What is this vogue ...?

PMN said:
Exactly. I'm a sound engineer, I don't have a qualification but I have 20 years experience. Anyone who says I can't use the term 'engineer' will get told to go do one
I'm not a professional photographer but after 10 years anyone who says I can't use the term 'photography' if I want to will get told to go do one as well. I don't use that word but if I wanted to anyone who didn't like it could get stuffed as far as I'm concerned.

Seriously, why do people get so hung up on stuff like this? Stop looking at other people just to find something to whinge about and get on with whatever it is you do yourself.
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Steve Smith said:
Same here. I was offered a university place but I didn't take it. I have however been working as an electronic and mechanical design engineer since 1983.

Actually, I have been doing sound engineering since then too but only part time. I would hope that your knowledge from 20 years full time is greater than mine from 30 years part time.

Competence trumps qualifications every time. I have worked with a few alleged engineers who were degree qualified who couldn't engineer their way out of a room with four open doors. One who had a degree in electronics once asked me which way to connect an LED.

I'm sure the countries great engineers such as Brunel, George Stephenson, Richard Trevithick, etc. were not qualified!

So yes, I'm an engineer too and anyone who claims I'm not will have to come up with a very good reason why (which I will no doubt disagree with!).


Steve.
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Experience over qualifications every time for me. After years of working with MBAs I have come to the conclusion it stands for More Bloody Ar###oles
 
This is the problem I'm encountering now as a recent graduate in science/engineering, the old guard think anyone with a degree is worthless and refuse to give fresh graduates a chance. Just because going straight into a job was the done thing "back in the day" certainly doesn't make it the way things should be now, things have to move on and evolve or they get left behind.

I'd written a bit of a rant but decided to leave it here for now.
 
robhooley167 said:
This is the problem I'm encountering now as a recent graduate in science/engineering, the old guard think anyone with a degree is worthless and refuse to give fresh graduates a chance. Just because going straight into a job was the done thing "back in the day" certainly doesn't make it the way things should be now, things have to move on and evolve or they get left behind.
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The reason they don't get a break is because they don't have the experience and often have a false sense of entitlement. Where I work we have loads of young, educated and smart engineers, right up to PhD level. They don't have the background to understand why engineering decisions were made the way they were. It may come as a surprise but a lot of very educated and smart people have been there before and shaped the direction in which we travel. At that time they didn't all need to be degree educated either. In my opinion the best thing a grad could do is find an old boy who knows it all, listen, learn and keep their mouth shut. Their time will come soon enough.

oh, photo stuff......
 
Why do you care what others choose do do with THEIR OWN work? News flash,,, all pros started out as amateurs. Perhaps they are trying to get their names out there so they can go pro. This is really not a healthy topic for such a good forum.
 
droj said:
I've noticed a remarkable number of obviously non-professional photographers calling themselves (and what's worse, watermarking their photos) with their name followed by the word 'photography'. It seems to be a new variant of vanity publishing. Why is it so prevalent? It would be wholly understandable from someone whose income comes from their work, promoting and reinforcing their business identity, but for an amateur ...?

I'm curious about the psychology involved.

And aesthetically, however tastefully done, a watermark is an irritating intrusion into the image space.
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Mod edit: Not very nice
 
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shaylou said:
Mod edit: Not very nice
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Not quite the considered argument though, or polite.
"I believe sir, you are mistaken in your views, because...", oe perhaps if you cant post a reasoned argument then don't bother posting. Simply insulting doesn't really progress the discussion.

However there seems to be a trend recently to post something mildly inflammatory as a first post, take a stand with that position for the first few posts, then leave the chaos to ensue.
I'm all up for a reasoned debate, it's how society makes it's rules, from agreement amongst peers, but it involves discussion not insults.

Sometimes it feels like a Monty Python Sketch in here

Oh, this is futile!
No it isn't.
I came here for a good discussion about watermarks.
No you didn't; no, you came here for an argument.
An argument isn't just contradiction.
It can be.
No it can't. An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.
No it isn't.
Yes it is! It's not just contradiction.
Look, if I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position.
Yes, but that's not just saying 'No it isn't, or that's crap'
Yes it is!
No it isn't!
 
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Byker28i said:
Not quite the considered argument though, or polite.
"I believe sir, you are mistaken in your views, because...", oe perhaps if you cant post a reasoned argument then don't bother posting. Simply insulting doesn't really progress the discussion.

However there seems to be a trend recently to post something mildly inflammatory as a first post, take a stand with that position for the first few posts, then leave the chaos to ensue.
I'm all up for a reasoned debate, it's how society makes it's rules, from agreement amongst peers, but it involves discussion not insults.

Sometimes it feels like a Monty Python Sketch in here

Oh, this is futile!
No it isn't.
I came here for a good discussion about watermarks.
No you didn't; no, you came here for an argument.
An argument isn't just contradiction.
It can be.
No it can't. An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.
No it isn't.
Yes it is! It's not just contradiction.
Look, if I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position.
Yes, but that's not just saying 'No it isn't, or that's crap'
Yes it is!
No it isn't!
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Im old enough to remember that sketch!
 
Blasted said:
The reason they don't get a break is because they don't have the experience and often have a false sense of entitlement. Where I work we have loads of young, educated and smart engineers, right up to PhD level. They don't have the background to understand why engineering decisions were made the way they were. It may come as a surprise but a lot of very educated and smart people have been there before and shaped the direction in which we travel. At that time they didn't all need to be degree educated either. In my opinion the best thing a grad could do is find an old boy who knows it all, listen, learn and keep their mouth shut. Their time will come soon enough.

oh, photo stuff......
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What you've done there is demonstrate exactly the same attitude of "grads need to sit down, shut up and listen to what the old boys have to say". I'm another young engineer and there's nothing worse than that attitude. I am quite happy to be told that I'm wrong, but a new fresh pair of eyes on something can provide a different and better method. I've had ideas that I've put forward and then had someone more experienced than me tell me why it won't work, which is great. I learn, they might even learn something from my thought process. I've also had ideas struck down with a reason if "it's just wrong". That's not helpful and is exactly the sit down, shut up and listen attitude. If the only justification for the old way is that "this is just the way we do things" then it's probably not the best way.

Also, companies that say "we'll send an engineer round" no, that guy that cant figure out one end of a piece of RG6 from the other is not an engineer, nor is that guy who confirms that yes, the washing machine is broken, but he can't fix it so it will have to go back to the service centre.

Oh yeah, photography!

Several people I know who have decided they are a "photography company". One such called ****** foto ltd (sic) yet no such company exists (despite the "ltd" tag) and all the photos fall short of what I could take on my phone...
 
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miker said:
I've had ideas that I've put forward and then had someone more experienced than me tell me why it won't work, which is great.
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It is when it's correct. Something I hate at work is when I (or anyone else) suggests something and is told it won't work but gives no reason why. If someone tells me I can't do something, that is more reason to try it.

I prefer to hear ways we can do things rather than reasons why we can't.

I am an electronic and mechanical engineer without a degree. I have had experience of graduates with degrees who had no idea of the real world, but equally, of many who have a knowledge and common sense who can apply themselves to a problem.


Steve.
 
Blasted said:
...I for one have used the term photography after my name. The reason being is I wanted to make myself a website and I wanted it to be clear about its content, as well as vaguely memorable. I'm not professional as I don't get paid for it and I don't introduce myself to people by the term either.
No I don't watermark.
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Exactly the same with me.

I guess another reason could be the rule of three or possibly the watermark just looked better with a line and photography underneath rather than just having the name hanging there.
 
Steve Smith said:
I am an electronic and mechanical engineer without a degree. I have had experience of graduates with degrees who had no idea of the real world, but equally, of many who have a knowledge and common sense who can apply themselves to a problem.
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I've seen plenty of people who've studied sound be utterly clueless when it comes to actually doing the important stuff.

Then again I've seen plenty of people who 'learned' by experience be utterly clueless too...
 
PMN said:
I've seen plenty of people who've studied sound be utterly clueless when it comes to actually doing the important stuff.

Then again I've seen plenty of people who 'learned' by experience be utterly clueless too...
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Yes. I think it's much too easy to generalise. There are great and terrible people in all professions whatever their route into it and whatever their education might have been.

A lot of them manage to stay in their jobs despite being bad at it due to 'The Peter Principle' which states that employees will be promoted up to their level of incompetence.

e.g. Someone starts at a junior level and does well, after a few years he gets promoted to supervisor. This goes well and he is promoted to team leader then up to manager. As a manager he does not do well so does not get promoted but just stays in a job which he does not do well.

Most companies are not very good at recognising this problem.

Another common problem is complacency. Sometimes an employee will boast that he has fifteen years experience doing something whereas in reality, he has one year's experience, fifteen times.


Steve.
 
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miker said:
What you've done there is demonstrate exactly the same attitude of "grads need to sit down, shut up and listen to what the old boys have to say". I'm another young engineer and there's nothing worse than that attitude. I am quite happy to be told that I'm wrong, but a new fresh pair of eyes on something can provide a different and better method. I've had ideas that I've put forward and then had someone more experienced than me tell me why it won't work, which is great. I learn, they might even learn something from my thought process. I've also had ideas struck down with a reason if "it's just wrong". That's not helpful and is exactly the sit down, shut up and listen attitude. If the only justification for the old way is that "this is just the way we do things" then it's probably not the best way.

Also, companies that say "we'll send an engineer round" no, that guy that cant figure out one end of a piece of RG6 from the other is not an engineer, nor is that guy who confirms that yes, the washing machine is broken, but he can't fix it so it will have to go back to the service centre.

Oh yeah, photography!

Several people I know who have decided they are a "photography company". One such called ****** foto ltd (sic) yet no such company exists (despite the "ltd" tag) and all the photos fall short of what I could take on my phone...
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I must say that the old guys that just dismiss an idea are far and few between in the company I work for. In fact, the most senior guys here love you to challenge them with new ideas and will discuss and develop ideas you have, adding to it rather than taking your idea away.

A lot is to be said though for the attitude of the office around you. A good engineering environment should be about learning, discussion and further development - not brow beating or stomping down ideas. But I do often find that any ideas that are just dismissed are normally because the issue/idea is not understood properly, so it is dismissed for ease rather than a genuine reason. Maybe I just dropped lucky?

Dont get me started on people who call themselves "Engineers"... every fooker is an "Engineer" in the Uk apparently... all you need to do is pick up a screwdriver...
 
george g said:
I must say that the old guys that just dismiss an idea are far and few between in the company I work for. In fact, the most senior guys here love you to challenge them with new ideas and will discuss and develop ideas you have, adding to it rather than taking your idea away.

A lot is to be said though for the attitude of the office around you. A good engineering environment should be about learning, discussion and further development - not brow beating or stomping down ideas. But I do often find that any ideas that are just dismissed are normally because the issue/idea is not understood properly, so it is dismissed for ease rather than a genuine reason. Maybe I just dropped lucky?

Dont get me started on people who call themselves "Engineers"... every fooker is an "Engineer" in the Uk apparently... all you need to do is pick up a screwdriver...
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I'm pretty lucky with it too actually, that and the fact that the design/engineering office is generally quite young. We have an old fart that doesn't like me for a number of reasons that mostly seem to centre around me being young and happy. He is, however, the one that tries to shout down ideas because they aren't the way he'd do it. Fortunately the best idea (whoever it came from) is generally the one that gets developed! I've been quite lucky throughout my work to work with open minded people, but still seen plenty of the opposite!
 
miker said:
What you've done there is demonstrate exactly the same attitude of "grads need to sit down, shut up and listen to what the old boys have to say". I'm another young engineer and there's nothing worse than that attitude. I am quite happy to be told that I'm wrong, but a new fresh pair of eyes on something can provide a different and better method. I've had ideas that I've put forward and then had someone more experienced than me tell me why it won't work, which is great. I learn, they might even learn something from my thought process. I've also had ideas struck down with a reason if "it's just wrong". That's not helpful and is exactly the sit down, shut up and listen attitude. If the only justification for the old way is that "this is just the way we do things" then it's probably not the best way.
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Maybe, just maybe, sometimes they do actually just need to shut up and listen. I was one for being over enthusiastic; full of ideas about how we could do this and that, how it would save time, money and improve safety. But as I progressed in my career I realised that the system is vastly complex with many different stakeholders, each with their own goals and agendas. Combine that with the constant need to push projects forward in an environment demanding more from less, the options to step change become limited and could in fact be dangerous.

I certainly agree with giving graduates responsibility, let them learn, talk through and discuss problems, its how I learnt and I’m thankful for the people who took the time to mentor me. I wouldn’t however have gotten any of that had I not known when to shut up and listen and respect their experience, after all a number of them are industry leading experts.

And no I don’t work in a nasty; you will do what you are told environment. We are very much into developing and training people, giving them experience of other aspects of engineering and letting them move about. But we also understand the need to maintain and build knowledge. Nobody comes through the door knowing everything, it takes years.

There is a fine line between arrogance and confidence.
 
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droj said:
I've noticed a remarkable number of obviously non-professional photographers calling themselves (and what's worse, watermarking their photos) with their name followed by the word 'photography'. It seems to be a new variant of vanity publishing. Why is it so prevalent? It would be wholly understandable from someone whose income comes from their work, promoting and reinforcing their business identity, but for an amateur ...?

I'm curious about the psychology involved.
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There's no complex psychology. My own website is not about me, it's about my photography, and using the word "photography" conditions peoples' expectations accordingly. There we go. Done.

droj said:
And aesthetically, however tastefully done, a watermark is an irritating intrusion into the image space.
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Absolutely agreed. It doesn't help that 99% of them are utterly naff in design terms, even before they end up getting splashed across a photograph.
 
Blasted said:
So what do you need to be classed as an engineer then?
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In many countries around the world, the term "Engineer" is a protected status as it implies a certain level of knowledge, similar to that of Dr, or Architect in the UK. Only once you have proven your knowledge (through experience/education) can you use the term... so this would restrict companies to use the term fitters and technicians for those employees that many currently call "engineers"... like the "sky engineer" that recently fitted our box is really just a technician... a bit like you cant call yourself an electrician these days without the relevant training, or a central heating plumber without the relevant registration and training...
 
Not in the UK though so that point is pretty irrelevant. Excluding of course chartered engineers.
 
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robhooley167 said:
Not in the UK though so that point is pretty irrelevant. Excluding of course chartered engineers.
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Although it may not have been too clear, my opinion is that it should be protected in the Uk too... although Im not hopeful it will actually happen.

PMN said:
What about those idiots with a piece of paper that says they can do something who are actually inherently crap at their jobs? Or is this only a one-way thing?
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I do believe that relevant experience is as good (if not better) than a bit of paper - its the route I have taken into mechanical design (shop floor apprentice for 4 years then worked up), but there is a place for higher level learning/knowledge, if only for a different perspective on an issue.

Please don't misinterpret me by thinking I believe all engineers need to come from Master Degree stock - The best engineers I know and respect started as apprentices, but I think the term engineers implies an ability in your craft, be it sound engineer or mechanical engineer that companies stretch to the extreme when they send an "engineer" to your house...
 
george g said:
Although it may not have been too clear, my opinion is that it should be protected in the Uk too... although Im not hopeful it will actually happen.
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This entire debate is actually pointless in my eyes, and why anyone would actively want the use of the word 'engineer' protected utterly baffles me. What would it achieve? Bad engineers will always be bad engineers, good engineers will always be good engineers, what difference does whether you 'can' call yourself an engineer make? I honestly don't see why it's so important to some people.
 
PMN said:
This entire debate is actually pointless in my eyes, and why anyone would actively want the use of the word 'engineer' protected utterly baffles me. What would it achieve? Bad engineers will always be bad engineers, good engineers will always be good engineers, what difference does whether you 'can' call yourself an engineer make? I honestly don't see why it's so important to some people.
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Now replace the word engineer with Photographer and you've made a good point regarding the OP's original post.
 
PMN said:
This entire debate is actually pointless in my eyes, and why anyone would actively want the use of the word 'engineer' protected utterly baffles me. What would it achieve? Bad engineers will always be bad engineers, good engineers will always be good engineers, what difference does whether you 'can' call yourself an engineer make? I honestly don't see why it's so important to some people.
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I can see your point, but why then protect titles like Dr, Solicitor, architect?
 
"Doctor" isn't a protected title in the UK.

Anyone - and I mean, absolutely anyone - can call themselves "Doctor" whether they have a medical qualification or a PhD* or not.

What you cannot do is call yourself a "medical practitioner".

And another thing - most medically qualified doctors in the UK don't hold a doctorate at all. "Doctor" is a courtesy title that goes with their Bachelors degrees (usually two, sometimes three, but still Bachelors degrees and not doctorates). A sizeable minority do go on to study for an MD or a PhD but the medical hoi polloi are qualified to Bachelors level.

Anyway, as you were...



*Other doctorates are available
 
PMN said:
Are you really comparing solicitors and architects to people who might come round and install your broadband? You don't perhaps think they're slightly different types of job?
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Precisely. Compare that to someone that designs a bridge. Or the safety systems that stop a nuclear power plant from exploding. The point is that the person who comes round to install broadband is not an engineer. Therefore why should they be called an engineer.
 
miker said:
Precisely. Compare that to someone that designs a bridge. Or the safety systems that stop a nuclear power plant from exploding. The point is that the person who comes round to install broadband is not an engineer. Therefore why should they be called an engineer.
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Conversely, what difference does it make if they're referred to as engineers? How does it adversely affect you?
 
Personally, I don't get too worried, as long as I still get paid the going rate for a proper engineer I'm fairly happy. What it undoubtedly does do is devalue the profession. Engineer is no longer aspirational to many people, because the word has been over-used to an extent that it's lost meaning. They think that they go to school, work hard, become an engineer, then get to install broadband not far above minimum wage. Yay. Proper engineering isn't often in the public eye, so people don't see that side of it and don't get interested in that side of it. This means that many engineering industries are suffering a labour shortage. Great for some of the workers because supply & demand pushes wages up. Bad for the industry however.

Much the same way as mickey-mouse degrees have devalued decent degrees in proper topics, and brought about many of the 'student' stereotypes.
 
miker said:
What it undoubtedly does do is devalue the profession. Engineer is no longer aspirational to many people, because the word has been over-used to an extent that it's lost meaning.
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Sorry, but I think that's total nonsense. Not aspirational to be an engineer anymore? You don't think perhaps people know the difference between installing broadband and building bridges or nuclear reactors? You think someone who wants to go into serious engineering will be put off because the guy repairing the home landline phone is referred to an "engineer?"

Get real. If they're put off because of that then they clearly don't really have that much desire to go into engineering and that's their own fault, not the Virgin Broadband guy.

I'm more than willing to be corrected on this, but the only reason I can think for people getting shirty over the use of this word is that they feel either insecure or hard done by. Those years in uni, all that debt, those years on the shop floor and now some low life putting in a wireless router dares to call himself an "engineer".

As I say, correct me if I'm wrong...
 
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PMN said:
I'm more than willing to be corrected on this, but the only reason I can think for people getting shirty over the use of this word is that they feel either insecure or hard done by. Those years in uni, all that debt, those years on the shop floor and now some low life putting in a wireless router dares to call himself an "engineer".

As I say, correct me if I'm wrong...
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Pride, status, social standing, one-up-man-ship, personal goals, professional standing, recognition of work... There are many reasons why someone would want to call themselves an engineer. Why were you so adamant in calling yourself an engineer earlier??

PMN said:
Exactly. I'm a sound engineer, I don't have a qualification but I have 20 years experience. Anyone who says I can't use the term 'engineer' will get told to go do one.
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I'm not saying you cant use the term, but if you're really not that bothered by it, why be so sure in using it at all. Call yourself the levels guy/sound man/knob twiddler? You clearly hold some value to the title "Sound Engineer".
 
george g said:
Pride, status, social standing, one-up-man-ship, personal goals, professional standing, recognition of work... There are many reasons why someone would want to call themselves an engineer. Why were you so adamant in calling yourself an engineer earlier??
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You've clearly misunderstood my point. I'm not talking about people calling themselves engineers, I'm talking about why it would annoy an individual that someone else calls themselves an engineer. What possible difference does it make to you?


george g said:
You clearly hold some value to the title "Sound Engineer".
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Not really, it's just what my job title is commonly known by. That said, my point about me being a sound engineer was that after 20 years of working my backside off I'm not going to have some smug little git tell me what I can and can't call myself.

I'll ask again - what difference does it make to you if someone else chooses to call themselves an engineer? In what way does it affect you?
 
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There is a need to differentiate between the skills using a familiar term. However in the UK, engineer, has been used for other skills outside engineering. Therefore there is a need to clarify the difference. If I want an engineer to do an engineering job, many people might think I mean a technician.

Regarding young engineers: No oldie minds working with young inexperienced graduates. It's just those few know-it-all big mouths that irk everyone.

Regarding old experienced codgers with no-qualifications: Many of them run rings round the inexperienced graduates and can do it in their sleep. Usually because they have an open mind and have been learning for 30 years. But you will find a few who's mind is not open and feel the need to put the new guys down.

It's not your age. It's you attitude.
 
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