When did respect for the Police end

[big soft moose]

Don't the odds of killing a person dramatically increase with just a small rise in speed?

only if you hit them - perhaps we should also have fixed penalty tickets for jay walking to encourage pedestrians to stay out of harms way

 

[LCPete]

How else would they deal with speeding, the amount of people caught speeding every day is probably in the 10s of thousands

If they started handing out cautions through the courts it'd bring the system to a stop

You're not going to get a ticket for doing 33 in a 30 , even if you were doing 33 your speedo would be reading 35-36 so you should be well aware you're over the limit

People that have been prosecuted for doing 36 would have had 40mph showing on the dash

Exactly there is no excuse for speeding
I was out on my bike yesterday it doesn't like doing a constant 30 tho open the throttle a tiny bit more and its doing 35 , even so I stuck to the 30 limit
The moron behind me in the white van did not want to stick to the speed limit tailgated me all through the 30 limit

 

[Garry Edwards]

How else would they deal with speeding, the amount of people caught speeding every day is probably in the 10s of thousands

If they started handing out cautions through the courts it'd bring the system to a stop

You're not going to get a ticket for doing 33 in a 30 , even if you were doing 33 your speedo would be reading 35-36 so you should be well aware you're over the limit

People that have been prosecuted for doing 36 would have had 40mph showing on the dash

My middle son got a ticket for doing 33 in a 30 zone, a police officer was hiding in the bushes, 20 yards inside a 30 zone, where the road went from 60 to 30.

It was a good place to hide, because it's pretty certain that people going from the 60 zone to the 30 zone would be slightly over the limit at that point.

It's all very well to say that speed kills, but this wasn't about safety, it was about catching - and alienating - motorists.

 

[big soft moose]

because it's pretty certain that people going from the 60 zone to the 30 zone would be slightly over the limit at that point.
.

no - you are supposed to slow down before entering the lower limit - not afterwards.

so only those who don't follow the law and the highway code will get caught , as lawabiding drivers will be doing 30mph when they pass the sign, also if his ticket said 33mph , chances are he was doing 36 or so indicated - which is too fast for 20 yards into a 30 limit

 

[LCPete]

Don't the odds of killing a person dramatically increase with just a small rise in speed?

It's your responsibility as the driver of a moving 1.5 tonne hulk of metal and plastic to be concentrating and know what the limit is.

I'm not saying I've never sped, but I'd take it like a man when I got caught.

But we digress...

Agree I had a fright a couple of months ago driving through a 40 limit , a toddler wandered out into the road in front of me
I was doing 40 and was able to stop easily tho
My mate jumped out of the car and grabbed him and found where he lived took him home god knows why he was out at 7pm tho
If I was going much faster it may have ended differently

 

[neil_g]

only if you hit them - perhaps we should also have fixed penalty tickets for jay walking to encourage pedestrians to stay out of harms way

depends, can you cause "death by papping ones self"?

 

[cambsno]

It's all very well to say that speed kills, but this wasn't about safety, it was about catching - and alienating - motorists.

This.

We are in danger of turning this into another topic - speed - so this will be last post relating to speed. My point is that many people get 'let off' having comitted more serious offences and this for me is why I dont have as much respect for the justice system (includes police) as I should. Motorists are an easy target.

 

[nilagin]

I have plenty of respect for the Police, I've been stopped in my car a couple of times for things I've done and also been stopped because they felt like it. In all cases they were polite and did their job. I've no problems with them.
As for the motorist in the OP video, he obviously has no self respect, he just made himself look a right bell end.

 

[Garry Edwards]

This.

We are in danger of turning this into another topic - speed - so this will be last post relating to speed. My point is that many people get 'let off' having comitted more serious offences and this for me is why I dont have as much respect for the justice system (includes police) as I should. Motorists are an easy target.

I think that many of the perceptions about the police are actually due to problems within the so-called criminal justice system. I think it's pretty well known that the CPS (AKA Criminal Protection Service) are ultra cautious and that because of that, many real criminals aren't taken to Court. The police pretty much know what the prospects of a case going forward will be, and some of them just won't waste their time on a pointless paperwork exercise that will lead nowhere.

And again, some of the magistrates (and judges too come to that) seem to live on a different planet and breathe different air - again, not the fault of the police.

I think it's fair to say that if we go back far enough (70s, 80's) a LOT of frontline police officers were corrupt, dishonest bullies, and a lot of them thought nothing of giving false evidence to get convictions if they felt that the person was guilty - or the 'wrong' colour.

But that is now in the dim and distant past, and although there are still problems in senior ranks, frontline police have changed beyond recognition. I can't help wondering whether many of the people who are anti-police just don't get that.

 

[TriggerHappy]

The pattern of older generations complaining about a decrease in respect in younger generations can be traced back for centuries, so forgive me if I don't buy into the concept wholeheartedly.

My second point is that our youth is a product of the society that we have built for them, and the values we have instilled in them. Any decrease in respect, therefore, is the fault of the parents and society as a whole. It's all well and good to bitch and moan about things, but how does that address the problem? It only serves to alienate young people, and perpetuate any undesirable values (or lack of) rather than actually instil something better in them.

I could say more but it would stray into politics and one example I could give is rather more personal to someone on this forum so I'll have to leave it there.

 

[Steve Smith]

In all honesty there's very little respect for anyone these days, trouble is the youth of today is tommorows future what hope have we got!

As people were saying 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, etc. years ago!


Steve.

 

[Bernie174]

Garry

Again, you are spouting about things you know little about.
Police report facts to the CVPS, they decide if that person should be charged.
In times gone by, yes, we may well have taken the attitude, it's not worth the aggro, so ignore it (and to bge fair, we did that far more with traffic offences than 'crime'), but nowadays it's not so common. The IPCC with thier overuse of misconduct in public office means that Police officers simnply wont risk the probablity oif loosing thier job over something we would once have ignored.
The CPS assess cases on chance of conviction, 'public interest' (aka how much it will cost) and Guidelines issued by the attorney general. It's nothing to do with caution, it has everything to do with money, resources and what Governement tell them to do.

Simon
The clue is the big sign as you enter a 30 mile an hour limit. its a big 30. It is not a big 33/34/50/80/110.
If someone can't see a sign like that and comply with it, then what chance have they with a hazard? In other words, if they can't read road signs they have no right driving at all, let alone above the speed limit.

As for other people being let off? I have let far more people off for speeding and other traffic offences than I have crime, so that argument doesn't really hold water.

 

[phil8139]

Maybe it does lie with the parents......

I am with Bernie, and I follow this mantra - if you can't do the time then don't do the crime.

Yes most of us nudge over the limit, but if you get caught then take it like a man, same applies to all things really.

Criminal - Why are you arresting me? It's only a 40p chocolate bar......
Plod - Ah, ok, if it's only that then on your way, but if I catch you tomorrow stealing a bike from someone's shed.........

Zero tolerance will not work, but nipping things in the bud does help focus some peoples mind. The guy in the video should have been arrested for breathing, but hey ho - they won't give me a uniform.

I tell my kids, everything you do or say has a consequence, make sure you understand that before doing or saying

I like my kids, they are well balanced and respectful - remind me of me at their age

Phil.

 

[JohnUK]

When I was younger you wouldn't dare talk to police like this... This little scroat needs hauling out the car by his ears, given a good 'talking to' in the back of a police van and carting back home to mommy ! ...This country is getting far too soft.

 

[cambsno]

The pattern of older generations complaining about a decrease in respect in younger generations can be traced back for centuries, so forgive me if I don't buy into the concept wholeheartedly.

My second point is that our youth is a product of the society that we have built for them, and the values we have instilled in them. Any decrease in respect, therefore, is the fault of the parents and society as a whole. It's all well and good to bitch and moan about things, but how does that address the problem? It only serves to alienate young people, and perpetuate any undesirable values (or lack of) rather than actually instil something better in them.

I could say more but it would stray into politics and one example I could give is rather more personal to someone on this forum so I'll have to leave it there.

Agree - each generation changes, look at how the average Victorian lived, and the attitudes to women. We will moan at the next generation, as our grandparents did at ours.

I think blame is often used too often - its always someone elses fault... that person has not had a good start in life, broken home etc... we make far too many excuses. My nan (89) had her dad leave when she was 4, leaving her mum to cope with 4 children. She did, but in those days there was a close knit family to help.

Maybe the old fashioned way was best. Each family had a mum & dad, dad worked and bought in money, mum made a home. It was stable and gave a structure. Now its totally changed. Both parents out to work, less contact with one or both parents... but then many kids grew up in the 20s in single families due to WW1?

People also want something for nothing. We want to be rich quick, we take credit for everything rather than save, we want promotion tomorrow rather than work harder for it, we want to sue anyone we can, some people always take and never give like families with people who have never worked and wont work (or people who have 10 kids and expect the state to pay for more). Everything is short term. We follow rules not common sense.

But for me, I have become more cynical as I have got older. Rather than do as you would like to be done to you, I can see traits where its do as I expect to be done. I have been shafted by 2 employers over the years (1 massively), and it has left me with a selfish attitude to work based on that. Why should I put 100% into it when I will get knifed in the back?

Here is a moral argument - you find out your entitled to a benefit. You dont NEED the money, so would you claim it or not? I think in the old days you would not, as you could rely on the state to help if you needed it - but now I think you cant rely on that so you would claim it.

So thats my rationale... thats the lack of respect we have for everything not just the police.

 

[Nikon Man]

The police and law enforcement has changed beyond recognition for most of my generation as policing is done in an entirely different way now

Respect is the key word, it works both ways and if one side ignore that so will the other.

Recently pulled over by two traffic police as my car was flagged as stolen on their computer. Even after providing evidence that I was the owner they proceeded to insist I was lying and could be arrested. In a flash bang moment I remembered I had some photos in the glove box of me standing by the car 3 years ago in Scotland on holiday, the one policeman saw the light and said they would give me benefit of the doubt. !! What pathetic excuse for not saying sorry. They were guided not by common sense but a mistake on their database about my car details.. Computers......crap in crap out.

The number of of times I was told it was in my interest to tell the truth was a farcical. At one point I was asked if I was getting irritated and might be arrested for breach of the peace, since when is that an arrestable offense?

They realized they were going to not get a result and thought they might provoke me into whatever. They were a pair of playground bully boys unable to admit they were completely wrong.

Respect was a word missed out in police training maybe?

 

[Steve Smith]

At one point I was asked if I was getting irritated and might be arrested for breach of the peace, since when is that an arrestable offense?

It isn't.

It's not an arrestable offence either!


Steve.

 

[Gr8Shot]

i worked in a school for a while as a network administrator. The language and behaviour i witnessed to both teacher and support staff was attrocious.
Respect from youngsters is almost gone to all adults, not just the Police. But there are still a few that are good kids.

But one thing i learnt (and i have a very rough upbringing so i know what i'm talking about) is this.
If you shout and ball at them and bring yourself down to their level, then that is a victory for them. If you keep calm and try to interact with them ina a adult resposible fashion, then some and i reapet some will react positively in return. the rest - well there is no hope.
But they had no preconceptions or learned abilites when they were born, this style of behaviour comes from one place and that is the home.....

 

[viv1969]

may be if the police arrived at the scene in a lambourghini gulardo with phat tunez with a thudding bass playing instead of a siren, wore several yards (or should that be yardz) of gold chain instead of body armour , carried a highly polished sig sauer handgun, and had tears tattoed on their cheeks for each scrote they''d arrested then they'd get more 'respec' from the kidz :nuts:

They could also bring the arrest declaration up to date

" Yo hear me now, you is under da arrest dawg , you has the right to remain silent an that, you has the right to da attorney , you down with that bro ? ... "

Too classy a car....gotta be a Scooby.

 

[munch]

Respect is definitely a two way street. Go to almost any (ex)mining village and if they showed no respect to the police that would be progress. Ask a black guy who has been stopped for the forth time this week because he has a decent car. Having said that the Met police do have Operation Trident that is mainly aimed at the "gun culture" within the Afro-Caribbean community.

Things like the cover up following the Hillsborough Disaster and the policing of the pro hunt rallies, (bearing in mind most of those there would be deemed pro police) The death at the G20 protests in London does not help.

The fly on the wall documentaries, that show police making calls whilst in a moving vehicle or giving chase, where the commentator talks about how dangerous it was for the car being pursued to overtake on a blind bend only for the police car to do the same

The other side is the criticism that the police will do nothing when more often than not it is the CPS or the courts that are at fault.

I too have come across some arrogant/bullying cops, but I have also come across some excellent ones who have been more than helpful.

 

[Bernie174]

Steve

B of P is an offence with a power of arrest. Yes, it was an arrestable offence when there was such a thing, in that the power of arrest was prescribed by law.

munch

Not sure that you are laying blame in the right place there.
Hunt legislation was passed by Government, Police have little option but to enforce. Hillsbrough 'cover up'? You've clearly not read what the report says, just listened to the press on the subject. It isn't quite as they and you have put it. And G20? Not guilty of manslaughter, so again, its you making a connection unsupported by evidence.

However, you're right, there's good and bad on both sides. Clearly chummy in the video that set all this off was the bad side. I've seen some bad policing. What is important here though is that 99% of police do what they think is right. 50% of the public aren't going to like that because it wont go their way.

Police can't win, and never have been able too. Thats why Peel in his principles of policing said that police should not be judged on popularity, but on the absence or reduction in crime. That was in an age where the CJS was totally different. While the second measure can't therefore be used, the first unfortunately does hold true.

 

[Steve Smith]

B of P is an offence with a power of arrest.

I thought it was just a cautionable offence. With the option to arrest to prevent a further breach or other crime. It's certainly not punishable.


Steve.

 

[Richard King]

Garry

Again, you are spouting about things you know little about.
Police report facts to the CVPS, they decide if that person should be charged.
In times gone by, yes, we may well have taken the attitude, it's not worth the aggro, so ignore it (and to bge fair, we did that far more with traffic offences than 'crime'), but nowadays it's not so common.

A lot of the perception comes from watching police stop type programmes, where the scroat who has no tax, insurance and MOT, who leads the police on a wild goose chase, is often just cautioned or slapped on the wrists with a community order. While this isn't the police's fault, people will perceive the system as a bit twisted. Especially as when they speed and do 30 something in a 30 limit they get an instant fine and points on the licence

 

[munch]

Bernie, you miss my point whether there was a cover up at Hilsborough (I actually happen to believe senior officers did get it wrong as did the coroner in his "Death deadline" and I say that as someone who was indirectly involved in Hillsborough and its aftermath) or whether a police officer killed a man at the G20 meeting is not the point, the point is it is how people percieve the police.

As for your comments about the pro hunt protests (I am talking about the rallies held in London), the police were on occasions heavy handed.

 

[cambsno]

A lot of the perception comes from watching police stop type programmes, where the scroat who has no tax, insurance and MOT, who leads the police on a wild goose chase, is often just cautioned or slapped on the wrists with a community order. While this isn't the police's fault, people will perceive the system as a bit twisted. Especially as when they speed and do 30 something in a 30 limit they get an instant fine and points on the licence

That was the point I was trying to make - well put!

 

[Gr8Shot]

The professional working man is the easiest to fine etc
He wants a career so he'll just pay
He cant really afford to fight it in court so again he pays
He wont really argue and risk more bother in case his work sacks him
He has everything to lose and not a lot to gain

Scumbag on the street is complete opposite......

 

[ZoneV]

No cover up at Hillsborough? Are you sure about that, Bernie?

In highly-charged Commons scenes, David Cameron offered a “profound” apology to the families of the 96 Hillsborough victims for the catastrophic mistakes that led to their deaths, the attempts to suggest that Liverpool supporters were to blame for the tragedy, and the 23-year wait to establish the truth.

MPs of all parties expressed their horror and shock at the catalogue of errors revealed by today’s report and at the extent of the efforts to cover them up.

There were gasps in the chamber and MPs appeared close to tears as Mr Cameron revealed that dozens of fans might have survived the fatal crush had they received swifter medical attention. Many were also clearly stunned when the Prime Minister said a former MP had conspired with police to distort the official record on what had happened at Hillsborough

Weren't loads of officers notes altered to show a more favourable reality?

Edit: Here we are, from 3:12 makes for grim listening:

[youtube]BWKnjpzb9LE[/youtube]

"...we do the many, many honourable Policemen and women a great disservice if we try to defend the indefensible."

 

[big soft moose]

Too classy a car....gotta be a Scooby.

lol - or a lowered corsa with an undeclared redtop conversion , and a bunch of inexpertly fitted body kit

 

[andya700]

The professional working man is the easiest to fine etc
He wants a career so he'll just pay
He cant really afford to fight it in court so again he pays
He wont really argue and risk more bother in case his work sacks him
He has everything to lose and not a lot to gain

Scumbag on the street is complete opposite......

Well said Steve, I totally agree with everything which you have said there.
The honest man, who slips up once in a lifetime, is treated far worse than the habitual criminal, and I have three incidents from the past six years to prove it.
Maybe it is the police, maybe it is the CPS - who knows?
Something is very wrong about this country and the message it is giving out to the criminal classes.

 

[Gr8Shot]

Cheers Andy
Glad to know someone agrees.

 

[cambsno]

Cheers Andy
Glad to know someone agrees.

Agree too

 

[Pookeyhead]

If ever there was an argument for eugenics.. this is it.

 

[big soft moose]

I'm hoping you mean the video- not ther discussion that followed it

 

[POAH]

because of they way people are treated by them pure and simple.

up until recently my friend has nothing but praise for them but after an encounter where she was a witness she thinks they are nothing but cheating lying "swear word". unfortunately the power does go to their heads and the service makes them worse. obviously I don't think every single police person is like that but that's the opinion you have in your head.

police behaving badly has more impact in the news and gossip than police doing good.

the scum also know they are not going to get a wack from them anymore (same goes for school)

 

[big soft moose]

the way some people are treated by some of them might be more accurate - personally i have nothing buty respect for the officers ive met and worked with - and they have a pretty low opinion of the actions of the tiny minority who bring the force into disrepute

 

[jacob12_1993]

As a young guy (20 today) it is very interesting to hear people's opinions of young people today. I agree with the notion that there has been a decrease in general respect, I have noticed that in my lifetime and having younger siblings it makes it even more visible so I'm not going to disagree with it.

The main problem for me however lies when the blame is placed on the youth of this nation. The morals and ethics of today's young people is directly related to the changes in family and social dynamics over the last 20-30 years. The quality of parenting and discipline is the main reason for the way many people have grown up. We now live in a country where people know the price of everything but the value of nothing and showing respect to older people is something often forgotten.

However as I said before the blame doesn't lie solely with the young people it lies heavily with the people who are of the age to make the decisions, do you think that respect in young people would be as bad if discipline in schools was increased, if the numbers of broken homes and teenage pregnancies were decreased or what about if minor offences such as vandalism and shoplifting were clamped down upon instead of being ignored?
How about if people helped nurture young children aspirations and gave them dreams to aim for. What do they have currently to look forward too?

A world were everyone is out for themselves, where you are pressured into achieving at school from a young age, where to go to university means saddling yourself with £45K of debt, where getting a job with little experience is harder than claiming money from the state, where buying your own first house is borderline impossible?

Then translate all this to how they see the world. How do you expect them to react to a world which is so ruthless? For me the police is just one service which is in the firing line for this instilled anger and hatred and it is not just the police but a society- wide attitude which has resulted in a decrease in general respect.

However with this in mind don't tar all young people with the same brush. I know many young people who give up their entire spare time around studying to work helping elderly or disabled or homeless people. Those young people who will do anything to make society a better place and those who despite how grim the outlook is for the rest of their lives will go out and work hard to achieve their goals and do well in life. At the end of the day every generation and walk of life has the people who work through the adversities life throws at them and it also has those who blame society for everything that is wrong with them and take no personal responsibility for anything.

 

[phil8139]

A fantastic post Jacob, I also feel that society in general is more interested in bad news, bad mouthing and negativity. You have a strong and healthy view and at such a young(ish) age.

There will always be polarising views, but as a country we need a visionary with strong and powerful personality to carry us out of the downward spiral. There is a feeling among many that the future is bleak, and without any direction to get back on track we are lost.

That is not the fault of the police, or any other body. It's the fault of society and those who do nothing to change it.

 

[Russ77]

The professional working man is the easiest to fine etc
He wants a career so he'll just pay
He cant really afford to fight it in court so again he pays
He wont really argue and risk more bother in case his work sacks him
He has everything to lose and not a lot to gain

Scumbag on the street is complete opposite......

Well said Steve, I totally agree with everything which you have said there.
The honest man, who slips up once in a lifetime, is treated far worse than the habitual criminal, and I have three incidents from the past six years to prove it.
Maybe it is the police, maybe it is the CPS - who knows?
Something is very wrong about this country and the message it is giving out to the criminal classes.

I sadly have to agree with these comments as a "professional working man".....

There was an incident I got told about by a local police officer. In the same day on the same stretch of road they caught 2 motorists for 2 different offences.

Once was a jobless layabout caught with no license, no MOT tax or insurance.

The other was a "professional man" fully licensed, MOT'd, taxed and insured but performed a u-turn cutting across a grass central reservation. Didn't cause a problem to any other road users but was just by chance seen by the police.

One of the above received 4 points and a £500 fine, the other got a £60 fine a a few hours community service. I'll let you work out which person got what....... gotta love means testing though!

The bottom line IMO is who was the biggest threat to other road users? From what I see on these police documentaries, people with no license, tax, insurance are usually connected with other crimes or "social problems".

 

[Steve Smith]

gotta love means testing though

All fines should be means tested.

A £100 fine is much more of a deterrent to an averagely paid person than it is to a millionaire.

However with this in mind don't tar all young people with the same brush.

Agreed. It is common to tar all people of any group we are not in (not just the young) with the brush of the minority.


Steve.

 

[big soft moose]

thats not really the polices fault though - in both cases they treated the offender the same, ie arrested/charged etc - the fault in the differential of punishment lies with cps/courts/dvla

round here no tax, insurance or mot, would result in car confiscated and crushed