What small MF system?

[Nod]

I know the question is a little oxymoronic in that MF isn't going to be small but I'm only after a body and a lens or 2. Almost exclusively for landscapes but might use it for other things if the mood takes me, so probably a wide angle (24mm in 35mm terms or so) and a "standard" lens (if primes) or a zoom to suit. In an ideal world, it would be as cheap as possible but I'd rather stay this side of the iron curtain (or the far side!) than go Russian/East German). Some sort of built in meter would be nice but not essential and I wouldn't object to automation in any of its forms. Not too worried about interchangeable backs but if it was possible, it could be handy - same goes for different VF options. SLR much preferred over TLR but RF also acceptable.

 

[skysh4rk]

I know the question is a little oxymoronic in that MF isn't going to be small but I'm only after a body and a lens or 2. Almost exclusively for landscapes but might use it for other things if the mood takes me, so probably a wide angle (24mm in 35mm terms or so) and a "standard" lens (if primes) or a zoom to suit. In an ideal world, it would be as cheap as possible but I'd rather stay this side of the iron curtain (or the far side!) than go Russian/East German). Some sort of built in meter would be nice but not essential and I wouldn't object to automation in any of its forms. Not too worried about interchangeable backs but if it was possible, it could be handy - same goes for different VF options. SLR much preferred over TLR but RF also acceptable.

What frame size? What is your budget?

 

[TheBigYin]

Bronica ETRSi and Zenzanon MC 40mm f4

(6x4.5cm, and very similar in framing to shooting with 35mm/dijikal - unlike square format, which some people do struggle to get to grips with...)

 

[Paul-H]

Hi

What format are you looking for, 6x45, 6x6, 6x7 etc size makes a big difference in MF

For 6x45 the Bronica erts and etrsi are well worth a look

For 6x6 the Bronics SQ and SQ-A or Mamiya 330S or 330P

The Mamiya's are excellent value as well.

There are lots of choice once you have your format requirements sorted

Paul

 

[Nod]

What frame size? What is your budget?

Flexible on both counts! As I said, cheapish but not really "super cheapo" - prepared to pay what it costs as long as it's not extortionate.

Bronica ETRSi and Zenzanon MC 40mm f4

Do you have one in the classifieds, Mark? I now how much you lurve it in there!!!

 

[stevelmx5]

Mamiya M645J with 35mm 3.5, thread closed ;0)

 

[Nod]

I'd forgotten just how many formats there are in MF! Coming from 35mm via digital, I'm used to seeing in 3:2 but I'm not married to it - I usually end up cropping down to A series ratio for printing anyway.

 

[TheBigYin]

Do you have one in the classifieds, Mark? I now how much you lurve it in there!!!

Nod, if I ever do sell ANY of my cameras (unlikely, as I'm half way between a hoarder and a pack-rat) the Bronica Set is likely to be the last one that has to be pried from my cold dead hand... Most of my cameras are purely "tools of the trade" but the Bronny has far more emotional investment in it than that... Apart from it being the camera I first earned money with (shooting weddings, amazingly enough for anyone who knows my aversion to people in general and people in photographs in particular), it was bought from a dear friend, who's no longer with us, and it's sentimental value is such I wouldn't swap it for a brand new Hasselblad digital rig.

 

[Nod]

I'm lucky enough to have an Aladdin's Cave not far away (Mifsuds) so can probably get pretty much anything I want from them and since it's a want rather than a need, I can wait for something suitable to come in too.

As attractive as the idea of a Hasselblad system might be, I'm not sure I really want to spend that much on a want/toy, and there would always be the temptation to slap a digital back onto it...

 

[steveo_mcg]

Have a look at woodsy's thread from a few weeks ago. Basically the same requirements, a 645 system seemed to be the universal recommendation.

 

[stevelmx5]

That's what I like about the Mamiya M645j system. Built in film holder so no temptation to carry multiple backs, waist level finder for simplicity/weight saving or Prism finder for built in meter and SLR style view and a wide range of lens focal lengths for not a lot of money. I've been tempted to buy into it again after swapping for other systems to try them out. I'm currently using a Yashica 635 TLR which gives a lightweight/silent shooting option but no choice of lenses.

 

[skysh4rk]

I'd forgotten just how many formats there are in MF! Coming from 35mm via digital, I'm used to seeing in 3:2 but I'm not married to it - I usually end up cropping down to A series ratio for printing anyway.

Well, the only true 3:2 option in medium format is 6x9, which you could get with the Fuji GW690 or GSW690. Those cameras were quite popular for landscapes back in the day.

For me, the beauty of medium format is getting away from the ghastly 3:2 aspect ratio though, but to each his own.

Frame or intended print size should likely represent one of the primary considerations when choosing a medium format camera.

Have a look at woodsy's thread from a few weeks ago. Basically the same requirements, a 645 system seemed to be the universal recommendation.

Unlike most others, I generally advise against 6x4.5 under most circumstances, except in special cases (e.g., Contax 645 or Bronica RF645). Few people seem to listen to me, however.

 

[ChrisR]

The not so expensive, relatively small and quite light options with a range of focal lengths would include the Fuji GA645Zi (lots of automation). Bit more budget, go for the Mamiya 6 (or 7, if you're richer).

 

[steveo_mcg]

Unlike most others, I generally advise against 6x4.5 under most circumstances, except in special cases (e.g., Contax 645 or Bronica RF645). Few people seem to listen to me, however.

Probably should have said near. I always say RB67 but I can safely be ignored often as not.

 

[Nod]

Lots of food for thought!

Prints will mainly be (as I said above) A series and A3+ (which isn't quite the same aspect ratio) so will require gentle cropping from whichever format I go for - much as I currently do from 3:2 shots. I should really see what masks I have for my flatbed scanner - no good going for 6x9 if I can't scan the results! I'm pretty sure I can do 6x6 slides but can make masks to suit whatever if I need to.

Is my memory right in thinking that in rough terms MF has a "crop" factor of about 0.5? Pretty sure that an 85mm was fairly standard and that 90mm is close enough, making a 50mm reasonably wide.

 

[skysh4rk]

Is my memory right in thinking that in rough terms MF has a "crop" factor of about 0.5? Pretty sure that an 85mm was fairly standard and that 90mm is close enough, making a 50mm reasonably wide.

Not necessarily, no. It will depend on what frame size you choose. For instance, 6x9 is literally twice the area of 6x4.5, so that would have a pretty big impact on 'crop factor', as you can imagine.

 

[steveo_mcg]

Yeah that's about right, maybe a bit wider on 645 and a bit longer on 67.

 

[Nod]

Cheers, Steven, I was working on a 6x6 square as a relatively "standard" MF format.

 

[ianp5a]

The smaller TLRs such as Rolleiflex and YashicaMat win on size, weight (no prism) and cost. But lose on lens flexibility. You might need a wide angle adapter. Although I thought the standard 85mm was ideal for landscapes.

 

[Nod]

NO MF system is going to be that light! Although a TLR (IIRC, there was a Rolleiflex Wide model) would be a lighter option, I also like dioptre adjustment through a VF rather than having to wear my bifocals all the time. TBH, the weight isn't really an issue - the Nikon FF kit bag isn't light but doesn't usually get carried too far and any MF bag would come out on relatively special occasions.

 

[RaglanSurf]

Mamiya M645J with 35mm 3.5, thread closed ;0)

^^^WHS^^^ Cracking cameras, really affordable and good choice of lenses.

 

[Yv]

Just had to scratch the itch didn't ya!! Good luck with finding the right kit matey

 

[Nod]

Wel, I have dismissed the idea of the big 2.3 litre bike as slightly over the top so have a little play money...

 

[skysh4rk]

Cheers, Steven, I was working on a 6x6 square as a relatively "standard" MF format.

Keep in mind though that the very different aspect ratios of the medium format frame sizes make calculating 'crop' factors or equivalent focal lengths in 135 format very tricky.

For instance, a 'standard' 80mm lens in 6x6cm will give you the horizontal angle of view of a 51mm in 35mm terms, but the vertical angle of view of a 34mm lens.

This may seem trivial, but the implications of these different aspect ratios become more apparent as the focal length decreases, I think. In this regard, 6x6cm never seems very wide to my eyes, even for lenses (e.g., 40mm) that are supposedly quite wide according to their 35mm equivalents.

You might want to consult charts such as those found here for more information: http://www.hasselbladhistorical.eu/HW/HWequifoc.aspx

 

[nerv]

The smallest MF cameras in the market are generally rangefinders like Mamiya 7 (i and ii), mamiya 6, there are lots of fuji camreas such as GA645 series and gf670/w. But i think it boils down to what kind of photography you are doing.

 

[Nod]

Slipped into Camerex earlier since I was passing but they don't have anything MF in stock at the moment. As I was thinking camerific thoughts, I started wondering about formats and in particular, possibly looking at (or for!) a panoramic, hopefully with alternative framing(s) available if such things exist. Failing that, I think I've probably decided on a 6x6 and a wider lens which should allow me to crop down to a panoramic format as well as every other available option, especially if I go a bit higher in terms of budget. It does really all depend to a large extent on what Mifsuds have in stock in a month or so (or, given that they're in the armpit of Torbay, in Autumn!).

 

[skysh4rk]

Slipped into Camerex earlier since I was passing but they don't have anything MF in stock at the moment. As I was thinking camerific thoughts, I started wondering about formats and in particular, possibly looking at (or for!) a panoramic, hopefully with alternative framing(s) available if such things exist. Failing that, I think I've probably decided on a 6x6 and a wider lens which should allow me to crop down to a panoramic format as well as every other available option, especially if I go a bit higher in terms of budget. It does really all depend to a large extent on what Mifsuds have in stock in a month or so (or, given that they're in the armpit of Torbay, in Autumn!).

If you're thinking 6x6cm camera system with interchangeable lenses at affordable prices, it's hard to beat the Bronica SQ series. You can even pick up a 35mm back for the SQ series specifically for shooting panoramic shots.

 

[Lemaildetom]

Small MF = the old folder camera type or modern rangefinder (some of which shot 6x9)
Smallish MF = twin lens system
Bigger MF = camera with changeable back (bronica, mamiya,...).

I've been looking at a few old folder, they look very nice but don't use film enough to multiply the number of film camera I have.

 

[TheBigYin]

failing that, for panoramic, stick to 35mm and get a Hasselblad Xpan... Switchable standard 35mm framing (24x36mm) or pano. (24x65mm) - switchable on a frame by frame basis, so no "decide at the start of the roll it all has to be pano"...

(I vaguely remember a couple of old folding 120 cameras that had moveable frames in the back to switch formats between 6x4.5, 6x6 or 9x9, but for the life of me I can't remember the names of any of 'em... they were, by the nature of how they worked though, restricted to the same shooting format for the entire roll...)

 

[Andysnap]

Xpans are good but bloody expensive for what they are. I've started looking at doing my own 6x6 pano's stiched together in PS, seems a better option than spending umpteen earth pounds on a Hassie or even more on a Fuji 6 x 17... although I do lust after one of the latter.

 

[skysh4rk]

Smallish MF = twin lens system
Bigger MF = camera with changeable back (bronica, mamiya,...).

If you're just carrying the basic camera kit (body with waist level finder, back, and standard lens), then most of the 6x4.5cm and 6x6cm SLRs (e.g., Mamiyas and Bronicas) are about the same physical size as a TLR.

failing that, for panoramic, stick to 35mm and get a Hasselblad Xpan... Switchable standard 35mm framing (24x36mm) or pano. (24x65mm) - switchable on a frame by frame basis, so no "decide at the start of the roll it all has to be pano"...

(I vaguely remember a couple of old folding 120 cameras that had moveable frames in the back to switch formats between 6x4.5, 6x6 or 9x9, but for the life of me I can't remember the names of any of 'em... they were, by the nature of how they worked though, restricted to the same shooting format for the entire roll...)

Xpans are pretty pricey though. It'd be a lot cheaper to pick up either an ETR series of SQ series camera and put a 135 back on it and then you'd also have the option of true medium format too. Either Bronica set up would be much bigger than the Xpan, however.

Many of the 6x6 and 6x7 system cameras can shoot multiple formats by switching backs.

 

[steveo_mcg]

failing that, for panoramic, stick to 35mm and get a Hasselblad Xpan... Switchable standard 35mm framing (24x36mm) or pano. (24x65mm) - switchable on a frame by frame basis, so no "decide at the start of the roll it all has to be pano"...

(I vaguely remember a couple of old folding 120 cameras that had moveable frames in the back to switch formats between 6x4.5, 6x6 or 9x9, but for the life of me I can't remember the names of any of 'em... they were, by the nature of how they worked though, restricted to the same shooting format for the entire roll...)

My moskva had a mask to swap from 6x6 and 6x9. I don't think I ever bothered with 6x6, If I want 6x6 folder my Ikonta was smaller and sharper.

 

[Nod]

failing that, for panoramic, stick to 35mm and get a Hasselblad Xpan... Switchable standard 35mm framing (24x36mm) or pano. (24x65mm) - switchable on a frame by frame basis, so no "decide at the start of the roll it all has to be pano"...

(I vaguely remember a couple of old folding 120 cameras that had moveable frames in the back to switch formats between 6x4.5, 6x6 or 9x9, but for the life of me I can't remember the names of any of 'em... they were, by the nature of how they worked though, restricted to the same shooting format for the entire roll...)

9x9 would be a neat trick!!!

I was considering an X-Pan before I went all fingery and could do easy stitching in PP - I currently have a pan I want on canvas that is likely to be 1x5. Feet... Just waiting for TradeCanvasPrints to spot my price/possibility question in his thread! The benefit of an X-Pan over a 6x6 looks fairly minimal and the downside would be that I would be restricted to a normal 35mm frame in non-pano mode and I can do that already.

Like I said, it'll probably depend on what's in stock at Mifsuds (or in the classifieds here) a little later in the year as well as the availability of good local D&P&S or D&S for trannies. Scanning's less important than the D&P since I can do the scans here, albeit on a flatbed with a proper trannie/neg hood. Currently no Bronny SQ bodies, just Hassies and I'm trying to avoid that temptation (and expense if possible)!

 

[Nod]

A combination of several factors (mainly me and my less than perfect memory and attention span ) has put a lid on this for the time being. One of the extraneous factors was the lack of choice in MF systems locally. I could go the whole hog and go for a Hassy 6x6 setup but a recent play with 35mm showed me just how reliant I've become on automation these days as well as chimping. Out of a whole 37 exposure roll, only one shot was useable and that was a basic test shot so not worth saving! D&P is limited locally too. Only Snappy Snaps seem to do it in house these days, although there is a place down in Paignton that seems to take everyone else's drop in stuff but takes a week or more to turn it around (by which time I'd have forgotten that I'd taken it down/in as well as what I'd actually shot on it!)

Hopefully my memory and attention span will improve more in time - if it does, I'll be back!

 

[Deleted member 21335]

A combination of several factors (mainly me and my less than perfect memory and attention span ) has put a lid on this for the time being. One of the extraneous factors was the lack of choice in MF systems locally. I could go the whole hog and go for a Hassy 6x6 setup but a recent play with 35mm showed me just how reliant I've become on automation these days as well as chimping. Out of a whole 37 exposure roll, only one shot was useable and that was a basic test shot so not worth saving! D&P is limited locally too. Only Snappy Snaps seem to do it in house these days, although there is a place down in Paignton that seems to take everyone else's drop in stuff but takes a week or more to turn it around (by which time I'd have forgotten that I'd taken it down/in as well as what I'd actually shot on it!)

Hopefully my memory and attention span will improve more in time - if it does, I'll be back!

Do it, Nod. I couldn't be happier that I used the Hassy and Leica in Iceland. Slowed me down, took my time over metering and framing, only pulled the trigger when it felt right and as a result I have something I am much, much happier with that if I had shot digital for the whole trip.

 

[Nod]

The problem is that a roll of film including D&P is likely to cost around a tenner a time and for a single keeper, I can't really justify it. I thought I'd managed a few keepers with the F65 but I managed to screw almost every shot up, despite a certain amount of automation! Oddly, I've played with the D700 and a small CF card (holds about 40 JPEGs) and managed about 50% keepers and that was a year or 2 ago and I'm sure my health etc. has improved since then.
Maybe a cheapish TLR is the answer, using a d#####l as a meter!

 

[Deleted member 21335]

The problem is that a roll of film including D&P is likely to cost around a tenner a time and for a single keeper.

True that. I am mentally in the strange place now where I find that acceptable and it's costing me more like £15 for a roll including dev and scan. Good grief. Although the more I shoot, the more I slow down and the more keepers I seem to get.

 

[Nod]

My problem is that if I slow down too much, I lose interest or forget what I was going to shoot! I could never be a decent wildlife photographer, just don't have the patience these days. Even £15/roll isn't too bad, as long as there's a decent keeper rate but a tenner for a single image is in LF territory.

 

[pingu666]

was the error the same in that roll? Shutter speeds can lose acuracy easily :/ over time

 

[Nod]

Things were all over the place, all user error rather than equipment. Just little things that I used to check as second nature but now forget to do. The most obvious was leaving it set to underexpose by 2 stops after a sunset, although leaving on MF was almost as bad! The immediate review with d#####l picks up on schoolboy errors like those as soon as I have a peek at the rear screen but by the time a film comes back, it's too late! Doesn't really bug me too much (although it can be a bit frustrating sometimes), on the (HUGE) plus side, I'm relatively fit and healthy and above all alive!