When are people going to realise

[imattersuk]

Some very stereotypical posts and generalised assumptions above. My D780 is a grey import and at no time did I harm the UK retail industry (which doesn't need any help from me to fall by the wayside) or break any laws.

Had I not been able to buy the camera at the price I paid I would still be using my aged D750 so the retail industry is no worse off. On import, I informed HMRC and paid the duties they requested in full, and have the receipts to prove it which enable me to get service and repair work done by Nikon UK.

Yes, even after paying HMRC I am still several hundreds of pounds better off than buying on the high street. I'm happy with that as it is not my place, as a consumer, to pay inflated prices to keep high street businesses in business.

Paying the vat gives you no more right to have it serviced or repaired by Nikon UK, they will repair a grey import for the same fee as they charge everyone.

 

[BillN_33]

but the Nikon Z9 is £1,500 cheaper at Panamoz versus the UK on-line stores!

Park Cameras = £5,000

Panamoz = £3,549

If you say, (and I don't) that the Panamoz price excludes VAT - if you add 20%, (say £700), to £3,549 ......... it's considerably below £5k - UK dealers are making significant profits

When are people going to realise?

 

[Bristolian]

Paying the vat gives you no more right to have it serviced or repaired by Nikon UK, they will repair a grey import for the same fee as they charge everyone.

Sorry, my sentence should have said "serviced or repaired by Nikon UK under warranty". I have a letter stating this.

 

[imattersuk]

but the Nikon Z9 is £1,500 cheaper at Panamoz versus the UK on-line stores!

Park Cameras = £5,000

Panamoz = £3,549

If you say, (and I don't) that the Panamoz price excludes VAT - if you add 20%, (say £700), to £3,549 ......... it's considerably below £5k - UK dealers are making significant profits

When are people going to realise?

It's not the dealers making the profit it's Nikon, dealer margins are small and they have huge overheads.

 

[BillN_33]

It's not the dealers making the profit it's Nikon, dealer margins are small and they have huge overheads.

Are you sure?

so I'll buy from Panamoz and volunteer to Pay UK VAT and still save £700+

 

[Eucris]

It's not the dealers making the profit it's Nikon, dealer margins are small and they have huge overheads.

So for a UK shop selling Canon or Nikon equipment, what is the supply chain?

 

[imattersuk]

Are you sure?

so I'll buy from Panamoz and volunteer to Pay UK VAT and still save £700+

100% certain, it's the manufacturers that set the RRP and we are deemed as gullible fools that will pay more for the same product that they sell for much less in Asia.

 

[imattersuk]

So for a UK shop selling Canon or Nikon equipment, what is the supply chain?

It varies, some are via a distributor, some direct. It may surprise you to know that the Fujifilm House Of Photography isn't staffed by Fujifilm, it's outsourced to this mob;

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[Craikeybaby]

But I would assume that if the majority of Fujifilm customers imported their equipment from abroad, there would not be a Fujifilm House of Photography in London, nor their (excellent) service centre.

 

[imattersuk]

But I would assume that if the majority of Fujifilm customers imported their equipment from abroad, there would not be a Fujifilm House of Photography in London, nor their (excellent) service centre.

I've never seen massive savings on Fuji gear from HK apart from lenses at einfinity, sometimes Panamoz prices are higher than UK, X-T5 I bought recently was retailing at £1449 here, £1499 einfinity, £1600 Panamoz.

 

[Deleted member 95430]

At Mods, could we please move this conversation- it doesn’t seem to follow the guidelines of this particular sub forum, its very lounge esque now

 

[Cobra]

At Mods, could we please move this conversation- it doesn’t seem to follow the guidelines of this particular sub forum, its very lounge esque now

Let me think, what is being discussed here?
Camera's, manufactures of camera's and camera prices.
Sounds like it's a photography discussion to me.
The lounge is for non- photographic chat.

This is the second time you have made this request, in here and not the first time you have made a similar requests elsewhere.
I would suggest that as you are not interested in the discussion, stay away.

 

[Deleted member 68495]

Just looked at a Singapore camera shop (Cathay Photo) using a VPN server in Singapore and a new Nikon Z9 is $(Sing)7249 (Including tax) which is just under £4300. WEX are selling it at £5300. B&H in the States are selling it for $5646, which is currently about £4450, In Germany (at a random Berlin camera shop), for example, it equates to about £5159.

In general, from my little survey, it can be seen that buyers in the UK seem to pay the highest price for this particular camera in most of the known world. I'm not a Panamoz user and the camera equipment I buy is not that expensive, so I wouldn't make much of a saving, but they are selling the Nikon Z9 for £3560, almost a thousand quid lower than even a Singapore shop and if I was in the markey for a Z9 I couldn't really turn down that much of a reduction despite my reservations about debateable tax operations.

 

[Faldrax]

Just looked at a Singapore camera shop (Cathay Photo) using a VPN server in Singapore and a new Nikon Z9 is $(Sing)7249 (Including tax) which is just under £4300. WEX are selling it at £5300. B&H in the States are selling it for $5646, which is currently about £4450, In Germany (at a random Berlin camera shop), for example, it equates to about £5159.

In general, from my little survey, it can be seen that buyers in the UK seem to pay the highest price for this particular camera in most of the known world. I'm not a Panamoz user and the camera equipment I buy is not that expensive, so I wouldn't make much of a saving, but they are selling the Nikon Z9 for £3560, almost a thousand quid lower than even a Singapore shop and if I was in the markey for a Z9 I couldn't really turn down that much of a reduction despite my reservations about debateable tax operations.

B&H Prices will be exclusive of sales tax, so you need to add 20% VAT to make the prices comparable (the actual cost in the USA will depend on where in the States you are, as sales tax can vary considerably).
£4450 + 20% = £5340, so it would seem Wex are selling at a price very close to that of B&H.

 

[Phil V]

WEX are selling it at £5300. B&H in the States are selling it for $5646, which is currently about £4450, In Germany (at a random Berlin camera shop), for example, it equates to about £5159.

Add tax to the us price (as they’re advertised ex tax) and it’s closer to the Germany price which isn’t exactly a massive saving on the GB price.

And straight up you can see that the Singapore price isn’t just massively different to the U.K., it’s different to the Europe and the US.

Edit
Cross posted with the above - but NY sales tax is less than 10%

 

[Deleted member 68495]

Yes, I forgot US prices are exclusive of State and City tax; the Singapore price does include local tax though so it is considerably cheaper.

I wasn't saying that the UK pay considerably more -- although reading it, it does sound like I am -- but it has to be said that the Panamoz price is vastly lower than all the other prices, whether or not this is just down to not paying any tax at all and having few overheads I wouldn't like to say, but you can see why people buy from them and other grey importers.

I'll still pay UK prices though, just for the ease of getting things sorted under warranty without the hassle,

 

[LCPete]

Yes, I forgot US prices are exclusive of State and City tax; the Singapore price does include local tax though so it is considerably cheaper.

I wasn't saying that the UK pay considerably more -- although reading it, it does sound like I am -- but it has to be said that the Panamoz price is vastly lower than all the other prices, whether or not this is just down to not paying any tax at all and having few overheads I wouldn't like to say, but you can see why people buy from them and other grey importers.

I'll still pay UK prices though, just for the ease of getting things sorted under warranty without the hassle,

Good point about warranty but actually Panamoz give a 3 year warranty and when my camera needed repair a few days ago they suggested that I send it to Canon UK and paid me for the cost of the repair

 

[Phil V]

Yes, I forgot US prices are exclusive of State and City tax; the Singapore price does include local tax though so it is considerably cheaper.

I wasn't saying that the UK pay considerably more -- although reading it, it does sound like I am -- but it has to be said that the Panamoz price is vastly lower than all the other prices, whether or not this is just down to not paying any tax at all and having few overheads I wouldn't like to say, but you can see why people buy from them and other grey importers.

I'll still pay UK prices though, just for the ease of getting things sorted under warranty without the hassle,

As above; if warranty is your reason not to buy grey, it’s the wrong reason.

Not only was Pete’s repair hassle free, if bought from the UK the camera would have been out of warranty.

 

[4wd]

Twenty years ago we might have gone into York or even Leeds to look at a good range of cameras but these days the very idea fills me with dread as driving and parking there would cost a small fortune and take all day. At every stage you are seen as a cash cow while simultaneously made to feel unwelcome if not a total nuisance.
That's no fun it is more satisfying to research online on and off for a couple of evenings then order and things arrive usually incredibly swiftly often next day.

 

[Sangoma]

Twenty years ago we might have gone into York or even Leeds to look at a good range of cameras but these days the very idea fills me with dread as driving and parking there would cost a small fortune and take all day. At every stage you are seen as a cash cow while simultaneously made to feel unwelcome if not a total nuisance.
That's no fun it is more satisfying to research online on and off for a couple of evenings then order and things arrive usually incredibly swiftly often next day.

Very similar in Coventry, parking is now a nightmare, they have reduced places so much.

We had two model shops here, one small one, had nearly everything you need, but they would leave you if one of their mates came in.
The other bigger one, the staff would arrive 20-25 minutes after opening time, then stand around talking about their nights out and their girlfriends. Nearly got to the door on my way out after a ten minute wait one day (the last time Iwent there) when one asked could he help. I told him not to worry I didn't want to disturb his chat.
I started buying from HobbyKing, never went to the shops again, Couple of years later, they had gone

We had two camera shops, Jessops and a small local one. Jessops may have survived with decent management, and the smaller one would have survived if they had been pleased that customers came into their shop, instead of thinking they were doing customers a favour for being there. Pity, they weren't too bad on stock and prices, and they lasted much longer than Jessops.

Similar story with a hifi shop we had here,

Combination of poor service, lack of transport and parking and the costs of both, stupidly high rents and business rates, was just too much for them

 

[Phil V]

Twenty years ago we might have gone into York or even Leeds to look at a good range of cameras but these days the very idea fills me with dread as driving and parking there would cost a small fortune and take all day. At every stage you are seen as a cash cow while simultaneously made to feel unwelcome if not a total nuisance.
That's no fun it is more satisfying to research online on and off for a couple of evenings then order and things arrive usually incredibly swiftly often next day.

I sincerely hope I never lose my joy for life the way you have.
I don’t generally drive into either if I’m there for leisure, as there’s too many great pubs and interesting eateries to drive home from.
York is one of the most beautiful cities in the country, with a fantastic atmosphere (if a little busy and touristy).

Leeds is vibrant, with loads of cool shops, bars and restaurants.

I’ve no problem with buying online, but not venturing into great city centres for those reasons is a bit sad.

 

[Deleted member 68495]

I drive into Plymouth quite a lot. Parking is ok-priced at about five quid for 4 hours and there is plenty of it, never a problem finding a space. London Camera Exchange are there and are friendly as always, but they obviously only have in stock the latest consumer cameras and if you want anything a little more esoteric (and I include here almost everything DSLR-related (old hat I suppose)) then they have to order it in; which they will do, but then I might as well order it on line and send it back if I don't like it.

I'd say it's a shame but it's the way of everything and we are all going to have to deal with it in our own way. The likes of Jessops of Leicester (as it was then) and Fishwicks have long gone, Amateur Photographer is a shadow of its former self (albeit a lot of the mag was adverts in the seventies and eighties) and film is all but defunked aside from the determined and dedicated followers willing to pay rather larger sums of money for film and processing than ever before; things have just changed.

I still think 'proper' photography is still relevant, even with the advent of camera phones that everyone has, I just feel we have to rethink the ways and means we go about it. This includes what method we actually use to purchase what we want, be it grey import, official, or second-hand (my preferred method these days). We are all doomed anyway, might as well go down enjoying ourselves and if you can make it cost a little less than it could, then go for it.

 

[Haych]

I drive into Plymouth quite a lot. Parking is ok-priced at about five quid for 4 hours and there is plenty of it, never a problem finding a space. London Camera Exchange are there and are friendly as always, but they obviously only have in stock the latest consumer cameras and if you want anything a little more esoteric (and I include here almost everything DSLR-related (old hat I suppose)) then they have to order it in; which they will do, but then I might as well order it on line and send it back if I don't like it.

They had loads more stuff in the shop when they were down in Frankfort Gate. They have relocated to a nicer part of town now (where rent and rates are probably more of a burden.... knowing PCC) and they were next door to Michael Spiers before they relocated closer to the Mall. They no longer stock Lee filters and as you say they can order stuff in. I guess they have to stock the stuff that they know they can sell in this part of the country.... which is probably why they no longer stock Lee filters as the general consumer is not likely to buy an expensive set of filters to accompany their new dSLR or mirrorless with kit lens.

I'd say it's a shame but it's the way of everything and we are all going to have to deal with it in our own way. The likes of Jessops of Leicester (as it was then) and Fishwicks have long gone, Amateur Photographer is a shadow of its former self (albeit a lot of the mag was adverts in the seventies and eighties) and film is all but defunked aside from the determined and dedicated followers willing to pay rather larger sums of money for film and processing than ever before; things have just changed.

I have 2 rolls of Velvia 50 that were £15 a roll... I sometimes struggle to find the time to go out for "proper photography" and because of that I want to see more instant results - where sometimes I would take a couple months to shoot a roll of 36 it was both time consuming for the results after spending almost as much or more to have the slides processed.

I dabbled with 6x6 MF as only 12 exposures on a roll but even then it was a case of sending the film off to Ilford Labs as the local processors that could do silver halide were inept at scanning the negs and parts of the exposure were missed off the negs.... so I stopped using them after the first time when I told them that they haven't got the full 6x6 frame scanned and they tried to BS me with some rubbish but the bottom line was that was how the negs were scanned.

I still think 'proper' photography is still relevant, even with the advent of camera phones that everyone has, I just feel we have to rethink the ways and means we go about it. This includes what method we actually use to purchase what we want, be it grey import, official, or second-hand (my preferred method these days). We are all doomed anyway, might as well go down enjoying ourselves and if you can make it cost a little less than it could, then go for it.

People that have a real interest and passion for "proper photography" will always favour a real camera and if they do portraiture will invest in good quality lighting equipment and landscapers will invest in filters. The camera phone is for the social media needy.

 

[Deleted member 68495]

They had loads more stuff in the shop when they were down in Frankfort Gate. They have relocated to a nicer part of town now (where rent and rates are probably more of a burden.... knowing PCC) and they were next door to Michael Spiers before they relocated closer to the Mall. They no longer stock Lee filters and as you say they can order stuff in. I guess they have to stock the stuff that they know they can sell in this part of the country.... which is probably why they no longer stock Lee filters as the general consumer is not likely to buy an expensive set of filters to accompany their new dSLR or mirrorless with kit lens.

You're right, it was a much busier-looking shop at Frankfort Gate. I ordered a camera from them and went to pick it up a few years ago. I hadn't been to LCE there for quite a few years and was unaware it had moved, but it was worse than that. I thought I must have Alzheimer's or was having a stroke or something, because not only had the shop disappeared, but the footbridge to the old Toys R Us car park had gone too. I genuinely thought I must have the wrong street for a short time!

 

[Sangoma]

You're right, it was a much busier-looking shop at Frankfort Gate. I ordered a camera from them and went to pick it up a few years ago. I hadn't been to LCE there for quite a few years and was unaware it had moved, but it was worse than that. I thought I must have Alzheimer's or was having a stroke or something, because not only had the shop disappeared, but the footbridge to the old Toys R Us car park had gone too. I genuinely thought I must have the wrong street for a short time!

Lots of things have disappeared there.

Used to be very different. Have you been there long enough to remember Reeds?

 

[NCV]

I do not live in Britain, but I live in another European nation.

I buy my Nikon gear from Nital, who are the agents for Italy. I have recently had to use their repair services for a couple of accidents I had with some gear. The charges were fair and I got a discount on parts. Their repair branch does a good job with repairs. They will repair Nikon gear bought in the EU/UK, without a parts discount. But they will not repair grey imports.

So here if you have a malfunction or accident with a camera or lens that you source from a grey importer, you probably have a nice paper weight, as independent repair shops are getting very thin on the ground.

I strongly believe that the initial savings one achieves by buying "grey" are not worth the risk, as s*** happens with gear, and sometimes one needs to get things repaired.

 

[Craikeybaby]

Very similar in Coventry, parking is now a nightmare, they have reduced places so much.

We had two model shops here, one small one, had nearly everything you need, but they would leave you if one of their mates came in.
The other bigger one, the staff would arrive 20-25 minutes after opening time, then stand around talking about their nights out and their girlfriends. Nearly got to the door on my way out after a ten minute wait one day (the last time Iwent there) when one asked could he help. I told him not to worry I didn't want to disturb his chat.
I started buying from HobbyKing, never went to the shops again, Couple of years later, they had gone

We had two camera shops, Jessops and a small local one. Jessops may have survived with decent management, and the smaller one would have survived if they had been pleased that customers came into their shop, instead of thinking they were doing customers a favour for being there. Pity, they weren't too bad on stock and prices, and they lasted much longer than Jessops.

Similar story with a hifi shop we had here,

Combination of poor service, lack of transport and parking and the costs of both, stupidly high rents and business rates, was just too much for them

But just down the road we have LCE in Leamington Spa, where you can usually park on the road pretty much outside, and they are always really helpful and knowledgeable.

 

[Deleted member 68495]

Lots of things have disappeared there.

Used to be very different. Have you been there long enough to remember Reeds?

I don't live in Plymouth but about 25 miles away and in my early years here I didn't go there very much. Been here for 23 years now.

 

[TimHughes]

I do not live in Britain, but I live in another European nation.

I buy my Nikon gear from Nital, who are the agents for Italy. I have recently had to use their repair services for a couple of accidents I had with some gear. The charges were fair and I got a discount on parts. Their repair branch does a good job with repairs. They will repair Nikon gear bought in the EU/UK, without a parts discount. But they will not repair grey imports.

So here if you have a malfunction or accident with a camera or lens that you source from a grey importer, you probably have a nice paper weight, as independent repair shops are getting very thin on the ground.

I strongly believe that the initial savings one achieves by buying "grey" are not worth the risk, as s*** happens with gear, and sometimes one needs to get things repaired.

I agree. I'm also not in the UK and always buy from a "bricks and mortar" shop. I'm happy to pay the premium for the peace of mind if anything goes wrong.

 

[Sangoma]

But just down the road we have LCE in Leamington Spa, where you can usually park on the road pretty much outside, and they are always really helpful and knowledgeable.

Thanks, didn't even know they were there!! Will definitely be looking in future

 

[Sangoma]

I don't live in Plymouth but about 25 miles away and in my early years here I didn't go there very much. Been here for 23 years now.

Reeds has been gone since the early 70s, they and many other businesses closed when the western approach went in, I think Toys R Us went up shortly after, times are a bit hazy because by that time I was at school in Truro before moving to SA.
I didn't live there either, we lived in Newton Ferrers, and I went to Plymouth College Prep, and one of my parents would go into town most days for TV spares

 

[gramps]

always buy from a "bricks and mortar" shop. I'm happy to pay the premium for the peace of mind if anything goes wrong.

Hmmm - here today, gone tomorrow seems to be the theme of the thread.

 

[LCPete]

I do not live in Britain, but I live in another European nation.

I buy my Nikon gear from Nital, who are the agents for Italy. I have recently had to use their repair services for a couple of accidents I had with some gear. The charges were fair and I got a discount on parts. Their repair branch does a good job with repairs. They will repair Nikon gear bought in the EU/UK, without a parts discount. But they will not repair grey imports.

So here if you have a malfunction or accident with a camera or lens that you source from a grey importer, you probably have a nice paper weight, as independent repair shops are getting very thin on the ground.

I strongly believe that the initial savings one achieves by buying "grey" are not worth the risk, as s*** happens with gear, and sometimes one needs to get things repaired.

that’s a shame that Nikon in Italy have that policy , someone could buy a second hand camera and not realise that it’s a grey import, I’m not sure about Nikon policy in the uk though
Canon will repair and service camera gear that’s grey , if course it isn’t covered by Canon warranty, as I mentioned before my camera is a grey import and the grey import Company I bought it from has a 3 year warranty and advised me to send it to Canon uk for warranty repair and paid the cost

 

[Bristolian]

Nikon UK will repair grey import equipment but, obviously, not under warranty so you have to pay. I have a letter from Nikon UK confirming this. Like LCPete my D780 has a 3 year Panamoz warranty so I'm not too worried about getting it repaired if the time comes.

 

[LeeRatters]

I wonder if the OP sold his camera gear in the end?

 

[Nikon photographer]

So for a UK shop selling Canon or Nikon equipment, what is the supply chain?

All Nikon UK stock comes from Nikon B.V (The Netherlands) as do all the other Nikon dealers in Europe, I purchased my original D70 in Spain, and registered it with Nikon U.K, as long as you have proof of purchase from anywhere in Europe, you're covered for any warranty work.

 

[Don Fischer]

Nikon UK will repair grey import equipment but, obviously, not under warranty so you have to pay. I have a letter from Nikon UK confirming this. Like LCPete my D780 has a 3 year Panamoz warranty so I'm not too worried about getting it repaired if the time comes.

If I bought say a Nikon gray import, who made it? And if Nikon made it why won't they honor the warrantee?

 

[Deleted member 68495]

If I bought say a Nikon gray import, who made it? And if Nikon made it why won't they honor the warrantee?

Because they will say that because they did not supply it through officially approved channels, they have no way of knowing if it has been altered in any way not under their control, thereby possibly making it unreliable and not up to standard. TBH, that would be my worry too -- where has this camera been, who's been messing with it and what expensive parts might they have removed and replaced with cheap crap thereby enabling them to sell the good bits on? Grey import devices might be cheaper but do you really know the whole reason why? I'll buy mine through official channels thanks.

 

[gramps]

If I bought say a Nikon gray import, who made it? And if Nikon made it why won't they honor the warrantee?

Nikon, and they will honour the warranty ... in the country of origin.

 

[Nod]

Do cameras sold in hot climates have different lubricants?