When did respect for the Police end

Not so much recently, but in previous years there has been a bit of paranoia about photographing in public and harrassment from officers. When put into perspective it was just a handful of cases per year which as far as I can remember always resulted in an apology from the police. Compared with the millions of photographs which get taken without incident every year, the amount is negligible.

As for PCSOs not knowing the law - they, along with regular officers, always have the option of using their radios to contact the station for clarification

And whilst I agree with you about having respect for the police, if anyone is in a situation where they are not in agreement with an officer, it is easy to ask them to call the station for advice on a situation.


Steve.
 
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I don't think this is entirely new - after WW2, many people took the view that they had just fought a war for their freedom, and that included to be free from petty officialdom and "jobsworths" who were likened to the gestapo. I remember the time some pushy plod demanded of my (highly law abiding) long-dead father where he was going one evening, and received the curt reply "going about my lawful business officer, arrest me, or get out of my bloody way" (knowing the old man's presence, and him being an ex-army officer, it would have held the hint to "bloody well salute too":D)
 
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I meet with a police fire arms instructor every week with the work I do and I have the greatest respect for him.

I also count a number of police officers as personal friends whom I have the greatest respect for.

I have a general respect for the police

However respect is a 2 way street and I have come across some idiots that have been police officers

But being an idiot is not just the preserve of the police, you get idiots in all walks of life.
 
Keith W said:
I meet with a police fire arms instructor every week with the work I do and I have the greatest respect for him.

I also count a number of police officers as personal friends whom I have the greatest respect for.

I have a general respect for the police

However respect is a 2 way street and I have come across some idiots that have been police officers

But being an idiot is not just the preserve of the police, you get idiots in all walks of life.
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:thumbs:
 
big soft moose said:
@laudrup

if its the media or on youtube you didnt witness it :bang:

and also how do you know the photographers bernie dealt with werent breaking the law ? were you there ? or do you subscribe to the fond belief that photographers never break the law ?

blocking a pavement with a tripod = obstruction

photographing on private land and refusing to leave when asked by landowner or his agents = agravated tresspass

continually photographing a particular person who has asked you to stop = harrasment

getting shouty and agressive when asked to stop doing any of the above = breach of the peace

and thats without going into any of the more obstruse possibilities

the idea that the police are arresting people with 'made up laws' is a fiction except in a teeny minority of cases
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You miss the point entirely, again. If they weren't doing anything illegal then why would you be threatened with arrest? All of these Section 44 videos where police abused their power were nothing to do with setting up a tripod or the other ridiculous scenarios you are saying.
 
big soft moose said:
I think what loud burp is reffering to is a couple of videos posted on here last year where police officers (In fact in one case a PCSO) have been filmed incorrectly saying that you can't photograph in public.

They are of course wrong about that , as the ACPO letter makes clear, but in neither case was anyone arrested, and in both cases the photographer didnt help himself by getting loud and shouty rather than calm and reasonable. - also the videos do kind of overlook the point that while you do have the right to photograph in public, you also have the responsibility to act in a way that doesnt harm or impede others. (which is pretty much what the police in both cases were concerned about)

Personally if i was asked to move on by the police i would do so without question as arguing the toss isnt going to end well - however I can only think of one incident where moving on was necessary - every other time a polite explanation of what i was doing was all that was required before they went away happy.

at the end of the day you get what you ask for - and if you approach police officers with your mind already made up that they are corrupt scum out to impede your perfect right to do whatever you like (never mind what anyone else may think) then you have a far higher chance of the encounter ending badly.

If you have the midset , that for the most part they are people doing a hard and nasty job for the greater good, and treat them with respect - you have a much more pleasnt encounter.
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You kowtow if you like. If I'm doing nothing wrong then I won't be intimidated into submission.
 
Laudrup said:
You miss the point entirely, again. If they weren't doing anything illegal then why would you be threatened with arrest? All of these Section 44 videos where police abused their power were nothing to do with setting up a tripod or the other ridiculous scenarios you are saying.
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No you miss the point entirely - we arent just talking about sect 44 (indeed most of the videos in question have nothing to do with it) - and you answered your own question , if you were doing nothing illegal (or where there were suspicions of illegal activity) then you wouldnt be threatened with arrest - the fact is that most of the people in these videos were doing something, or at least suspected of doing something illegal ( a common scenario is that they'd gone on to private property (like a shopping centre) provoked security and been asked to leave then refused , leading to the police being called to remove them )

If you are on private land in a situation like the above ranting and raving about your right to photograph in a public place is totally futile - because you are not in a public place - you are in a private place where the public have access by permission
 
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Laudrup said:
You kowtow if you like. If I'm doing nothing wrong then I won't be intimidated into submission.
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you are quite correct if you are doing nothing wrong you won't be intimidated into submission - because the police won't even try as they have quite enough on their plate with those that are doing something wrong.

If on the other hand a policeman asks you to move along because you are causing an obstruction , or asks what you are photographing because someone else has reported suspicious activity - if you go off in his face shouting about your rights and waving your arms about - you will be doing something wrong and you quite rightly will get nicked for breach of the peace (if you are silly enough to push or hit the policeman they will also add assaulting a police officer)

If you calmly explain that you are doing nothing wrong (or move if you are indeed causing an obstruction) then they'll leave you alone and move on to dealing with the other 1000 plus things they have to worry about

Its nothing to do with kowtowing - its about behaving like a reasonable and responsible member of society and not getting photographers in general a bad name by being a bolshy street lawyer with an entitlement attitude and an inflated opinion of your own knowledge of the law
 
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big soft moose said:
Its nothing to do with kowtowing - its about behaving like a reasonable and responsible member of society and not getting photographers in general a bad name by being a bolshy street lawyer with an entitlement attitude and an inflated opinion of your own knowledge of the law
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:plusone:

however

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I was hoping that if I kept it talking the sun would come up and turn it to stone [/tolkein]
 
Re the amended Hillsborough statements. It is true that the reason given to the original enquiry was "to remove conjecture and opinion" from the statements however the independant panel in the most recent enquiry rejected this, saying the amendments went much further as any material "unhelpful to the force's case" was removed.

In other words, the panel thought it stank to high heaven, a view further supported by a number of officers who were present at Hillsborough that day, whose statements were amongst those which were altered, who have since gone on record voicing their concerns and disapproval.
 
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POAH said:
lets not forget plebgate either lol
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O yes, I can't remember exactly what happened but wasn't one of the "witnesses" that supported the Police's account later found to be a Policeman that wasn't anywhere near the scene at the time? :thinking:

It's easy to come across as anti-police when discussing these things but I'm honestly not. I have no axe to grind and support the Police 100% in their work - like I said, my Father was in the force for 30 years - but bloody hell, I'm not stupid either.

Edit: Here's the email, supposedly sent by someone who witnessed the whole thing but later a serving officer was arrested.

"...I was with my relative from Hong-Kong doing the usual site-seeing..."?
"...Other people/tourists standing with us were also shocked..."? (The CCTV shows no crowd and only a few passing people).
"...Is this what our country has come to when ELECTED Members of Parliament speak to police officers, who are doing a very under valued but extremely difficult job, as if they were something they have trodden on?..." :thinking:

It's worryingly devious if he did send it:

Dear Mr Randall,
I am resident in your constituency and have consistently supported and voted for you (and the Conservative Party) in passed [sic] elections. This is because I believe you are a man of the highest integrity who truly does believe in the welfare of his constituents.
This is evident by the good work you do for the area, in particular helping Ruislip HS2.
Unfortunately I write to you to complain about the absolutely digesting [sic] behaviour I was witness to yesterday, Wednesday 19th September 2012 about 7.30pm, display [sic] by your fellow Member of Parliament at Downing Street.
I was with my relative from Hong Kong doing the usual site seeing. After visiting Palace of Westminster and Westminster Abbey we walked down Whitehall to the gates of Downing Street, my nephew was hoping to catch a glimpse of the Prime Minister or other famous politician.
As we were waiting at the main gates of Downing Street, with several other tourists, he point [sic] to a man on a push bike coming up Downing Street. My nephew wanted to take a photograph of him as he mistakingly [sic] thought that this man was BORIS JOHNSON, but I corrected him, having a keen interest in politics and the Conservative Party, knew it was ANDREW MITCHELL – Member of Parliament for Sutton Coldfield.
Imagine to our horror when we heard MR MITCHELL shout very loudly at the police officers guarding “You [BLANK] PLEBES!!” [sic] and “YOU THINK YOU RUN THE [BLANK] COUNTRY” and just continued to should [sic] obscenities at the poor police officers. My nephew, as was I, totally taken aback by his, MR MITCHELLS’ [sic] behaviour and the gutter language he used, especially [sic] it appeared directed at the police officers.
Now I know that the other people/tourists standing with us were also shocked and some were even inadvertently filming the incident (it wouldn’t surprise me that in this age it’ll be on YouTube or other social media website [sic] ). One person even remarked as to why was BORIS swearing.
It was to one of the police officers credit that he calmly spoke to MR MITCHELL. I don’t know what he said but MR MITCHELL eventually left Downing Street by a side gate.
Is this what our country has come to when ELECTED Members of Parliament speak to police officers, who are doing a very under valued but extremely difficult job, as if they were something they have trodden on? And even if MR MITCHELL was having a difficult day, his yobbish/loutish behaviour is totally unacceptable.
I thought that as law abiding citizens we support our police but what example does MR MITCHELLs’ [sic] behaviour say “if you are in a position of authority or standing you can say and do whatever you like to the police” because you are simply more important than anyone else. Well shame on MR MITCHELL we all have bad days but the vast majority of us treated others as human beings and with civility. If MR MITCHELL is Chief Whip of the Conservative Party god help the Conservative Party.
I realise nothing will come of this letter, nor do I expect anything to. However I feel I had to write to you to express my sadness at witnessing such an event. I know that you would never behave or condone such actions as displayed by MR MITCHELL.
Keep up the good work
Kind regards
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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...ail-accusing-Andrew-Mitchell-of-swearing.html
 
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i dont think anyone is saying that there arent idiots among the police ranks, every walk of life has its fair share of bad apples.

However for every idiot there are far more hardworking honest cops who do a hard, nasty and dangerous job for not a great deal of pay who deserve our respect.

For an antidote to the various, unsubstantiated anti police stuff folks like lardrup are spouting , we could do worse than look here http://www.policememorial.org.uk/index.php?page=roll-2012

Do cops Like Ian Dibell (Whilst off duty in Clacton-on-Sea he had cause to intervene in an incident close to his home. Protecting the public from an armed male he sustained fatal gunshot wounds) or David John Rathband (On Sunday 4th July 2010 David was sat stationary in a patrol car, single crewed, on the outskirts of Newcastle. A lone gunman approached and using a shotgun shot David twice through the vehicle windows, leaving him for dead the gunman fled. David underwent extensive medical treatment, his eyesight couldn't be saved but he recovered and remained a police officer with Northumbria Police) and their various colleagues not deserve our respect ?

So far four cops have died in the line of duty during 2013 - there are virtually certain to be more before the year is out , there were 9 in 2012, and 12 in 2011 - do people like them and their colleagues deserve not to be respected because a tiny proportion of their peers may or may not have got the law wrong in a staged youtube video ?
 
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big soft moose said:
i dont think anyone is saying that there arent idiots among the police ranks, every walk of life has its fair share of bad apples.

However for every idiot there are far more hardworking honest cops who do a hard, nasty and dangerous job for not a great deal of pay who deserve our respect.

For an antidote to the various, unsubstantiated anti police stuff folks like lardrup are spouting , we could do worse than look here http://www.policememorial.org.uk/index.php?page=roll-2012

Do cops Like Ian Dibell (Whilst off duty in Clacton-on-Sea he had cause to intervene in an incident close to his home. Protecting the public from an armed male he sustained fatal gunshot wounds) or David John Rathband (On Sunday 4th July 2010 David was sat stationary in a patrol car, single crewed, on the outskirts of Newcastle. A lone gunman approached and using a shotgun shot David twice through the vehicle windows, leaving him for dead the gunman fled. David underwent extensive medical treatment, his eyesight couldn't be saved but he recovered and remained a police officer with Northumbria Police) and their various colleagues not deserve our respect ?

So far four cops have died in the line of duty during 2013 - there are virtually certain to be more before the year is out , there were 9 in 2012, and 12 in 2011 - do people like them and their colleagues deserve not to be respected because a tiny proportion of their peers may or may not have got the law wrong in a staged youtube video ?
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There's no doubt that many good Policemen, and women - remember Yvonne Fletcher, and the two WPC's killed by that scumbag last year (near Manchester?) - have paid dearly whilst serving the public. It is without doubt an extremely unpredictable, difficult and often dangerous job that deserves the highest respect.

When I was a youngster, my primary school was visited by a very brave ex-officer who, incidentally, my Father had worked with and knew very well. Arthur Rowlands was shot in the face and blinded by a burglar in the 60's whilst on duty. He visited our school with his blind-dog to give a talk about his experiences. I can remember it to this day, he was a lovely man and, from what my Father told me, a damn fine Policeman. Arthur, who recieved the George Medal for his bravery, died last year, aged 90.

http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/nor...linded-by-gunman-dies-aged-90-55578-32350656/
 
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Regardless of the 5 pages that followed the initial post, or whether you personally have had a less than great experience with the police, there was, and is no need for the bloke in that video to behave the way he did. From the conversation right at the start, they stopped him because he did a handbrake turn. So he was stopped because he was driving like a knob.. which is his own fault. He then proceeds to harrass them, verbally abuse them when all he had to do was say "Sorry... I was being a knob... I know it was wrong.. I was just showing off to my mates. I won't do it again, sorry". The police are perfectly entitled to stop you if they suspect something is wrong, and I'm glad they can because it means there's a greater chance that some Chav who steals my car will be stopped.

There's no argument that anyone in here has given that defends the behaviour of that piece of walking excrement in the video.

I don't care if there are bent coppers, or ones that get a bit bolshy now and again... they're all we have, and most put their own personal safety on the line day in day out, and while I've met some cops who were complete knobheads, in the main, they get my respect, and they should get yours too... because that's who you'll be running to for help when something happens.
 
Pookeyhead said:
Regardless of the 5 pages that followed the initial post ...
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there have always been knobheads like the guy in the video. They just didn't have the means to broadcast their attitude to the world.
 
Pookeyhead said:
Regardless of the 5 pages that followed the initial post, or whether you personally have had a less than great experience with the police, there was, and is no need for the bloke in that video to behave the way he did. From the conversation right at the start, they stopped him because he did a handbrake turn. So he was stopped because he was driving like a knob.. which is his own fault. He then proceeds to harrass them, verbally abuse them when all he had to do was say "Sorry... I was being a knob... I know it was wrong.. I was just showing off to my mates. I won't do it again, sorry". The police are perfectly entitled to stop you if they suspect something is wrong, and I'm glad they can because it means there's a greater chance that some Chav who steals my car will be stopped.

There's no argument that anyone in here has given that defends the behaviour of that piece of walking excrement in the video.

I don't care if there are bent coppers, or ones that get a bit bolshy now and again... they're all we have, and most put their own personal safety on the line day in day out, and while I've met some cops who were complete knobheads, in the main, they get my respect, and they should get yours too... because that's who you'll be running to for help when something happens.
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That's twice recently I've agreed with your view on something, I'm getting old :p
 
I think that respect for the uniform began to disappear when Hendon switched from teaching new recruits to act with an air of authority to teaching them to control a situation using fear and intimidation instead.
 
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