What no jeremy cobyn thread?

[dejongj]

Err....... no, I think you just said that.

Oh ok fair enough, so what were you saying then?

 

[nilagin]

I doubt his actual objective is to cause disruption, or don't actually support his own views. What has he done to make you form an informed opinion like that?

The other parties must ensure to not fall in the same awful behaviour as the alternative labour candidates exhibited. The other parties and leader must fight a positive campaign of conviction explaining why they are the best to take the lead. Not a campaign that explains why not Corbyn.

It's just the impression he gives me from his so far left views (he couldn't get any further left of he'd be off the edge of the planet) He's likely to want to give more control back to unions which will destroy any industry this country has left. Everything he stands for will destroy everything this country has achieved in the last few years, and all the money he needs to destroy it will come out of our pockets bringing everyone down to the same level ( don't be fooled, he'll still be doing very nicely whilst the rest of us are being crippled by taxes) instead of attempting to bring people up.
Interesting to see several Labour front benchers have already stood down. Also he has just made a substantial sum having his campaign T-Shirts made abroad at 49p/hr and sold for over £10. I wonder why he didn't employ some hard up people from his own constituency to do that.

 

[dejongj]

It's just the impression he gives me from his so far left views (he couldn't get any further left of he'd be off the edge of the planet) He's likely to want to give more control back to unions which will destroy any industry this country has left. Everything he stands for will destroy everything this country has achieved in the last few years, and all the money he needs to destroy it will come out of our pockets bringing everyone down to the same level ( don't be fooled, he'll still be doing very nicely whilst the rest of us are being crippled by taxes) instead of attempting to bring people up.
Interesting to see several Labour front benchers have already stood down. Also he has just made a substantial sum having his campaign T-Shirts made abroad at 49p/hr and sold for over £10. I wonder why he didn't employ some hard up people from his own constituency to do that.

I wouldn't worry too much about things that haven't happened, as you nicely demonstrated he is nowhere near as left and militant. Also once they are in power and get to see the true security briefs etc, they will all change their views...

 

[BRASH]

Interesting to see several Labour front benchers have already stood down. Also he has just made a substantial sum having his campaign T-Shirts made abroad at 49p/hr and sold for over £10. .

Ain't that just how capitalism works. There is a thread on hypocrisy already

 

[nilagin]

I wouldn't worry too much about things that haven't happened, as you nicely demonstrated he is nowhere near as left and militant.

But that is just it he is that far left, he has the belief that everyone should be down at the same level, but he's still living in the "dark ages" where it was easier to hoodwink the rest into believing he would be down there with us. Hopefully the media is right in what they were saying yesterday and the Labour party will tire of him and over throw him long before the next election.

 

[jakeblu]

If the public vote for this buffoon and he gets into No.10 I predict interesting times.

So Corbyn wants to welcome more refugees, He also doesn't want to bomb ISIS and wants to make peace with jihadis, who does he think the refugees are trying to escape and what gives him the idea that the jihadis actually want peace? What a f***wit.

Because he is a majorly left wing idiot who wants to cause as much disruption as possible based on spite and not economic reasons or any real concern for the people he supposedly represents.

Looking at the state of him, he'll be lucky to see the next general election, I've seen healthier looking 90 year olds.

Is that what political debate has sunk to on this forum, playground name calling?

Why am I surprised, it is OOF after all

 

[DocT]

But we get all weak at the knees when Iran wants them. I don't get it. Israel are allowed them yet Iran are not. That's why the only solution in my eyes is for them to be banned or for all countries to have the capability.

The sentiment is nice but you can't have a liberal approach when it comes to WMDs. Iran is neither transparent, governed by NATO and generally a very volatile state. What are the chance relative to us that a rebel army puts those weapons in the wrong hands?

Corbyn seems to think that all the Middle East issues can be solved by dropping weapons and getting around a table for a chat and biscuits. Delusional comes to mind.

 

[dejongj]

But that is just it he is that far left, he has the belief that everyone should be down at the same level, but he's still living in the "dark ages" where it was easier to hoodwink the rest into believing he would be down there with us. Hopefully the media is right in what they were saying yesterday and the Labour party will tire of him and over throw him long before the next election.

It is easy to express such views when in opposition or merely expressing ones viewpoint. When it comes down to reality and actual leadership and presented by the facts it would be interesting to see how he matches that with the ideals.

He has not been in a position to truly having to deal with such matters and as such I don't think you can draw any conclusions at all.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

It will be interesting to see the make up of his shadow ministers.
The day of left wing governments is past.
To form a government you must control the middle ground.

 

[AHILL]

I can forgive all the above but he probably shoots Canon as well

and you were doing so well up to that point.

 

[rjbell]

It's just the impression he gives me from his so far left views (he couldn't get any further left of he'd be off the edge of the planet) He's likely to want to give more control back to unions which will destroy any industry this country has left. Everything he stands for will destroy everything this country has achieved in the last few years, and all the money he needs to destroy it will come out of our pockets bringing everyone down to the same level ( don't be fooled, he'll still be doing very nicely whilst the rest of us are being crippled by taxes) instead of attempting to bring people up.
Interesting to see several Labour front benchers have already stood down. Also he has just made a substantial sum having his campaign T-Shirts made abroad at 49p/hr and sold for over £10. I wonder why he didn't employ some hard up people from his own constituency to do that.

You missed your vocation with that sensational piece you should be working at the daily mail or the sun.

 

[rjbell]

It will be interesting to see the make up of his shadow ministers.
The day of left wing governments is past.
To form a government you must control the middle ground.

How can you say that with such conviction. Did you not see the crowds turning out for him and the same for Bernie in the US. Its stirring up in many countries.

 

[nilagin]

It is easy to express such views when in opposition or merely expressing ones viewpoint. When it comes down to reality and actual leadership and presented by the facts it would be interesting to see how he matches that with the ideals.

He has not been in a position to truly having to deal with such matters and as such I don't think you can draw any conclusions at all.

Maybe not but I can base it on the results of how every Labour government has affected me or my parents before I started work. The fact he hasn't changed any of his views so far in his run up to gaining leadership of the Labour party and he was already more likely in a position to know more of the facts than the rest of us, tells me he won't be changing his ideas much anytime soon.

 

[nilagin]

Is that what political debate has sunk to on this forum, playground name calling?

Why am I surprised, it is OOF after all

It's called sinking to a level even Corbyn can understand.

 

[frank]

With all the bile from TP members aimed at various politicians and describing them as idiots who don't have a clue whether they be tories/lib dems/labour/snp etc etc etc I often wonder who these members would like to see as PM or chancellor and consider them not to be idiots.

 

[cambsno]

How can you say that with such conviction. Did you not see the crowds turning out for him and the same for Bernie in the US. Its stirring up in many countries.

Look at the last election a few months ago. Even with austerity people voted to stay roughly as we were. Labor only became electable when Blair moved them more to the right. Milliband was more left and lost an election he couldnhave won, had someone like his brother been in place they may well have won.

I quite like Tristram hunt in labour, think he is electable. Also liked Alan's Johnson but knocking on a bit.

 

[Bobsyeruncle]

With all the bile from TP members aimed at various politicians and describing them as idiots who don't have a clue whether they be tories/lib dems/labour/snp etc etc etc I often wonder who these members would like to see as PM or chancellor and consider them not to be idiots.

Makes me wonder who the real idiots are.

 

[rjbell]

Look at the last election a few months ago. Even with austerity people voted to stay roughly as we were. Labor only became electable when Blair moved them more to the right. Milliband was more left and lost an election he couldnhave won, had someone like his brother been in place they may well have won.

I quite like Tristram hunt in labour, think he is electable. Also liked Alan's Johnson but knocking on a bit.

How do explain Kendell the most right coming in last with just 4% of the vote. The SNP can't all be blamed on nationalism.

 

[nilagin]

With all the bile from TP members aimed at various politicians and describing them as idiots who don't have a clue whether they be tories/lib dems/labour/snp etc etc etc I often wonder who these members would like to see as PM or chancellor and consider them not to be idiots.

I think we're doing fine as we are.

 

[rjbell]

Although I agree it was a mistake that JC campaign didn't choose the T-shirt manufacturer more wisely. Being in the garment printing business for many years. The industry is totally dominated by fruit of the loom and gildan. If you go into any T-shirt printers in the UK or the world for that matter and ask for a couple of thousand t-shirts to be printed they will be on one of these two. The printing would have been done in the UK. The papers make out that they somehow got the t-shirts manufacturered for them.

 

[Phil V]

It's hilarious how the unthinking have allowed the billionnaire owned media to tell them how unions are a force for evil.

Lets look at industry, socialism and employee relations.

During the early 20th century, industry was owned by the few, and there was no social mobility, the Labour movement and Unions fought for workers rights, they gave us weekends, bank holidays, decent wages and health and safety laws that saved millions of lives and debilitating illnesses and injuries, and the gap between rich and poor shrunk - with both conservative and labour governments support.

From the 80's, we have dismantled the unions, and who'd have thought it, wages have shrunk, working conditions have worsened, there's less social mobility and the gap between rich and poor is at an all time high - again overseen by both Labour and Tory governments. If anyone thinks that's OK, or in some way 'inevitable' who is feeding them that b******t? No surprise it's the people who are benefiting most from cheap labour and a tax system that favours anyone who can buy their own form of justice.

 

[dejongj]

With all the bile from TP members aimed at various politicians and describing them as idiots who don't have a clue whether they be tories/lib dems/labour/snp etc etc etc I often wonder who these members would like to see as PM or chancellor and consider them not to be idiots.

I don't think Cameron as a PM is a bad one. I would have preferred someone strong like the late Lady Thatcher, but can't think of anyone on the current political scene that is capable like her.

Personally I'm really not happy with the Tory government, their summer budget will cost me a 15% tax increase next year. And in the a more variable element will limit me to a specific geographical area, estimated to be another 20% of 10% of my income affected.

So far no way around it, thus busy hatching plans to increase income streams and if not then non essential services like gardener, dog hotel, cleaner, new cars etc will have to be put on halt. So increasing my tax will affect others. The Tories don't get that, and I wonder whether Corbyn will get that.

 

[Cobra]

So far no way around it, thus busy hatching plans to increase income streams and if not then non essential services like gardener, dog hotel, cleaner, new cars etc will have to be put on halt. So increasing my tax will affect others. The Tories don't get that, and I wonder whether Corbyn will get that.

1st world problems Eh?
Some of us would actuality like to be in the position that you are in.
That's not a dig at you BTW, good luck to you

 

[nilagin]

It's hilarious how the unthinking have allowed the billionnaire owned media to tell them how unions are a force for evil.

Lets look at industry, socialism and employee relations.

During the early 20th century, industry was owned by the few, and there was no social mobility, the Labour movement and Unions fought for workers rights, they gave us weekends, bank holidays, decent wages and health and safety laws that saved millions of lives and debilitating illnesses and injuries, and the gap between rich and poor shrunk - with both conservative and labour governments support.

From the 80's, we have dismantled the unions, and who'd have thought it, wages have shrunk, working conditions have worsened, there's less social mobility and the gap between rich and poor is at an all time high - again overseen by both Labour and Tory governments. If anyone thinks that's OK, or in some way 'inevitable' who is feeding them that b******t? No surprise it's the people who are benefiting most from cheap labour and a tax system that favours anyone who can buy their own form of justice.

I've worked since leaving school in 1979 and my view on unions is absolutely nothing to do with the media and all down to experience.

 

[tarric]

I’m not a Labour voter never have been and probably never will be. The problem I have with most politicians is that they do not stand up for their beliefs anymore most will change tack depending on the latest option polls, they never give their opinion when asked, they never answer a strait question, I would just like them say what they think when asked and answer the questions put to them, not evade or give the answer that they think people want to hear. Love or hate some of the old politicians they had beliefs and stood by them. I may not agree with much of what Jeremy Corbin says but I do respect him for standing up for what he beliefs in much the same as I did for Margaret Thatcher, Enoch Powell and Tony Benn.

Please give us more like that, at least then you know what you are voting for not these wishy washy image conscious, PR. PC. driven manikins we have at the moment.

Just my opinion.

 

[Phil V]

I've worked since leaving school in 1979 and my view on unions is absolutely nothing to do with the media and all down to experience.

Your experience of paid holidays, weeekends and a decent standard of living? Or a load of trivial stuff.

 

[dejongj]

1st world problems Eh?
Some of us would actuality like to be in the position that you are in.
That's not a dig at you BTW, good luck to you

I know it isn't a dig, I don't see it as first world problems though. If taxation goes up by such an amount, and I bet there are quite a few husband and wife photography businesses who will experience exactly that then it will affect everyone. I wouldn't be surprised photographers will just up their prices instead of taking it laying down.

 

[Cobra]

I wouldn't be surprised photographers will just up their prices instead of taking it laying down.

As will many other "services" I guess

 

[dejongj]

I've worked since leaving school in 1979 and my view on unions is absolutely nothing to do with the media and all down to experience.

I agree, my encounters in work with unions have either involved trying to stop me from working, bringing my salary down to the lowest common denominator or reporting me for working weekends to want to to go back to see my family and not stay on the following week as well. Oh and they blocked my dads early retirement and payout. Nope no positive experiences whatsoever from my perspective with unions.

 

[Phil V]

I agree, my encounters in work with unions have either involved trying to stop me from working, bringing my salary down to the lowest common denominator or reporting me for working weekends to want to to go back to see my family and not stay on the following week as well. Oh and they blocked my dads early retirement and payout. Nope no positive experiences whatsoever from my perspective with unions.

So you've never had weekends, paid sick leave, paid holidays or a safe place to work?

 

[Bobsyeruncle]

So you've never had weekends, paid sick leave, paid holidays or a safe place to work?

So does that mean we should all vote labour?

 

[dejongj]

So you've never had weekends, paid sick leave, paid holidays or a safe place to work?

I do not recognise that as achievements by unions at all. Paid holidays just means that your employers will keep the money for your leave in their pocket and gain the interest and investment opportunities. A bit like how some employers help "you" budget by providing a thirteenth month.

A safe place to work is in the interest of the employers as well. In many ways it has created a whole industry around it.

Paid sick leave, again many a company already provided that. A better system should be created where short term illness is not covered in my opinion.

Burning out your staff is not a good idea for many companies, nor is constraining them with a possibility to earn.

So no, I would credit the unions with that at all. Protection for the few loose canons which is interference with the free market and thus letting corporations survive which otherwise wouldn't have.

In my opinion of course.

 

[jakeblu]

I do not recognise that as achievements by unions at all. Paid holidays just means that your employers will keep the money for your leave in their pocket and gain the interest and investment opportunities. A bit like how some employers help "you" budget by providing a thirteenth month.

A safe place to work is in the interest of the employers as well. In many ways it has created a whole industry around it.

Paid sick leave, again many a company already provided that. A better system should be created where short term illness is not covered in my opinion.

Burning out your staff is not a good idea for many companies, nor is constraining them with a possibility to earn.

So no, I would credit the unions with that at all. Protection for the few loose canons which is interference with the free market and thus letting corporations survive which otherwise wouldn't have.

In my opinion of course.

Sorry you are completely wrong on this JP, virtually every single one of those things had to be fought tooth and nail by the unions, employers did not give these concessions up willingly.

 

[dejongj]

Sorry you are completely wrong on this JP, virtually every single one of those things had to be fought tooth and nail by the unions, employers did not give these concessions up willingly.

Maybe in the UK, my experience pre-mid nineties is limited in the UK. And my family's business interests were elsewhere in Europe.

Still holiday pay, I rather have it in my pocket and spend how I like it opposed to an employer distribute it for me. I really don't get how that is such a great initiatives. But then again that is exactly the kind of redistribution I so dislike of governments as well. My money, I work for it, I'll manage it how I see fit and I don't need some other person to do it for me thank you very much.

Likewise in recognising my own market value etc. no need to pay someone else to bring it down to their level.

 

[cambsno]

How do explain Kendell the most right coming in last with just 4% of the vote. The SNP can't all be blamed on nationalism.

Because you are looking at labour voters and I do think that the vote was affected by all the new members. Would be interested to see any polls on a possible election result with all 4 of them. I.e what % of the vote would corbyn get in an election tomorrow, along with the likes of Kendall.

 

[nilagin]

Your experience of paid holidays, weeekends and a decent standard of living? Or a load of trivial stuff.

What was a good pension has been left in a worse position by the union agreeing to something that no members actually got a chance to have a say on.
The union actually trying to fiddle a vote (which hadn't gone in the direction they had hoped) on a wage claim. They rapidly changed the vote outcome to how it had gone when they realised they were about to be set upon by a few thousand, rightly so, p'd off members.
The fact that I would now be on a higher wage band as other people doing the same job for the same company, both at the same location just two different buildings, the company wanted to pay everyone the same but the union refuse to talk about it, because it was previously a different pay grade.
Union blocking an extra 5% allowance on wages for taking on extra functions and being more flexible that the company was willing sit down and negotiate, but the union blocked it and refused to negotiate it.
One union bullying another and not giving them a voice in wage negotiations because they had more members than the other, meaning the wages for their members got closer to ours for doing a lesser unskilled job.
A two day strike because the price of baked beans had gone up in the works canteen and they hadn't been consulted.
A couple of years ago, the company asked for volunteers of a few people in my area to work night shift, the union refused to allow volunteers, so all of us had to do it, even those that don't like nights. Then when we had some apprentices come out of their time and willing to work nights, I asked the management if I could swap, but again the union blocked it and I had to carry on working nights until the management didn't need the coverage anymore. I was still on nights when the company announced the plant closure, we were offered a compensatory payment not to cause any disruption between then and the final closure date, because I was on nights at the time my payment would be several thousand higher. The night shift finished several weeks later, some had. previous to the plant closure, volunteered to remain on nights, whilst I returned to my normal shift pattern. I had to approach the HR department to find out what my payment would be, had the union got their way, I would have received a payment in keeping with the shifts I was working at the closure, not at the time of the closure announcement.
When I started my new job a couple of years ago, probably the least receptive people were the union, the majority of other people welcomed us and were willing to help train us and acclimatise to our new jobs yet the union were not so, most of us were sent off to college to have some training whilst the company had to battle with the union to come to an agreement on who could train us on site etc. Some people were left sitting in a room for a couple of months before they got to do anything because the union refused to let them touch anything.
We weren't allowed to do any overtime until the union said we could, fortunately the foreman was of a different opinion and once we were confident in our new roles and he was confident in our ability he started offering us overtime anyway. When we had our final training sign off review with management and the union, and the union agreed we could begrudgingly now start overtime, the convenors face was a picture when he was told we'd already started a month or so earlier.
There's probably more instances over the past 36 years, but if you haven't seen the film Made in Dagenham, watch it, that is exactly how the unions have acted over the years, the way Ford treat their employees however, has improved by a long, long way.

 

[rjbell]

Because you are looking at labour voters and I do think that the vote was affected by all the new members. Would be interested to see any polls on a possible election result with all 4 of them. I.e what % of the vote would corbyn get in an election tomorrow, along with the likes of Kendall.

Yes new members played a major part. Isnt that significant, all those people going out of there way to join and vote.

 

[eeyore]

Never had a bad thing with the union I'm in with work. 18 years of being a member. Helping out with at least 5 HR1's over the years. Even helping me move sites and sectors within the company.
The best help I've had is with disciplinary actions ensuring a fair and balanced hearing.

 

[the black fox]

Yes new members played a major part. Isnt that significant, all those people going out of there way to join and vote.

pay 3 pounds and get a vote ,the majority of eligible normal people actually don't give a flying toss over who runs the labour party ,but set in the mould commies ,lefties ,ban the bombers ,animal rights campaigners etc will have all paid there 3 quid and voted for the loonies left ,and you can add quiet a few paid up members of the tories ,the liberals ,and the u.k indies in with them all voting to get the worst possible candidate for the job enthroned .of course you will dis-agree with that statement but its how this stupid country works and if you can't or won't realise that then your not as clever as you seem .
walk into a northern working mans club and ask 100 people whether they voted on this i bet you'll be lucky to find 1

 

[Phil V]

What was a good pension has been left in a worse position by the union agreeing to something that no members actually got a chance to have a say on.
The union actually trying to fiddle a vote (which hadn't gone in the direction they had hoped) on a wage claim. They rapidly changed the vote outcome to how it had gone when they realised they were about to be set upon by a few thousand, rightly so, p'd off members.
The fact that I would now be on a higher wage band as other people doing the same job for the same company, both at the same location just two different buildings, the company wanted to pay everyone the same but the union refuse to talk about it, because it was previously a different pay grade.
Union blocking an extra 5% allowance on wages for taking on extra functions and being more flexible that the company was willing sit down and negotiate, but the union blocked it and refused to negotiate it.
One union bullying another and not giving them a voice in wage negotiations because they had more members than the other, meaning the wages for their members got closer to ours for doing a lesser unskilled job.
A two day strike because the price of baked beans had gone up in the works canteen and they hadn't been consulted.
A couple of years ago, the company asked for volunteers of a few people in my area to work night shift, the union refused to allow volunteers, so all of us had to do it, even those that don't like nights. Then when we had some apprentices come out of their time and willing to work nights, I asked the management if I could swap, but again the union blocked it and I had to carry on working nights until the management didn't need the coverage anymore. I was still on nights when the company announced the plant closure, we were offered a compensatory payment not to cause any disruption between then and the final closure date, because I was on nights at the time my payment would be several thousand higher. The night shift finished several weeks later, some had. previous to the plant closure, volunteered to remain on nights, whilst I returned to my normal shift pattern. I had to approach the HR department to find out what my payment would be, had the union got their way, I would have received a payment in keeping with the shifts I was working at the closure, not at the time of the closure announcement.
When I started my new job a couple of years ago, probably the least receptive people were the union, the majority of other people welcomed us and were willing to help train us and acclimatise to our new jobs yet the union were not so, most of us were sent off to college to have some training whilst the company had to battle with the union to come to an agreement on who could train us on site etc. Some people were left sitting in a room for a couple of months before they got to do anything because the union refused to let them touch anything.
We weren't allowed to do any overtime until the union said we could, fortunately the foreman was of a different opinion and once we were confident in our new roles and he was confident in our ability he started offering us overtime anyway. When we had our final training sign off review with management and the union, and the union agreed we could begrudgingly now start overtime, the convenors face was a picture when he was told we'd already started a month or so earlier.
There's probably more instances over the past 36 years, but if you haven't seen the film Made in Dagenham, watch it, that is exactly how the unions have acted over the years, the way Ford treat their employees however, has improved by a long, long way.

You could have just answered my question (why would I expect that though?)