What is the most efficient modifier

stumac

stumac

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As per title can anyone give me a rough stop difference between the most common modifiers compared to a bare flash.
As an example I'm told a soft box is to be around 2 stops. So what about
White umbrella
Silver umbrella
Beauty dish
Etc
Etc
 
stumac said:
As per title can anyone give me a rough stop difference between the most common modifiers compared to a bare flash.
As an example I'm told a soft box is to be around 2 stops. So what about
White umbrella
Silver umbrella
Beauty dish
Etc
Etc
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There's just too many variables to take a stab at answering this. The size of the modifier, what it's coated within the inside, the materials used, the diffusers, grids or other attachments will all have impacts of varying levels on your light source.

The trick to using lighting is to use the right bit of kit for the job, and less about being worried about efficiencies. For example, I'd say a beauty dish and a soft box are not interchangeable... I would pick one over the other based on what it was I wanted to achieve.
 
Thanks for the reply and what you say makes perfect sense.

I'm sure though there couldn't be a massive difference between them? A stop or 2 max?
 
After Andrew's answer I don't know what to say other than 'what does it matter'.

By the time we're using flash in a studio, we're wwell past quantity of light and obsessive about the quality of it.

Logic says that a shoot through brolly is about the least efficient modifier, because of the amount of light that'll reflect back past the flash, a white beauty dish or white lined softbox isn't as efficient as a silver lined one. But the light is subtly different too.

But if you need a striplight, softbox or beauty dish, then it's for a good reason to help you create the image you want to create, whether one is half a stop or even 2 stops* brighter than another is really irrelevant.

*there's not likely to be 2 stops difference btw.
 
Phil V said:
After Andrew's answer I don't know what to say other than 'what does it matter'.

By the time we're using flash in a studio, we're wwell past quantity of light and obsessive about the quality of it.

Logic says that a shoot through brolly is about the least efficient modifier, because of the amount of light that'll reflect back past the flash, a white beauty dish or white lined softbox isn't as efficient as a silver lined one. But the light is subtly different too.

But if you need a striplight, softbox or beauty dish, then it's for a good reason to help you create the image you want to create, whether one is half a stop or even 2 stops* brighter than another is really irrelevant.

*there's not likely to be 2 stops difference btw.
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Thanks for the answer

I suppose I should have explained , I'm using speedlites outdoors and I am trying to get the most of them , the type of shot I'm after I don't think it will matter that much (within reason) what modifier I use as I just need loads of light. Would rather use some sort of modifier rather than bare lites.
I don't have the money for a safari etc at the moment before someone suggests it.

Basically without going into too much detail I'm trying to overpower the sun with 3/4 lites, and rather than buy every type of modifier and learn the expensive way I thought I'd ask here
 
Right, that's different.

What Phil said is correct, but not entirely relevant to you. For info though, generic statements that "Softboxes lose 2 stops of light" are just wrong. They don't lose light as such, they just spread it around a large area, and how much of it is spread around depends on
1. Distance
2. The design of the softbox
3. The efficiency of the diffusers.

Back to your situation, you will really struggle with ordinary flashguns, your best solution by far is to shoot in really poor light - dawn, dusk or miserable weather.
 
Garry Edwards said:
Right, that's different.

What Phil said is correct, but not entirely relevant to you. For info though, generic statements that "Softboxes lose 2 stops of light" are just wrong. They don't lose light as such, they just spread it around a large area, and how much of it is spread around depends on
1. Distance
2. The design of the softbox
3. The efficiency of the diffusers.

Back to your situation, you will really struggle with ordinary flashguns, your best solution by far is to shoot in really poor light - dawn, dusk or miserable weather.
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Thanks Garry , yes I've been leaving it to late evening so far , but I now have 4 lites I can use together and was hoping i may get the results I'm after in brighter sunlight.
So are you possibly saying a gridded softbox would work better than ungridded because of the tighter light .
 
A gridded softbox will concentrate the light into a smaller area, but you will actually lose light - a lot of the light is simply absorbed by the honeycomb. And the more efficient the honeycomb, they greater the light loss.

If you have barebulb flashes, or have a diffuser fitted over the flash, then simply using a softbox with no diffusers fitted to it would produce more light. But if you have a standard flashgun the softbox will do virtually nothing without diffusers, the light from the flashgun is just too directional and most of the light won't hit the walls.

I understand that a Safari Li-on is outside your budget, what about an Atom 360? Far more powerful than any flashgun, and barebulb too. If that is an option, don't buy it until at least Sunday, I can't tell you why but I'm sure you can work it out for yourself.
 
mike weeks said:
It is Sunday Garry and nothing has change unfortunately.

Mike
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I get my priorities right, I go shooting on Sunday mornings:)
But now I'm back, and the price of both Atom 180 and Atom 360 kits has been reduced by £50
 
Garry Edwards said:
I get my priorities right, I go shooting on Sunday mornings:)
But now I'm back, and the price of both Atom 180 and Atom 360 kits has been reduced by £50
Click to expand...

Ill get a good look at them.
With regards to your standard speedlite(580ex)
How much more powerful is the atom in terms of twice, four times etc
 
stumac said:
Ill get a good look at them.
With regards to your standard speedlite(580ex)
How much more powerful is the atom in terms of twice, four times etc
Click to expand...

Richard (HoppyUK) reckons that most speedlights give out about 110Ws - he has carried out exhaustive tests and field-levelling tests, so he should be right.
But I disagree, I think that they give out about the equivalent of 110Ws because the figure is greatly exaggerated by the mirror-like reflector, which of course produces a pretty harsh and uneven light unless it's diffused, which of course knocks the effective power right back.

You could just rely on the manufacturer's claimed guide No of 58, but this too is deceptive because they test for the guide number at the maximum zoom setting, which exaggerates it no end - Other manufacturers are no better and this is why the Nikon SB-900 has a higher guide No than the more powerful SB-800, which doesn't zoom as far...

So, I can't answer your question, other than to say that the guide No. for the Atom 180 is a true 60, that's when fitted with the standard reflector, which has an angle of 35 deg, and the guide No. for the Atom 360 is a true 80, same reflector. So if you go by Richard's figures the Atom 180 produces just over 150% more light and the Atom 360 produces twice that. My own figures just about double that, with all things being equal, i.e. with a very narrow angle reflector fitted to them instead of the standard reflector.

I don't know whether Richard (or anyone else) has tested the 580 at a zoom setting of 35 degrees, to get a more accurate guide number? I can't do that as I don't use Canon.
 
That's great Garry and thank you for the reply
 
Garry Edwards said:
Richard (HoppyUK) reckons...

<snip>
Click to expand...

My comparison tests of hot-shoe guns' output, though quite extensive and as fair as I can make them, have never been more than 'estimates' of power, or 'equivalents' in terms of Watt-seconds. They put a Canon 580EX at 120Ws, Nissin Di866 at 110Ws and Nikon SB900 at 150Ws.

I use a Lastolite Umbrellabox for this, which is a 100cm reverse-firing white umbrella with softbox front, because it can be fitted to any flash head or gun and it collects 100% of the light and scrambles and projects it in essentially exactly the same way. But I've also got very similar figures using a regular umbrella, white and silver, or a standard double-diffuser softbox - all within 10%. Things would be different with say a strip-box or beauty dish, due to the speedlites' reflector design.

But a Watt-second is a measure of energy stored in the capacitors, not light output, so those numbers can never be more than a rough guide to brightness. However, having tested several dozen different studio heads now, I have a pretty good idea of how Ws generally convert in terms of light, and most of the major brands are broadly similar.

I haven't yet tested the new Lencarta Atoms, but all the evidence suggests they're pretty punchy, and the bare bulb design will help too. And it would be pointless if they were not substantially brighter than any hot-shoe gun as that's what they're about - real portable power.

Personally, I have even less faith in guide numbers than I have in Ws when it comes to comparing real-world total brightness (just too many significant variables in measurement methods) but I'd be surprised if the Atom 180 doesn't have getting on for twice the brightness of the average high-end speedlite, and the 360 maybe four times as much. That's up there with the Elinchrom Quadras.

The other things are the Atoms' recycle times, battery capacity, and ability to keep on working flat-out long after the average speedlite has either over-heated and cut-out, or gone into terminal meltdown.

BTW, Canon manual says 580EX has a guide number of 36 (ISO100/m) with the head set at 35mm*.

*Edit: sorry, Garry wanted 35 degrees not mm, which would be a 58mm lens on full-frame, so between Canon's quoted figures of GN42 at 50mm, and GN50 at 70mm, ie GN45-ish. One stop up on GN45 (x1.4) would be GN63, so in fact if you take those figures as comparable it shows the Atom 180 (GN60) as a bit under one stop brighter than a Canon 580EX - more or less in line with my Ws estimates.
 
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Getting back to the OP, the brightest modifier by far is the tulip-shaped design, like this Lencarta High Intensity version http://www.lencarta.com/lighting-store/light-shapers/high-intensity-reflector I used one recently and it measured 2.5 stops brighter than Lencarta's 85cm Profold softbox. It's basically doing the same thing as zooming a speedlite head to max, concentrating the light into a narrow beam.

These modifiers are popular outdoors not only for their brightness, but they also don't catch the wind so much. Shadows can be harsh though.
 
Richard,
Thanks for that, I hoped you'd see my post.
The Lencarta high intensity reflector does give hard shadows of course, because one of its main benefits is that it can be used from a much greater distance than most other modifiers, but it's still a much bigger lightsource (300mm diameter) than a hotshoe flashgun. I tend to use it with the Safari to
create
Click to expand...
sunlight on a dull day or to backlight, where shadows just don't matter, or if it's a big set and the light source needs to be a long way away to be out of shot. Indoors, I tend to use it for bounce.

Personally, I have even less faith in guide numbers than I have in Ws when it comes to comparing real-world total brightness (just too many significant variables in measurement methods) but I'd be surprised if the Atom 180 doesn't have getting on for twice the brightness of the average high-end speedlite, and the 360 maybe four times as much. That's up there with the Elinchrom Quadras.
Click to expand...
Agreed. My testing method is at a distance of 3m in a large studio, where there will be minimum "help" from reflected light. Most manufacturers seem to test at shorter distances in small studios with white walls...
 
Another thing about guide numbers is they are measured in the centre of the projected light pool, and I've yet to see a speedlite with perfectly even brightness all over, and the light pool tends to be more rectangular/oval rather than circular, too. The fall-off across the frame varies from not much at all to very noticeable. So in other words, that's another thing that tends to inflate the numbers, and distort comparisons.

An example of that might be my measurements of the Canon 580EX vs Nissin Di866, where the Nissin has a slightly higher claimed GN, but my measurements put total output at about 10% lower.

Basically, there are so many variables that it's actually impossible to compare power outputs exactly and produce a figure that will always apply. And on top of that, a Watt-second isn't a measure of brightness anyway! I would say my figures are a pretty good guide, but if someone else with a similarly robust testing method came up with figures that were 10% or even 20% different, I wouldn't doubt them.
 
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what is it for exactly? (headshots, full length portraits, food)

Best bang per £ will clearly be umbrellas - cheap and provide nice soft light (and plenty of spill which you may or may not want)

Softboxes are probably the most versatile and more expensive (again could be not what you need)

Some like beauty dishes, and all sorts of things. There is NO right or wrong ANSWER.
 
Thanks everyone for the helpful replies.

I'm using it for mainly full length portraits.

At the moment I'm using 3 speedlites in an umbrella but I'm struggling to over power the sun .
 
stumac said:
Thanks everyone for the helpful replies.

I'm using it for mainly full length portraits.

At the moment I'm using 3 speedlites in an umbrella but I'm struggling to over power the sun .
Click to expand...

This will probably work best in a smaller softbox, as umbrella or something big will loose a lot of light to the sides. Unless you manage to find some strip light softbox that will position all three flashes on the bottom, centre and top.

A lot will depend on settings. High speed sync will lose a lot of flash power (1/60s is the maximum output then it slowly gets weaker to the X-sync, and dives after), but on the other hand you might want to use lower ISO and faster shutter speed to darken the sky. It will be a balance, but from experience should be doable with a single 580EX off camera (wasn't easy though)
 
daugirdas said:
This will probably work best in a smaller softbox, as umbrella or something big will loose a lot of light to the sides. Unless you manage to find some strip light softbox that will position all three flashes on the bottom, centre and top.

A lot will depend on settings. High speed sync will lose a lot of flash power (1/60s is the maximum output then it slowly gets weaker to the X-sync, and dives after), but on the other hand you might want to use lower ISO and faster shutter speed to darken the sky. It will be a balance, but from experience should be doable with a single 580EX off camera (wasn't easy though)
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A full-length portrait, with a softbox, and over-powering sun is not going to happen with a single 580EX gun. Your description of HSS doesn't stack up either.
 
HoppyUK said:
A full-length portrait, with a softbox, and over-powering sun is not going to happen with a single 580EX gun. Your description of HSS doesn't stack up either.
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I'll get you a sample done when the sun comes out again next year or so :lol:
It may not be what you ideally want but you can

not sure why you need to pick on things (I am not going to write a book chapter so I guess it is easy to add things up between the lines and extrapolate to me being obviously :cuckoo:). I hope you are not trying to suggest that I implied 1/60s being HSS, if so good luck with the rest
 
daugirdas said:
I'll get you a sample done when the sun comes out again next year or so :lol:
It may not be what you ideally want but you can

not sure why you need to pick on things (I am not going to write a book chapter so I guess it is easy to add things up between the lines and extrapolate to me being obviously :cuckoo:). I hope you are not trying to suggest that I implied 1/60s being HSS, if so good luck with the rest
Click to expand...

Because it's not good advice, that's all.
 
HoppyUK said:
A full-length portrait, with a softbox, and over-powering sun is not going to happen with a single 580EX gun. Your description of HSS doesn't stack up either.
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Perzactly.

The below is about the best that I've had out of a Nissin 866.

17mm, f/22, 1/125th shot on a 5DII with bare on camera flash at closeish range (2m?) with the flash on manual full blast against an early April sun at 4pm.

It could easily have been improved by taking the flash off camera an sticking it on a stand, giving the light more height and some angle - but that wasn't the point of the shoot.

Even with the above, the sky has been grad'ed and there's been some judicious D&B applied in Lightroom. If I'd have put a modifier on the light, I'd have had no chance.


NCTJ-Flash.jpg
 
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