What`s it all about?

[gramps]

http://www.talkphotography.co.uk/threads/robin.563867/page-2#post-6532915

Sums it up for me!

 

[pooley]

All very fair points, Mike

Going back to rock and a hard place its pretty apparent in "here"
that there are a couple or so of defined camps.
And I'm sure that its not just the green team that knows this either.

Those "like" each others posts, (to the point of predictability) and follow each other around,
Backing each other up. (Either openly or surreptitiously )

Then there is the few "floaters" the ones that stay fairly neutral but will come down on either side as the mood takes them.
Then there is the ones that completely ignore the "camps"
And just get on with "life" and ignore the hardcore.

Camps and cliques will form, its human nature,
mates will support mate, comment on their images,
and largely blow sunshine up each others arse,
or support to deride "whoever"
as I said human nature.

Now by taking out anyone of the "two main groups" the problem will solve itself.
But which one? It does mean banning quite a few people.
And that is something that is against the principles of TP

We would hope that people can behave like adults, treat each other
as they would wish to be treated.
And even give people a second chance.

Previously you mentioned about starting another account,
after being banned, there are a few around that we are aware of,
those that play nice, keep their head down are allowed to stay.
Some however just re-join to cause mischief,
They've had a second chance and blown it.

Its a pity that after the last "blow-up" statements from the admin.
Things largely all settled down for quite awhile.
Now its coming to the fore again.

What's the answer?
Close the bird section and dilute the posts across wild and free,
and make the zoo section an animal section with the prefix
"wild" or "captive" ? to encompass ALL things from the animal kingdom?
both sections are pretty peaceful.
Maybe some of it would rub off on a few others,
Who knows?

A comprehensive reply, and thanks for your time. As I've said, it doesn't personally offend me, but you clearly have a way of trying to deal with things that we'll never agree on, as if we did, the same problems wouldn't keep rearing their heads.

I think the time has come to agree to disagree

 

[Cobra]

I think the time has come to agree to disagree

Extends hand to shake
A good discussion Mike and one that will no doubt re-occur many times.

 

[pooley]

so we should ban someone for making a joke? Neil has been banned for being disruptive and trolling, not making a joke, he has curtailed his behaviour since his suspension

By curtailing behaviour you mean posting an ironic / sarcastic post on a potentially thread that ultimately led to arguments and a lock down?

Do you know how many people we have banned, how many suspensions we have dished out, how many RTMs we have discussed, how many conversations we have had, and how many hours that has taken? No? But you know that we have done nothing about any of the issues in this forum? Is that because we havent banned the people YOU think should be banned?

Of course not, I'm not privy to that information. As for who 'I' think should be banned until today I don't think I've ever named anybody publicly because you ask us not to

it is the job of the mod team to stop rudeness, however we cant stop people getting offended by their own egos not being massaged or people getting offended on the behalf of others.. As i have said before, we look at every report on merit and discuss between us what to do, we have a lot of things going on in the backroom that you have no idea about, it might actually surprise you one day too.

Yes it is everybody's responsibility to avoid rudeness, but it isn't difficult to look at posting history and find out the consistent offenders. Thanks for letting me know I might get surprised one day - not patronising in the slightest

it is frustrating, but sometimes people need to rise above perceived issues. There are just as many s*** stirrers as there are people likely to cause offence, it is quite apparent, when you look at those reported and those reporting, that there are 2 camps that are 'the problem', not just a couple of knuckleheads with no tact.

A little common decency and the problems go away. However, the same people constantly disregard this common decency which is where I would expect the green team to step in.

You can criticise me all you like, but i'll not have you criticise the mod team. They do a very good job in trying circumstances.

I have no doubt the mods try their best, and a lot of the time they deserve credit for doing a thankless task. However, regarding this section, my opinion is you're actions are inadequate.

However, as per my reply to Cobra, we could go round in circles with this all day, so I'll agree to disagree with your comments and leave this thread to others

 

[BillN_33]

Nothing wrong with what Mike @pooley has said ……… some Mods on here has their own style of Moderation

I've said this before

Maybe I should explain what I mean - IMHO, Mods should moderate and not agree or disagree with anyone, directly or by inference

 

[fracster]

I think BRASH bought it

LOL,,,seriously, funniest post I have seen on here for ages............

 

[fracster]

Doesn't offend me in the slightest Ade, off forum when I'm talking to people face to face my sense of humour is probably best described as 'brutal'. However, coming from someone who recently started the 'How to sort the problems' thread I thought that liking a sarcastic comment was in poor taste at best.

Giving some of your friends a healthy dose of banter in their threads is all well and good, but that was just a sly dig and is the type of comment that has seen many members decide its happened once too often and leave to pastures new, which in turn leads to the levels of crit we are now seeing here.

I didn`t read it as a sly dig Mike, I guess that is the internet for you, we read things in different ways.

 

[fracster]

The general issue that I see is forum wide, and it can be broken down like this:

Too many people wanting praise but not capable or willing to accept comments that dont follow the broad line of 'nice shot'
Too many people with paper-thin skin
Too many people who are here purely for self-promotion, either for their own ego or for their own websites/blogs/ventures
Too many people with no sense of humour

I know you won`t believe this Matt, but I agree with you totally on these points.

The third one is rearing it`s head more and more as well.

 

[BRASH]

@BillN_33

RIGHT, ALL THIS PISH ABOUT ME JUDGING THE ROBIN COMPETITION. I'LL DO IT.

BILL, YOU SET A DATE FOR THE FINAL PIC TO BE POSTED, I'LL VIEW THEM ALL AFTER AND I WILL PICK WHAT I GENUINELY BELIEVE TO BE THE BEST XMAS ROBIN SHOT.

I SHALL ALSO SUPPLY A PRIZE (AT MY EXPENSE) WHICH I CONSIDER APPROPRIATE FOR THE WINNER. THIS WILL OBVIOUSLY VARY DEPENDENT ON WHO THAT IS.

THERE YOU GO, LET THE CHALLENGE COMMENCE.

 

[BintyMcFrazzles]

Newbie to the forum, so can only say what I've read so far when it comes to CC, and sorry if it's just rehashing what others have said.

I have seen all sorts of CC on here, some of it seems to be constructive, others just plain rude. Thankfully, it's been mostly constructive. I know some people on here have been photographing forever, and sometimes I have felt I can't really add anything to a topic. Yes, sometimes I have said just, "I like 'X' or 'Y'" and not given any real criticism, but sometimes I just like a photo and have nothing more to add. My contribution, however small, is still valid. For me, photography isn't always about being technically perfect.

I have added a couple of photos to the forum, and comments, so far, have been constructive. But reading some topics, some people have gone OTT (IMO) with their criticism. I don't care who you are, it isn't about "developing a thicker skin" or "not being so sensitive"; when it's your work, especially if you're a beginner, someone just being completely negative about your photo can be disheartening. I have seen photos where they aren't a great photo, but it's okay-ish. I have pointed out the good parts of the photo first, then pointed out where I think things could be improved.
Granted, if someone posts in the "critique" forums, and says, "What's wrong with this?" I don't expect to see everyone posting "that's nice". I also don't want to simply rub someones ego. But sometimes, if we've had a crap photo day, worked really hard, and had little to show for it, it's nice for someone to say, "It's not that bad, really." (And I don't mean being nice for being nice sake).

You might completely disagree with my comments, or agree with my approach to CC, and that's your right to do so. I'm just giving my perspective from a newbie.



Edit: Just to note, I'm not just talking about the bird forum, as birds are not my thing, I'm talking in general.

 

[BillN_33]

RIGHT, ALL THIS PISH ABOUT ME JUDGING THE ROBIN COMPETITION. I'LL DO IT.

BILL, YOU SET A DATE FOR THE FINAL PIC TO BE POSTED, I'LL VIEW THEM ALL AFTER AND I WILL PICK WHAT I GENUINELY BELIEVE TO BE THE BEST XMAS ROBIN SHOT.

I SHALL ALSO SUPPLY A PRIZE (AT MY EXPENSE) WHICH I CONSIDER APPROPRIATE FOR THE WINNER. THIS WILL OBVIOUSLY VARY DEPENDENT ON WHO THAT IS.

THERE YOU GO, LET THE CHALLENGE COMMENCE.

We had the window open down here in Winchester as we are in the UK for a few days, so I heard you ….. no need to post.

I was hoping that Donny Osmond would step forward, be he hasn't so many thanks for your offer which is welcomed and accepted ……… not many entries yet - we need 20 or 30 to make it a "good show" ……. I happy to leave it open until December 1st as long as people don't get fed up

 

[BRASH]

We had the window open down here in Winchester as we are in the UK for a few days, so I heard you ….. no need to post.

Anyway your offer is accepted ……… not many entries yet - we need 20 or 30 to make it a "good show" ……. I happy to leave it open until December 1st as long as people don't get fed up

Cool. Get it detailed in the Thread and see if the Mods can put it as the first entry on the Thread so everyone knows.

 

[BillN_33]

Cool. Get it detailed in the Thread and see if the Mods can put it as the first entry on the Thread so everyone knows.

Mods - can you fix this

 

[Matt]

yes we can.

Im not going to keep the argument running as its pointless, we cant win whichever we do it but i will say that those who have issues should contact us using the right channels, and not start an argument on the forum.

 

[BillN_33]

yes we can.

Im not going to keep the argument running as its pointless, we cant win whichever we do it but i will say that those who have issues should contact us using the right channels, and not start an argument on the forum.

many thanks on both counts

 

[The W]

I take photos because I enjoy the process then share them in hope of adoration. But I try to take apathy on the chin and learn from any constructive criticism. As for unconstructive criticism, life's too short to waste time worrying about it - I ignore it and make a mental note to hold the poster in poor esteem and skip over their posts in future.

 

[sk66]

Once again I see people getting a bit upset over any C&C.

None of the above really. I post them because I like them and maybe someone else will get something from them as well.
But I don't mind "critique" (as long as it's not "rule of thirds" bound). I still learn something every once in a while...

 

[u8myufo]

To be honest Rich i think your facebook one is the wrong way round, peeps get likes from friends and family on fb and/or flickr and they expect to here as well, the downside being is most on fb aren't photographers so they don't see things that folk here would pick up on so then war is declared

What?

 

[Joeturner11]

It amazes me when people give honest and helpful critique, which sometimes can be blunt but the only way it can be put across and they get told there being to 'cruel' etc.

Words fail me...

 

[brianernie]

It amazes me when people give honest and helpful critique, which sometimes can be blunt but the only way it can be put across and they get told there being to 'cruel' etc.

Words fail me...

Agree , but what about the people ,who give dishonest and unhelpful critique , surely it must work both ways , critique isn't always correct , incidentally I don't mind critique in the least , have had honest and helpful critique ,which I would hope as improved my photography , have also had critique that I have found to be completely naff

 

[u8myufo]

Agree , but what about the people ,who give dishonest and unhelpful critique , surely it must work both ways , critique isn't always correct , incidentally I don't mind critique in the least , have had honest and helpful critique ,which I would hope as improved my photography , have also had critique that I have found to be completely naff

I agree Brian,but as mentioned a short while ago we will go full circle with this debate. The governing factor in any feedback has to be the OP`s level of experience,and to the majority of those that frequent this section we all know who is capable of producing a certain standard. Those who are going to leave some feedback should be able to look at a picture and work out easily enough the degree of difficulty needed to obtain that shot. So in when someone posts up a picture and it is in all fairness it is not up to scratch,it makes me think THIS

 

[BillN_33]

I've got no idea where to get these smiley faces from ………. I generally don't do smiley faces I prefer to use the English language

It really is a pity ……… but I have to keep persuading myself that we are all good guys in the Bird Forum, but the more you get involved the more you can see why people leave and the understanding about my remarks contained in post #42 and the corresponding "Like" does make me wonder how people think or even what's going through their minds

I cannot distill what I stay in more simple language ………. let me repeat what I said Joe and just try a little to understand it, think about it if you can

"That's cruel Lynne, he did use 1/80th and I bet he "hand held" it" ....... I even used "Lynne" and "hand held"

cannot you see the humour in that comment?


Have ……. you …….. got ……..it ……… yet …….. or do you want me to get a 12 year old to explain it to you


Words fail me…

copied from your posting, at least you are good at smiley faces …….. and I have no idea where they come from? ……….. photography course?

 

[the black fox]

the whole problem can be solved by one simple move on the part of admin

when you log into the forum opening page it states quiet clearly PHOTOS:BIRDS a lot of people myself included get drawn into posting our shots on there as it APPEARS to be the section for posting bird photos ,

BUT its not is it ,its a critique section where a small group has set themselves up to be the committee in charge .

the easy and simple answer is to move that heading elsewhere and just have it as birds for pleasure and another CLEARLY MARKED section for the critique if wanted or needed .or simply add to the heading photos:birds:critique only

if this easy fix is implemented it will solve 95% of the problems with the bird section overnight

 

[Cobra]

the easy and simple answer is to move that heading elsewhere and just have it as birds for pleasure and another CLEARLY MARKED section for the critique if wanted or needed .or simply add to the heading photos:birds:critique only

There is already a prefix option when posting new threads

if this easy fix is implemented it will solve 95% of the problems with the bird section overnight

Really?

 

[the black fox]

There is already a prefix option when posting new threads


Really?

no there isn't it simply states and very misleadingly PHOTOS:BIRDS there is no mention of CRITIQUE at all .oh hissy one read my post properly it is meant to be helpful and constructive .this crap on here has got to stop for everyones sakes !!!!

 

[u8myufo]

BUT its not is it ,its a critique section where a small group has set themselves up to be the committee in charge .

Nothing could be further from the truth Jeff and you know it. That small group as you so describe does not consider themselves to be a committee,never have done and never will do.If that was the case I am sure it would have been clamped down on way before you ever joined the forum.What that small group has always tried to do, is encourage people to actually join in and offer some C&C,something that you yourself very rarely do as usual for whatever reason.Yet you are quite happy to throw these wild accusations into the discussion. And that small group has been around for a while and was getting along fine with every other member in this section, I would like to feel that is still the case exept for the ones that just want to try and disrupt it all.

 

[BillN_33]

Nothing could be further from the truth Jeff and you know it. That small group as you so describe does not consider themselves to be a committee,never have done and never will do.If that was the case I am sure it would have been clamped down on way before you ever joined the forum.What that small group has always tried to do, is encourage people to actually join in and offer some C&C,something that you yourself very rarely do as usual for whatever reason.Yet you are quite happy to throw these wild accusations into the discussion. And that small group has been around for a while and was getting along fine with every other member in this section, I would like to feel that is still the case exept for the ones that just want to try and disrupt it all.

I never saw all images posted in the Bird Section as being up for (serious) Critique unless they were tagged as such, (otherwise why have the specific tag) ……………… but, wait, looking back maybe that's why I made a (sub conscious?) decision to post most of my (Bird) images, which are getting few and fewer, in the Wild & Free section.

Sadly I do agree with Jeff's comment ……….. "its (become) a critique section where a small group has set themselves up to be the committee in charge"

IMHO, this "Like" button really does divide rather than unite …….. I have suggested many times that it should be replaced by "Thanks" which is the norm on other Forums

 

[the black fox]

Nothing could be further from the truth Jeff and you know it. That small group as you so describe does not consider themselves to be a committee,never have done and never will do.If that was the case I am sure it would have been clamped down on way before you ever joined the forum.What that small group has always tried to do, is encourage people to actually join in and offer some C&C,something that you yourself very rarely do as usual for whatever reason.Yet you are quite happy to throw these wild accusations into the discussion. And that small group has been around for a while and was getting along fine with every other member in this section, I would like to feel that is still the case exept for the ones that just want to try and disrupt it all.

lynne the whole point i,m trying to make is that when people go to post a bird picture ,most if not all newcomers and oldies alike will go to the forums header page where it states quite boldly PHOTOS:BIRDS the group/commitee/friends etc that consistently jump onto the fact that unbeknown to a lot of posters this is a CRITIQUE section then proceed to dissect most if not all pictures ,and in doing so when people take umbridge hide behind the fact that it is a critique section .

which is why i made the point (unsuccessfully it seems ) that the bird section which is where most problems on this forum originate should in all honesty be split into 2 more CLEARLY MARKED sections .surely you and the others can see that this would stem the complaints that are frequently raised.and you cannot hide your head in the sand as you know its true as well as i do .

i rarely offer any criticism myself as i'm not qualified to do so ,i have my own style and way of doing things and prefer not to follow the norm. as it were .i prefer not to follow the rules ? and guidelines ? tending to make my own where possible ,so totally no point in telling someone whats right or wrong when i might be wrong myself .if however someone asks me for help as they often do round here i,m only to willing to show them

 

[u8myufo]

lynne the whole point i,m trying to make is that when people go to post a bird picture ,most if not all newcomers and oldies alike will go to the forums header page where it states quite boldly PHOTOS:BIRDS the group/commitee/friends etc that consistently jump onto the fact that unbeknown to a lot of posters this is a CRITIQUE section then proceed to dissect most if not all pictures ,and in doing so when people take umbridge hide behind the fact that it is a critique section .

which is why i made the point (unsuccessfully it seems ) that the bird section which is where most problems on this forum originate should in all honesty be split into 2 more CLEARLY MARKED sections .surely you and the others can see that this would stem the complaints that are frequently raised.and you cannot hide your head in the sand as you know its true as well as i do .

i rarely offer any criticism myself as i'm not qualified to do so ,i have my own style and way of doing things and prefer not to follow the norm. as it were .i prefer not to follow the rules ? and guidelines ? tending to make my own where possible ,so totally no point in telling someone whats right or wrong when i might be wrong myself .if however someone asks me for help as they often do round here i,m only to willing to show them

Well Jeff as I mentioned in the past, the bird section along with other genres is listed under "Photo Genres Discussion and Critique,this section has always been known for it as well as the other sections.If you think that that is confusing for people then Mods are the only ones that can change it. I see it as self explanatory,but I may be an exceptional case.Besides I do not think I have seen anybody complaining after recieving any C&C,turn around and say "well I did not think people would be scrutinising my picture" If I may quote you again Jeff, " the group/commitee/friends etc that consistently jump onto the fact that unbeknown to a lot of posters this is a CRITIQUE section then proceed to dissect most if not all pictures " Again I ask you,do you really think so? Nobody jumps on anyones back to leave C&C. Anybody who does in fact leave C&C and as stated before ,is not rude, is entitled to.If you do a bit of homework and check back on my replies you will see that I very rarely post anything compared to a year or so ago.I wonder why that is? It was also not that long back when people on here were throwing suggestions left right and centre, and trying their utmost to encourage people to leave some Critique, in fact if memory serves me right I think there were two or three discussions all going on at the same time.What was that all about,what do people actually want? Let me know Jeff because I am having difficulty in understanding. Perhaps your good self and your little group need to contact the Mods and ask for this section to be merged,as imho it really has come to the end of it`s life.

 

[BillN_33]

so if I add the (prefix) Critique to an image posted in the Bird section, what does it mean and why is it necessary if it is understand by all that anything posted in that section should be critiqued as a matter of course without the prefix

just asking

Denis won't mind …… I bet he is having a giggle reading the thread …………. and I've never quite made my mind up about Dunnock's ……. sometimes they are OK and sometimes not!

Miserable day, today with my "new" 600mm …… I really am getting "passed it" strength wise

loosen up everyone! ………. I think that we need an injection of "Mod" wisdom, or is that a contradiction?

Maybe I should go an practice my new reputation and "troll" in the FS&W section?

 

[fracster]

the whole section is for critique, if you don't want crit, for whatever reason, post in photos for pleasure.why is that so difficult to grasp?

 

[BillN_33]

the whole section is for critique, if you don't want crit, for whatever reason, post in photos for pleasure.why is that so difficult to grasp?

Ade,

It is not difficult to grasp

It say "Discussion and Critique" ………….that could be taken to mean Discuss and Critique, or Discuss or Critique …….. BUT then you can add a prefix to say what you would like to happen in "your" thread

so it could be argued that if there is no "Critique" prefix …….. you just want it discussing, not Critiqued

why is that so difficult to understand?

The only way that you resolve queries is to understand both sides of the argument, no matter how weak you think one side is

 

[Yv]

Some days, it is like hitting your head against a wall.... perhaps you might all want to read this >> http://www.talkphotography.co.uk/resources/how-when-to-offer-comments-critique-on-photos.14/

We really can't make it any clearer

 

[BillN_33]

Some days, it is like hitting your head against a wall.... perhaps you might all want to read this >> http://www.talkphotography.co.uk/resources/how-when-to-offer-comments-critique-on-photos.14/

We really can't make it any clearer

why did you reduce the font size in the opening sentence

"Any photo posted in the photo sharing sections of the forum is open to comments and constructive critique by other members - please remember this when choosing where to post your pictures. We do expect those comments to be polite and well phrased so as to be helpful"

if you don't mind me asking ……….. it is the only phrase in that font size …….. surely it would have been better to embolden it, if you want to emphasise it


I now put all my images in "Wild & Free" so the Bird guys don't look at them!!!!

 

[fracster]

I give in, seriously, carry on blowing smoke up your own backsides. Nobody wants crit cos your all f*****g brilliant photographers. Carry on.

 

[Yv]

lynne the whole point i,m trying to make is that when people go to post a bird picture ,most if not all newcomers and oldies alike will go to the forums header page where it states quite boldly PHOTOS:BIRDS the group/commitee/friends etc that consistently jump onto the fact that unbeknown to a lot of posters this is a CRITIQUE section then proceed to dissect most if not all pictures ,and in doing so when people take umbridge hide behind the fact that it is a critique section .

which is why i made the point (unsuccessfully it seems ) that the bird section which is where most problems on this forum originate should in all honesty be split into 2 more CLEARLY MARKED sections .surely you and the others can see that this would stem the complaints that are frequently raised.and you cannot hide your head in the sand as you know its true as well as i do .

i rarely offer any criticism myself as i'm not qualified to do so ,i have my own style and way of doing things and prefer not to follow the norm. as it were .i prefer not to follow the rules ? and guidelines ? tending to make my own where possible ,so totally no point in telling someone whats right or wrong when i might be wrong myself .if however someone asks me for help as they often do round here i,m only to willing to show them

As already said, the section is NOT going to split into two, there is in fact a very strong argument to say that it shouldn't exist at all, every thread in here could be in wild n free or zoos/captive, but we obliged and provided a separate bird section. If we split this into 2 more, the other sections will soon want the same because the same problems exist, to a less argumentative degree across the photo sections, too many people getting too stroppy because someone dared to suggest their photo wasn't quite the wonderful thing they thought it was. You know what, we are trying to make the forum structure smaller and more manageable, not bigger and more cumbersome.

Secondly, 'not qualified to do so' is utter rubbish - suggest you read the resources link I posted in previous post.

 

[BillN_33]

I give in, seriously, carry on blowing smoke up your own backsides. Nobody wants crit cos your all f*****g brilliant photographers. Carry on.

I never said that, quite the reverse

I would like to hear from the "experts" what has gone wrong in their opinion and why rather than what is wrong with (an image)

 

[Yv]

why did you reduce the font size in the opening sentence

"Any photo posted in the photo sharing sections of the forum is open to comments and constructive critique by other members - please remember this when choosing where to post your pictures. We do expect those comments to be polite and well phrased so as to be helpful"

if you don't mind me asking ……….. it is the only phrase in that font size …….. surely it would have been better to embolden it, if you want to emphasise it

The font size isn't reduced, the second part of the sentence is the same as the rest of the text, the first part is slightly bigger to emphasise the important part of it. Or, that is how is displays to me and most of the other mods that checked it before it posted.

 

[BillN_33]

The font size isn't reduced, the second part of the sentence is the same as the rest of the text, the first part is slightly bigger to emphasise the important part of it. Or, that is how is displays to me and most of the other mods that checked it before it posted.

Fair enough ……. I just got it the wrong way round, (again) …….. don't get so excited, have another cup of coffee ………

I personally would embolden it - not trying to be smart - you do ask for suggestions from "members"

 

[Yv]

Fair enough ……. I just got it the wrong way round, (again) …….. don't get so excited, have another cup of coffee ………

Not vaguely excited Bill, more mildly amused that the first thing you notice, or rather didn't, is a difference in font sizes, so just answering your point.