What functionality of the CLS system would I lose, using wireless triggers?

[Naboo32]

OK, I'm a bit of a newbie when it comes to 'unavailable light' photography, so please go easy on me .

I've read a lot of stuff about the Nikon CLS (mainly in the "Hot Shoe Diaries" of Joe McNally ) and have experimented a fair bit with using my SB-900 off-camera as a remote unit, triggered by my D700s built-in flash. Now, I have added a second SB-900 to the kit bag, as I want to experiment with using one flash as a background light and the other (also off-camera) as illumination for the main subject. So far, so good !

However, I am a bit puzzled about the triggering options for those situations where one of the SB-900s can't see the signal from the D700's flash . So, I am trying to understand the different flash-triggering options that exist, so that I can buy the right tool for the job first time around.

I've read (extensively) how Mr. McNally relies on his SU-800 commander unit (or an SB-800/900) to act as the (optical) trigger for his (often) numerous Speedlights, but I'm often left wondering whether it would be possible to use (cheaper) wireless receivers and a transmitter to control these Speedlights in the same way :shrug:!? It occurs to me that one might lose some of the functionality of the CLS, if these radio transmitters do not interact properly with the commander unit (camera or SB900, in my case) .

Anyway, my question is:

Could somebody please explain (as briefly, or in as much detail as they like) to me how a system with (say) two remote SB-900s and a pair of wireless triggers, would differ from a system with two remote SB-900s and an SU-800 acting as Commander, in terms of functionality :shrug:?


I suppose that I'm just thinking; if there's no loss in functionality, why would anyone choose to use an expensive and not always reliable optical trigger system . There must be a good reason for it, I just need someone to tell me what it is .

Thanks in advance.

 

[ShawWellPete]

Using CLS you can control each flash from the back of the camera. So, in manual flash, you can adjust that rim light without having to physically walk over the light. You also, of course, get the option to use TTL which you do not have with wireless triggers where everything is always manual.

I tend to use CLS indoors and radio triggers outdoors.

 

[Flash In The Pan]

You'd lose the all the CLS/TTL functions using wireless triggers. I work the same way as Pete, CLS indoors, wireless out. Although when I tested my SU-800 in the shade I could get a range of over 60ft, but in sunshine (whatever that is :shrug wireless triggers are far superior.

 

[HoppyUK]

With radio triggers you lose all CLS functions - manual only. The only exception currently is the RadioPopper radio system, which is a) new, b) not available in the UK, c) expensive. We're still waiting for the Pocket Wizard version.

As Joe McNally shows, there is usually a way to get CLS to work remotely in tricky situations. I find my Canon guns have got quite a bit of range if you rotate the sensor so it faces the master flash squarely, even outside. In bright sun, shading the sensor helps. Indoors, there's no problem at all even when the sensor is hidden.

One idea that others have tried is to use a long dedicated TTL cord, like 10m (FITP sells them for forty quid or so) and put the commander unit on the end of that, close to the other remote guns so there's no triggering problem. This won't help much if you want to use the camera's pop-up flash as the commander though, but you can usually work it so that the commander gun works as a contributing flash as well.

On the other hand, considering the time it usually takes to set up a remote multiple flash shot, using the guns on manual maybe isn't too much more trouble. I use Yongnuo RF-602 radio triggers, as do most people - cheap and reliable from FITP.

 

[ryanyboy]

Get an SU-800 - far easier to adjust the remotes than delving into the D700's menu and (imo) more reliable than the pop-up flash.

Wireless triggering is the most reliable but you need more time with them as you need to "visit" each flash in turn to adjust output.

I prefer using my flashes in manual mode (when I've got the time between shots) so the loss of TTL isn't an issue.

HTH

 

[Flash In The Pan]

Get an SU-800 - far easier to adjust the remotes than delving into the D700's menu and (imo) more reliable than the pop-up flash.

although for the price of the SU-800 I often wonder if another SB-800 or an SB-900 might not have been a better investment for a master.

 

[ryanyboy]

although for the price of the SU-800 I often wonder if another SB-800 or an SB-900 might not have been a better investment for a master.

Good shout - but I still find the SU-800 a bit easier in terms of controls

 

[Naboo32]

I had to log off right after I posted my question (sorry about that), but I'm astounded at the number (and helpfulness) of all of your posts - thank you all very much !

So, the jigsaw puzzle is coming together in my mind, at last. Radio triggers don't work in the way that I thought/hoped that they did, if they can only send 'triggering' info to the speedlights and not 'settings' info . Well, that certainly explains why we're not all using them all the time and how Nikon can continue to sell the SU-800 at £240 a pop!

I can now see why Joe McNally seems to prefer optical triggers to radio transmitters, as it allows him to maintain total control behind the camera (as he can afford endless amounts of SBs, SUs, cables, stands and assistants).

For my purposes then, the answer seems to be ... learn to set everything in manual mode! As I'm never likely to end up using more than 2 or 3 Speedlights at a time (how many of you have said that in the past ?), I guess that it's really not going to be that hard to go and tweak them individually.

although for the price of the SU-800 I often wonder if another SB-800 or an SB-900 might not have been a better investment for a master.

I have to say, Graham, I would much rather add a third SB-900 to my (small) lighting kit, than stick with just two of them and add an SU-800, even if it does cost me another £80. I guess that the SU-800 really benefits people who are either shooting (indoors) with many flashguns, or use a few but on a daily basis - I don't fit that description :|.

...

One idea that others have tried is to use a long dedicated TTL cord, like 10m (FITP sells them for forty quid or so) and put the commander unit on the end of that, close to the other remote guns so there's no triggering problem. This won't help much if you want to use the camera's pop-up flash as the commander though, but you can usually work it so that the commander gun works as a contributing flash as well.

On the other hand, considering the time it usually takes to set up a remote multiple flash shot, using the guns on manual maybe isn't too much more trouble. I use Yongnuo RF-602 radio triggers, as do most people - cheap and reliable from FITP.

Hi Hoppy !

Well, the TTL cord might work on the distant Speedlight, in certain situations (as long as it doesn't appear in the picture ), but if it robs me of the possibility to use the SB-900 that's attached to it as a contributing flash, then it's no use at all, as I'd be down to just one Speedlight then.

I think that I prefer the idea of the RF-602s, all things considered.



I'll have another read of FITPs gear thread and see if I can work out what I need (although there's no great hurry, as the RF-602s appear to be on back order ). Of course, if I'm going to add another flash for outdoors and trigger it via a radio transmitter, I might as well not spend £330 on another SB-900 and just get a cheapie unit instead, as I'll be adjusting it manually anyway :shrug:. Much to think about here ...


Thanks again for the input, folks !

 

[specialman]

Naboo, what about Pocket Wizards? TTL control but at a price...

I went with Elinchrom Skyports in the end because I don't mind the whole issue of manually setting flash power etc... I'm going to Focus @ NEC to purposely see just how CLS could work for me outdoor because it's without doubt a great indoor tool....

 

[HoppyUK]

<snip>

Hi Hoppy !

Well, the TTL cord might work on the distant Speedlight, in certain situations (as long as it doesn't appear in the picture ), but if it robs me of the possibility to use the SB-900 that's attached to it as a contributing flash, then it's no use at all, as I'd be down to just one Speedlight then.

I think that I prefer the idea of the RF-602s, all things considered.

I don't see why you could not use the commander unit as a contributing flash. I guess there might be a situation, but it would be unusual.

So long as all units are reasonably close together, which they generally have to be anyway because flash light doesn't travel very far, you shouldn't have many triggering problems using the cord. The receiver units don't need line of sight if they're close enough to the commander. Just the inconvenience of the cord in the first place. And you get CLS control for £40. Receiving slave guns can be cheapies - they all act as auto slaves, even the cheap Yongnuos.

But I agree RF-602s are a good plan, considering the price. Why not get both?

 

[Naboo32]

Naboo, what about Pocket Wizards? TTL control but at a price...

I went with Elinchrom Skyports in the end because I don't mind the whole issue of manually setting flash power etc... I'm going to Focus @ NEC to purposely see just how CLS could work for me outdoor because it's without doubt a great indoor tool....

Thanks for the suggestion, Pat . I did actually look at their website yesterday, as I've heard people here mention them before (and always in the context of, "they're good, but bloody expensive"! ). Ultimately, I couldn't quite figure out if they were fully compatible with CLS either (they seem to favour Canon :thumbsdown and then I went and Googled the prices .... .

So, probably not the right solution for a numpty like me .

 

[Flash In The Pan]

Good shout - but I still find the SU-800 a bit easier in terms of controls

Which is exactly why I ended up buying one...

 

[Naboo32]

I don't see why you could not use the commander unit as a contributing flash. I guess there might be a situation, but it would be unusual.

Well, it was your previous use of the word, "usually", which made me think that it might not always work ...

...

This won't help much if you want to use the camera's pop-up flash as the commander though, but you can usually work it so that the commander gun works as a contributing flash as well.

...

That was all.

...

So long as all units are reasonably close together, which they generally have to be anyway because flash light doesn't travel very far, you shouldn't have many triggering problems using the cord. The receiver units don't need line of sight if they're close enough to the commander. Just the inconvenience of the cord in the first place. And you get CLS control for £40. Receiving slave guns can be cheapies - they all act as auto slaves, even the cheap Yongnuos.

But I agree RF-602s are a good plan, considering the price. Why not get both?

You may well be right with your last comment. I could try one system (probably makes more sense to start with the long cord, as I will retain control of the CLS) and if that doesn't work well enough, I can move on to Plan B .

It's also great news that I can use "cheapie" flashes to trigger wirelessly, as the prospect of adding a third SB-900 and having 1,000 quid tied up in flash guns alone, does make me a bit nervous (as an amateur togger) :shake:. Most of the time, I expect to only be using two anyway (and maybe the D700's built in flash for catch lights), so I'm happy that I bought the second one and can control everything from the camera .

Whilst we're on the subject of "cheapie" flashes - will the TTL metering function on FITP's YN465 only work when the unit is on the camera's hot shoe (or attached via a cable), or can it be controlled optically by other Speedlights in the same group :shrug:? Sorry if this is rather basic stuff, but I've no experience with flash guns other than the SB-900.

 

[Dangleman]

Hang on a cotton picking minute. The new pocket wizrds with TTL aren't out yet for Nikon are they??? I'd managed to 'forget' about these for ages, happily struggling along with CLS....

Edit- still just canon at the moment I see from their website, unless I'm missing something. When will the Nikon versions be out?

Edit 2 - (posted on their site Dec 2009) "Nikon Mini/Flex: We have made substantial progress on the Nikon ControlTL system and the Nikon versions of the MiniTT1 and FlexTT5. The industrial design, circuit board, and hardware engineering is complete. The remaining development activities are focused on firmware. &#8232;

&#8232;We are planning several rounds of beta releases over the next few months while we continue to program our ControlTL system for Nikon&#8217;s camera and flash operating systems. Firmware development and testing is a very complex process of mapping ControlTL&#8217;s advanced functionality to the millions of potential combinations of Nikon camera and flash interactions.&#8232; &#8232;

Reflecting lessons learned over the past year, we expect the beta period to be longer for Nikon products. This will assure the best possible results.&#8232; &#8232;

We know that many of you are eagerly awaiting these products and share our goal of producing a great first product release. We will continue to publish product updates to you on a regular basis as it moves toward a finished product."

 

[Flash In The Pan]

Hang on a cotton picking minute. The new pocket wizrds with TTL aren't out yet for Nikon are they??? I'd managed to 'forget' about these for ages, happily struggling along with CLS....

Edit- still just canon at the moment I see from their website, unless I'm missing something. When will the Nikon versions be out?

I believe they're pencilled in for release on Judgement Day...

 

[boyfalldown]

I believe they're pencilled in for release on Judgement Day...

I thought it was the 1st of never

 

[HoppyUK]

Well, it was your previous use of the word, "usually", which made me think that it might not always work ...

That was all.

My experience, although it is limited to quite simple stuff, is 'always' actually when all the guns are within four or five metres of the commander unit. But I haven't yet used them in very challenging situations. Basically, if they're close, or anywhere indoors, or outside when it's overcast, no problem.

I honestly think you'll have no problem most of the time without anything else necessary unless outside in bright light is your style, in which case then use the cord which will help enormously I think, and finally you'll have the Yongnuos which will always work whatever, albeit in manual.

You may well be right with your last comment. I could try one system (probably makes more sense to start with the long cord, as I will retain control of the CLS) and if that doesn't work well enough, I can move on to Plan B .

It's also great news that I can use "cheapie" flashes to trigger wirelessly, as the prospect of adding a third SB-900 and having 1,000 quid tied up in flash guns alone, does make me a bit nervous (as an amateur togger) :shake:. Most of the time, I expect to only be using two anyway (and maybe the D700's built in flash for catch lights), so I'm happy that I bought the second one and can control everything from the camera .

Whilst we're on the subject of "cheapie" flashes - will the TTL metering function on FITP's YN465 only work when the unit is on the camera's hot shoe (or attached via a cable), or can it be controlled optically by other Speedlights in the same group :shrug:? Sorry if this is rather basic stuff, but I've no experience with flash guns other than the SB-900.

Yes. They all work as wireless slaves. Just about every new gun currently on the market. It's the master/commander functions that are reserved for the expensive top-of-the-line jobbies.

 

[Naboo32]

My experience, although it is limited to quite simple stuff, is 'always' actually when all the guns are within four or five metres of the commander unit. But I haven't yet used them in very challenging situations. Basically, if they're close, or anywhere indoors, or outside when it's overcast, no problem.

I honestly think you'll have no problem most of the time without anything else necessary unless outside in bright light is your style, in which case then use the cord which will help enormously I think, and finally you'll have the Yongnuos which will always work whatever, albeit in manual.



Yes. They all work as wireless slaves. Just about every new gun currently on the market. It's the master/commander functions that are reserved for the expensive top-of-the-line jobbies.

It just gets better and better . Thanks for all of your help, Richard (and everyone else, too ).

 

[Kanine]

Here's what I have (I've just got the SB900 )

SB900 - Commander. Probably the best commander you can buy, EXCEPT if you have reflective subjects, the triggering preflashes might be seen. Main advantages over SU-800 are - Complete manual control over 3 groups A B and C, as well as being able to contribute to exposure itself. The SU 800 can only offer manual control in complete stops, the SB900 is the only commander that can control flashes manually with 1/3rd stop. Advantage is it's a flash and a commander in one, while only being slightly more than the SU800. So easy to use. Only bummer is visible light trigger. But this can itself be avoided if really necessary by using High Speed Sync (at the cost of flash power).

1x800 and 2x600 slave units. That way I'm not spending an entire fortune on slave flashes, whilst retaining full CLS capabilities. Only had the 800 as I got it for a good deal, you could do with 3x600s for even less!

This way you can have 4 independantly controlled TTL or manual flashes without leaving your camera. A sync cable would give you more flexibility with the on camera flash too!

 

[desantnik]

On the subject of Pocket Wizards TTL things... haven't all those Canon users been cursing those things due to problems... then binning them?

Fantastic idea... but..