What is it with Parents scowling at photographers?

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Zuba said:
It would probably make a big difference, however I would still expect the photographer to approach me and I need not go hunting them down to find out what they are up to. If you take some candid shots, then come to me, show me the pictures so I can rest assured you are not weighing my child up for anything sinister then I'd be much more relaxed and less inclined to fly off the handle. The fact of the matter is you dont know me and with out my saying so you would never have know anything about my past, it could have been anything, my child could have a fear of cameras you just dont know, wouldn't it be better to ask if possible, or approach the parents after the fact to show them what you are snapping so they can be a little assured that you are not zooming in for a close up for untoward reasons. It is really simple, you could have the best of both worlds just by asking permission and then you can relax have fun shoot away knowing you are not going to get floored by some over protective father?
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And then be floored and get called a p***. I agree in an ideal world that would be great but we are talking about a world where people get mugged and attacked for no reason, so why put yourself in a situation that there is no reason to as it is legal. I would be more suspicious if someone came up to me and said Look at the photos I just took of your daughter aren't they nice. the reason being i would then think that they are trying to cover something up. I would think that there are photo's of your children out there that you do not even know about, Taken by other people on days out where you have been in the background, walking past something as they take the picture.

I got confronted several years back while taking landscape shots, made no difference that the camera was pointing in the totally opposite direction and my kids were running about and talking to me, the family believed I was breaking the law, tried to explain but to no avail, still took a mouth full of abuse, should I have asked there permission to take photos in totally the opposite to where they were sitting, no and if I had would I have got a different reaction, no i believe it would have made matters worse.
 
Zuba said:
Firstly from what I studied in Psychology perverts and the like avoid confrontation, they will tend not approach an adult if there interest is in children, 9/10 they find it difficult to articulate what they are doing when questioned, then there are the signals you can pick up from a liar, lack of eye contact, constant blinking, flushing red, the list is quite endless, but there are things you can pick up on. It may not be right a hundred percent of the time but what does it matter, you may offend one genuine person out of a hundred for mistaking him/her as a perv its life, I'd much rather that than not doing anything.
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Wrong way round you will offend 99.9 genuine people and maybe catch .1 of a perv. As stated child abuse is for more likely to committed by family members or close family friends.
 
Zuba said:
Iwouldn't it be better to ask if possible, or approach the parents after the fact to show them what you are snapping so they can be a little assured that you are not zooming in for a close up for untoward reasons. It is really simple, you could have the best of both worlds just by asking permission and then you can relax have fun shoot away knowing you are not going to get floored by some over protective father?
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Playing devils advocate for a minute but I would say these would possibly be the actions of a paedophile who wanted to connect with a family and worm their way into getting closer access to their children

MB
 
Zuba said:
Firstly from what I studied in Psychology perverts and the like avoid confrontation, they will tend not approach an adult if there interest is in children, 9/10 they find it difficult to articulate what they are doing when questioned, then there are the signals you can pick up from a liar, lack of eye contact, constant blinking, flushing red, the list is quite endless, but there are things you can pick up on. It may not be right a hundred percent of the time but what does it matter, you may offend one genuine person out of a hundred for mistaking him/her as a perv its life, I'd much rather that than not doing anything.
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but there's not a Perv round every corner. And many of those behaviours you've described may just be shyness or any one of a dozen other reasons, without been rude thats daily mail physchology. It does matter - and 99% of adults ain't pervs

I actually think I see where you're coming from, and I'd challenge anybody behaving suspeiously round my kids, but anybody with a camera? No.

Hugh
 
There's nothing wrong with your concerns if you spotted somebody who has singled you child out. What has got people's backs up was labeling togs in general who take shots with children in as perverts. Thats just blanket discrimination. I don't think anybody has been directly rude to you but most of your replies have been pretty sharp. You don't have to come here to make friends but is doesn't mean you can't be friendly. :)
 
Zuba said:
Not anyone with a camera anyone singling my children out for their shots. I couldn't care less if you have a camera I'm not about to run round calling everyone who owns a camera a perv, I own one :lol: Just anyone who doesn't ask, doesn't approach me or gets shirty when I ask what they are doing, I think thats fairly reasonable and I would be more than prepared to discuss with the tog the photos, what he plans to do with them etc.
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As I said - I understand what you are tryig to get across, but it has also been presented as very sharp.

You can't always tell whats in frame. Just again for the record, if somebody approaches me, and want to look at my camera they are likely, but not certain to get told where to go.

:) Its not unreasonable, but how its presented may make it so.

Cheers

Hugh
 
Zuba said:
If it would offend you people asking what you are going to do with photographs and why are you taking them of their child then you are far too easily offended.

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I am not easily offended, but it would depend on how it was done.

"Excuse me why are you taking a picture of my son/daughter." would be fine but in the real world 99% of people who are going to ask that question because of the media, as you said in one of your earlier post "the media have made parents more aware the situation " it is far more likely to be

" Oh perv why the effing jeffing are you taking pictures of my effing jeffing son/daughter" followed :bat: in a lot of cases.

I am not saying that is the way you would approach the matter but a lot would. Done in a polite manner I have no issue with a parent asking, but I should not have to seek permission to do something that is legal before I do it in the same way that you do not see why you should have to ask and not be asked.

i know thay it seems like we are going round in circles but again as you said in another post you do not have to agree with everything people say, so I guess we are going to have to agree that we disagree on this. As I said earlier I am not having a dig at you and I admire you for sticking to what you believe, even when I do not agree.
 
Zuba said:
Sharp? Well I apologise if you think that however I haven't been angry at anyone, so can only assume that punctuation has caused my messages to get read a little wrong, however I did try to ignore your post previously but it was too good an opportunity to mention the fact that people haven't really cared less in general about my threads asking for critique and in fact, while I'm back on that subject, I am member to several other forums, non-photography ones, where by my pictures got better critiqued than here, the one place I was expecting the best advice. :lol:
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Give it time and keep posting, you are still pretty new to the forum as am I. Not all pictures posted for c&c get enough feedback sometimes.

We can all read peoples comments and sometimes take them the wrong way. You initially assumed I was commenting on taking pictures of children but my posts were all connected to your labeling of togs as pervs. I shoot motorsport mainly and at the moment have no real interest in portrait stuff so cannot offer a helpful opinion on candid shots of children.
This thread will be forgotten soon and I am sure you will get all the advice you need to help you take some great shots of your child and dogs. :)

BTW you dog is lovely, I have a German shepherd and a Border Collie.
 
Zuba, Would you have a problem if a photographer from the local rag took a shot of your child? Because there's every chance ( if your child had a part to play / carnival etc ) the paper could print the name aswell as the image so the local 'merv' would have surely more information than if another tog just took the shot. Please correct me if i'm wrong as i am guessing to a point but i think i have seen kids names in the local rag in the past.


P.S Being thought of as a perv will twist the gut of ANY decent bloke.

P.P.S I even get 'those' looks from mums when i am the only dad at soft play!!
 
Zuba said:
Well you speaking to me gives me a chance to find out a think for myself what I think about you and if I'm not sure about you then I'll say I'm not happy with you taking pics of my child, however if you wish to take pictures of the other children in the park that is between you and their parents and I'll remove my children and take them else where, simple, no one gets annoyed, :shrug:
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WHAT DO YOU MEAN ME?!?

I was giving you my opinion not laying out a scenario in which I was a suspect for you to interrogate :annoyed:

MB
 
hepburn said:
I just don't get why this subject keeps cropping up. It's real simple - there is no assumption of privacy in a public place, and therefore no photography limits (aside from a few location and anti-terror restrictions). Just get out and shoot away. If anyone challenges you just keep your cool, educate them or call the police (accordingly), and stop letting the uneducated masses spoiling your hobby.

Simples... :D
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Unfortunately, as this greek can attest, it isn't quite as simple as that any more.

http://www.talkphotography.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=133930&highlight=greek

Or perhaps there are already 5 pages more before I type this?



Whilst I was on holiday this year, I felt that I could not take my camera out during the day around the swimming pools, even those marked as adults only (some lovely birds around, these ones had wings). The adults pools were clothed ones, but the attitude around seemed to suggest that anyone could come and attack any kid. I was disappointed at this. However, I did manage to get a couple of nice night shots of the pools once everyone had gone.

When I was in disney last year, I did feel that I need to ensure that any photo I was framing up, contained almost 100% landscape or my family, no general interest/atmosphere shots. People seem to have a guarded effect against those who have something more that a camera phone even there.
 
Zuba said:
Sharp? Well I apologise if you think that however I haven't been angry at anyone, so can only assume that punctuation has caused my messages to get read a little wrong, however I did try to ignore your post previously but it was too good an opportunity to mention the fact that people haven't really cared less in general about my threads asking for critique and in fact, while I'm back on that subject, I am member to several other forums, non-photography ones, where by my pictures got better critiqued than here, the one place I was expecting the best advice. :lol:
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Actually I think it's all the "call me what you like" comments and assuming that people are suggesting you are a *itch or idiot when all that is going on is discussion / debate that gives a sharp tone to your posts. It comes across as very negative and pretty derogatory of the other posters as I wasn't aware of anyone chucking personal insults your way. Combine this with the perceived labelling of togs as pervs and people will start to take things maybe too personally or misinterpret what you are trying to say.

As for the C&C - I'd encourage you to stick around and keep posting. There is a wealth of knowledge on this forum and it would be a shame not to give it more of a chance. I actually have commented on one of your pics - I could get the hump about your above post and say if the C&C that has been given isn't appreciated then I won't bother in future... but that would be silly and not in keeping with what this forum is about. I can't offer much in the way of portrait C&C as a) it's not my thing at all, and b) I'm still learning myself. Hopefully someone else offer you some more useful C&C.
 
I would also hope you stay around.

but I must say I looked at your pics of the child and was slightly afraid to comment as you might of thought I had been looking at them for too long or something.
 
Zuba said:
I have to say I wouldn't like random people taking pictures of my child, is it that hard to ask for consent, explain what you are doing before hand? I think if they were in a performance or a display or dressed up for something then I would be more lenient however if I am out and about with my child and we are relaxing and doing normal stuff and someone started taking pics I'd be quite angry about it. In fact they catch me on the wrong day of the month they'd be liable to have a camera rammed somewhere unpleasant ;) How do we as parents know which photographers are the good ones and which are perverts? The fact is we dont know and no pervert is going to confess they are so we have to assume that, unless you ask us and explain why you want a few pics, you could be using our childrens pictures in anyway imaginable and it doesn't necessarily have to be in a perverted way, you could do anything at all with the pictures on your cameras and we will never know what has been done.

My child is the most precious thing in the world to me and I will protect him in any way imaginable and if that makes me a b*tch or an idiot or whatever else you have in mind then so be it.
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While not condoning real paedophilia in any way whatsoever, I feel I must protest at this post.

First, if someone takes a pic of your child and uses it in an unpleasant way in their own home, for instance, what harm is going to come to your child from that? None at all as far as I can see.

Secondly, there are far fewer perverts out there than the media and social services and the public hype about the subject would have you believe. Far better (and kinder) to assume the best about someone (that they have no ill-intentions) than to assume the worst! Why do we have to treat everyone as a danger until they prove they are not? That's like being guilty till proven innocent - and by the way, it is well nigh impossible to prove you are innocent of anything, because if you didnt do it, there is no evidence, because you werent there! All that can be drawn from the lack of evidence is a supposition that therefore you are innocent - that is why we have the rule in this country that you are innocent till proven guilty. Please, let's keep it that way!
 
Zuba said:
Its not your job to decide if any parent is an abuser is it? Yet as a parent it is my job to decide if a photographer who is taking pictures of my child is a pervert,
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No it isnt - and I speak as a mother and foster parent.

[/QUOTE]I would air on the side of caution and say that togs all are when it comes to my child rather than no one is and let just one pervert slip through the net.
[/QUOTE]

It's 'err' not 'air' and your position is both untenable and disgusting.
 
jolsterj said:
ok

what about taking pictures of adults.?

That lady in the photo could be hiding from her husband who beat her to a pulp.

now by pure chance someone who knows him tells him and he now knows where she lives.

Or she could be in witness protection.

just playing devils advocate.
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Or she could be hiding from the mafia, or the taxman, or social services, or she could be running from X, Y or Z etc.

To be honest, if I had taken the photo, I personally couldn't care less about who she's running from, hiding from or not running from or hiding from. She could be in any number of predicaments or she could not be. I certainly don't have the time nor inclination to find out about each person's predicament before I take photos of them.
 
welly said:
Or she could be hiding from the mafia, or the taxman, or social services, or she could be running from X, Y or Z etc.

To be honest, if I had taken the photo, I personally couldn't care less about who she's running from, hiding from or not running from or hiding from. She could be in any number of predicaments or she could not be. I certainly don't have the time nor inclination to find out about each person's predicament before I take photos of them.
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your a nice person then ha ha.

i understand what you are saying but saying ''you couldnt care less'' if you printed the pic and her husband found her then killed her is a bit uncaring dont ya think?
 
problem being yes there maybe 200 peeps on line at any time......................but phew what a lot of posts to get through.

not everyone is interested in the same thing ie motor sport or landscapes.

i myself do weddings/portraits but did not even come across your post until i read this thread and now as said above am afraid to comment.
 
Zuba said:
Sorry but you are not making much sense? this is about photographers taking pictures of children, not about how many other people could be molesters, from my experience a p*** ring used candid shots they took at a park to get children.

As for the agency the same could be said for schools, after school activity clubs, etc, people can get your address if they really want it. The agency though since you ask, has 6 staff and I know them all personally. None of them take his picture when we visit else I'd be asking questions, they get updated shots, (two), every month, chosen by me. The website is password protected even for parents and we can only see our own childs portfolio. My details are not public to anyone, all they get from his profile is the childs name and body credentials, eg clothes size, shoe size, etc. That is why I have an agent, it is their job to protect my child. No client can or will contact me personally because they have no access to my details not even telephone, it all goes through the agency. License docs come from the client to the agency to my local authority back to the agency and only what is needed is passed onto the client. In fact its probably safer being a child model than it is going to school :lol:
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The point I was making is that your concerned about strangers taking your childs photo because they could target him, but you don't know that someone from the studio or agency won't target him either, just because you know them doesn't make them any safer. It's more lightly someone you know would harm him than a total stranger.
Wayne
 
Zuba said:
Daysleeper I did appreciate your post and updated straight after with a shot where I tried to get down on her level, so I took what you said on board, however with what? 200 members online at any one time I expected more, especially from the pics of my son, I posted the same pics on a dog forum asking the togs on there for advice and got more responses than I did here and that dog forum has if its lucky 40 members online at a time. up until I got noticed on this thread my son's pics had one response ;)
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Unfortunately critique is sometimes like this, a lot of people feel as they are still learning that they are not in the position to offer it. I have had photos that get a couple of comments that I expected more on while others that i did not expect so much on get a lot more. I think it is the nature of all forums in general. I will also say that the more you post the more people will comment.
 
jolsterj said:
your a nice person then ha ha.

i understand what you are saying but saying ''you couldnt care less'' if you printed the pic and her husband found her then killed her is a bit uncaring dont ya think?
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I'll worry about that if that rare occasion arises :) Life is too short to worry about the consequences of each and every action one makes!
 
welly said:
I'll worry about that if that rare occasion arises :) Life is too short to worry about the consequences of each and every action one makes!
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too true too true.

i re read and it sounded quite harsh, did'nt mean to be

just having a debate;)
 
Zuba said:
I would air on the side of caution and say that togs all are when it comes to my child rather than no one is and let just one pervert slip through the net.


It's 'err' not 'air' and your position is both untenable and disgusting.

So it is my position if you don't like it tough its not changing because you are a fosterer and a mother, like I have said its my opinion and I am entitled to it and if you want to make corrections for everyone go ahead you'll be a while I've seen loads. Oh and try continuing to the end of the thread before posting cause while you were not here we've been over this a million times.
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:nono: truely unreal. How unpleasant do you want to be - you've just managed to insult every tog on here, bloke with camera=perv:bang: what next?

how much C & C do you want - people told you exactly how to improve your photos or do you want to hear how wonderful they are?
 
RuthG said:
It's 'err' not 'air' and your position is both untenable and disgusting.
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oh my god.. spelling mistakes.. are you serious? you should follow me around the forum.. you would ahve a ball :)
 
Zuba said:
Pathetic, I asked for critique of a photo I took, now I'm the sort of person who is going to jump down your throat for looking? Nice, fyi I wouldn't know how long you'd been looking any way.


Thank you but you can count this as my last post, sick of going round in circles, I have an opinion I'm entitled to it and I'm not going to go over and over again defending myself. Then you get someone who thinks they are real big and clever trying to make a point by correcting mistakes which is just rude and secondly starting the cr*p again because they couldn't be bothered to read the whole thread before commenting. Yes Ruth that is you.

So thanks for those wishing I stay but there are many more tog sites in the sea so to speak.
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yes maybe it is pathetic but because of your posts on here i would stay away from looking yet alone commenting on your pics, you are very aggressive.
 
Zuba said:
Daysleeper I did appreciate your post and updated straight after with a shot where I tried to get down on her level, so I took what you said on board, however with what? 200 members online at any one time I expected more, especially from the pics of my son, I posted the same pics on a dog forum asking the togs on there for advice and got more responses than I did here and that dog forum has if its lucky 40 members online at a time. up until I got noticed on this thread my son's pics had one response ;)
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I think Jolsterj has hit the nail on the head - this forum is growing and while a lot of people are online there are also a lot of posts to get through. I take part in the 52 project with a number of other members and we all comment on each others weekly photo's. It takes a surprisingly long time! Point is if I am doing that on a given day then I probably won't have much time to C&C other peoples shots - but its nothing personal.

There are so many different sections as well and people are likely to stick to what they know / enjoy best. On a dog specific site I'd imagine that all members are going to be more interested in dog portraits so you would get more replies on that particular shot :shrug:

Also - and this isn't a dig, but how many other members photo's have you offered C&C on so far? The more you post yourself, the more likely you are to get to "know" people and build up a bit of rapport. Stick around, keep posting and I'm sure you'll start to get the feedback you're looking for ;)
 
boyfalldown said:
:nono: truely unreal. How unpleasant do you want to be - you've just managed to insult every tog on here,
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I can assure you i havent been insulted... its a messageboard... not actually real life you know :)
 
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