What do you think of the world only existing in an app

[BADGER.BRAD]

Phones using the latest software do ask if you want app developers to be able to share your data.

Online sources suggest this is just a method of cutting out the competition and Apple will still collect the data and without the competition they will make a killing ! Not sure how true this is but it is believable !

 

[Ricardodaforce]

Online sources suggest this is just a method of cutting out the competition and Apple will still collect the data and without the competition they will make a killing ! Not sure how true this is but it is believable !

Apple are incredibly upfront about what data they collect. Them NOT selling my data on to app developers is a huge win in my view.

 

[sirch]

I was listening to a podcast the other day which came up with an interesting idea, Instead of app makers earning big ££££ from your personnel data they should be forced to ask you if they can use it and if you agree you should have a large share of the profits !

For those few apps and websites that make money off personal data the "profits" per individual are very small, there are just lots of individuals, a large share of not a lot is still not a lot. The vast majority of "apps" make no money at all from your personal data, they are about making a business more efficient as so making the business more profitable.

 

[BADGER.BRAD]

Apple are incredibly upfront about what data they collect

If you listen to Apple/Google/Amazon/facebook they are Very good people in fact so good they should be Gods or at least saints, After all what good double glazing sales men would tell you there products are naff leak like hell and will only last a year before they fall out ? If you listen to others this group of companies are the biggest corrupt data harvesters on the planet ,Remember Cambridge Analytica working on behalf of facebook ? This was just the one they got caught on ! Did Facebook tell everyone what they where doing before they were caught ? Not really a concern for me as I stay as far away from them as possible and the only app I have is one called a telephone.

 

[BADGER.BRAD]

There's a short story called The Machine Stops which I think was written in 1909. It's worth a read and it's interesting how the author visualised things that at that time were just fantastic.

That story is truly amazing Mr Woof

 

[woof woof]

That story is truly amazing Mr Woof

It is and to think it was written so long ago.

 

[ancient_mariner]

It is and to think it was written so long ago.

Technology may change, but people never.

 

[AndrewFlannigan]

Technology may change, but people never.

I don't know about that. We're each a product of our environment and our technology shapes that environment.

As to the prescience of the author: he was doing what science fiction had done long before him and ever since as well. He looked at his own world and imagined how the development of existing technology might change that world. If you read a good cross section of the writing of his contemporaries, you'll find that this was not unusual at the time or since.

Even his pessismismistic outlook was nothing new, Wells and Verne having explored that vein more than a decade earlier. Several writers contemporary with Forster predicted global catastrophe caused by the increasing pace of technological change. Forster is better known because his writing style was (and is) more to the liking of a wide readership.

 

[Phil V]

It is in some instances a "skill" issue or a technical one. Me and Mrs WW are having horrendous issues at the moment with an app that wont let us log onto it. In an extreme case this could lead to her being deported. And it seems next to impossible to talk to a human with the skills to sort the issue out.

Another example is that fiasco with sub postmasters. Shocking.

Real and even life changing issues do occur if there's no trained, competent and accessible human in the chain.

The sub-postmaster issue had nowt to do with technology and everything to do with corruption hiding incompetence. It was obvious in testing that the tech was faulty, but incompetent management pushed for implementation anyway. And when the problems started surfacing, rather than admitting they knew there may be technical issues, managers doubled down on hiding faults they were aware of - to the point where they lied about previous cases to the CPS and courts.

Dishonesty and human failing were the pivotal issue.

 

[Phil V]

so if I'm a dole dosser that would be fine

I told them I had a job ( obviously an alien concept)

What do you think ?

I think the above makes you sound like a judgemental oaf.

BTW my brother in law (criminal defence solicitor) calls old Nokia phones 'sex offender phones' as it's often a condition of release that a sex offender can't have a smartphone - would you be happy with other people being as judgemental about your phone as you seem to be about alternative working patterns, the sick, disabled, people that have lost their job due to the pandemic?

 

[whiteflyer]

Two things, A) just because someone is unemployed doesn't make that a dole dosser.
B) how many in the thread moaning about apps and online are still members of a photo club that meets in person.

 

[woof woof]

The sub-postmaster issue had nowt to do with technology and everything to do with corruption hiding incompetence. It was obvious in testing that the tech was faulty, but incompetent management pushed for implementation anyway. And when the problems started surfacing, rather than admitting they knew there may be technical issues, managers doubled down on hiding faults they were aware of - to the point where they lied about previous cases to the CPS and courts.

Dishonesty and human failing were the pivotal issue.

I don't agree with the point you're making. These are different issues but both at heart faulty tech issues made worse by people who can not or will not fix the problem. You can and do seem to be arguing that human failure is the route cause and that's a good argument and the same argument can be made for any technical failure as it's humans ultimately behind it all, not fish or squirrels or pixies.

My general point was and is that the drive to push everything on to tech/apps affects those most vulnerable especially when finding anyone who can effectively intervene can be so difficult evidenced by prosecuted postmasters and me and Mrs WW being shoved from dept to dept with no real attempt to help beyond the provision of cut and paste links and requests to phone someone else. Anyone else. No doubt to keep the call actioning rate up. You could say that it's all caused by the evil Tories as there aren't enough staff to deal with technical issues so they just effectively fob you off to another dept and move on to the next caller and for all I know do the same to them too or you could say that too much reliance is placed on gaining access to and being able to use technology, which can fail, with no easy access to anyone skilled or able to effectively intervene.

 

[Phil V]

I don't agree with the point you're making. These are different issues but both at heart faulty tech issues made worse by people who can not or will not fix the problem. You can and do seem to be arguing that human failure is the route cause and that's a good argument and the same argument can be made for any technical failure as it's humans ultimately behind it all, not fish or squirrels or pixies.

My general point was and is that the drive to push everything on to tech/apps affects those most vulnerable especially when finding anyone who can effectively intervene can be so difficult evidenced by prosecuted postmasters and me and Mrs WW being shoved from dept to dept with no real attempt to help beyond the provision of cut and paste links and requests to phone someone else. Anyone else. No doubt to keep the call actioning rate up. You could say that it's all caused by the evil Tories as there aren't enough staff to deal with technical issues so they just effectively fob you off to another dept and move on to the next caller and for all I know do the same to them too or you could say that too much reliance is placed on gaining access to and being able to use technology, which can fail, with no easy access to anyone skilled or able to effectively intervene.

I’m not suggesting that there wasn’t a technical fault, but the sheer scale of the cover up is something unique. It makes the fraud committed by the motor industry look like an ‘accident’.

There were dozens of senior managers watching people’s lives being torn apart, and being jailed, in the certain knowledge that the evidence against them was flawed. They didn’t just allow it to happen, they hid the evidence of previous cases to ensure more lives were ruined.

Feel free to disagree, but the fact that it was faulty software is an aside IMHO.

 

[AndrewFlannigan]

You can and do seem to be arguing that human failure is the route cause

Human failure is clearly a common cause of information problems, as you've just demonstrated so cleverly.

 

[Nod]

 

[Garry Edwards]

Human failure is clearly a common cause of information problems, as you've just demonstrated so cleverly.

All of the postmasters were legally guilty of false accounting because, when they rang the support line after seeing that there was an alleged discrepancy of £X, they were told that they had to accept the amount of the shown shortfall and that the post office would sort the problem out, and they did press the button to accept it, they had no choice because the system locked them out until they had accepted it, ergo they agreed to a false figure and were therefore guilty of false accounting.

Then, when the post office were forced to do something, due the number of cases, their response was to set up an "independent inquiry" that was in fact entirely staffed by their own employees, employees of the faulty software firm and tame union members, so not independent at all. Their conduct was disgraceful and if it hadn't been for Computer Weekly and then Private Eye, they would have got away with it.

But, really a problem with dishonesty and arrogance rather than with technology.

 

[BADGER.BRAD]

I think the above makes you sound like a judgemental oaf.

You are right I was being judgmental on a system that rules out the biggest percentage of workers working between 7am and 5pm gives them two fingers and favours the smaller percentage of working people. As far as my phone is concerned I have been told on many occasions that my phone is a drug dealers phone ,Drugs being one of the biggest employment providers of the youth where I originally come from and still work.,I was wondering why it had took you so long to turn up Phil your normally much faster with your trolling when a thread becomes an out of context argument !

 

[Box Brownie]

The sub-postmaster issue had nowt to do with technology and everything to do with corruption hiding incompetence. It was obvious in testing that the tech was faulty, but incompetent management pushed for implementation anyway. And when the problems started surfacing, rather than admitting they knew there may be technical issues, managers doubled down on hiding faults they were aware of - to the point where they lied about previous cases to the CPS and courts.

Dishonesty and human failing were the pivotal issue.

I’m not suggesting that there wasn’t a technical fault, but the sheer scale of the cover up is something unique. It makes the fraud committed by the motor industry look like an ‘accident’.

There were dozens of senior managers watching people’s lives being torn apart, and being jailed, in the certain knowledge that the evidence against them was flawed. They didn’t just allow it to happen, they hid the evidence of previous cases to ensure more lives were ruined.

Feel free to disagree, but the fact that it was faulty software is an aside IMHO.

All of the postmasters were legally guilty of false accounting because, when they rang the support line after seeing that there was an alleged discrepancy of £X, they were told that they had to accept the amount of the shown shortfall and that the post office would sort the problem out, and they did press the button to accept it, they had no choice because the system locked them out until they had accepted it, ergo they agreed to a false figure and were therefore guilty of false accounting.

Then, when the post office were forced to do something, due the number of cases, their response was to set up an "independent inquiry" that was in fact entirely staffed by their own employees, employees of the faulty software firm and tame union members, so not independent at all. Their conduct was disgraceful and if it hadn't been for Computer Weekly and then Private Eye, they would have got away with it.

But, really a problem with dishonesty and arrogance rather than with technology.

The way the PO behaved at an individual, admin, corporate and ownership level was a huge travesty. But the those that bore the responsibility for the whole affair have yet to be prosecuted themselves and that just adds insult to injury of those whose lives have so badly affected. Just where does the buck stop for those at the top, to pay for their 'crime'???

 

[Phil V]

You are right I was being judgmental on a system that rules out the biggest percentage of workers working between 7am and 5pm gives them two fingers and favours the smaller percentage of working people. As far as my phone is concerned I have been told on many occasions that my phone is a drug dealers phone ,Drugs being one of the biggest employment providers of the youth where I originally come from and still work.,I was wondering why it had took you so long to turn up Phil your normally much faster with your trolling when a thread becomes an out of context argument !

I think you need to get your head out of your anus. Millions of people work shifts and the world doesn't turn without them - the bloke who delivers food to the supermarket, the ones who stack the shelves, doctors, nurses, carers, police, ambulance etc etc etc. Anyone else who works part time hours. Then forget the workers and add in almost half the population who are retired or similarly economically inactive. Add in the sick and disabled, the actual number of unemployed people is a tiny proportion of the number of people likely to be available to go into the bank during the daytime.

Your post was frankly obnoxious, you've got a 1970's idea of normal and rather than move with the times you're shouting at clouds. I rarely read Out of focus nowadays - it was a slow football match Your post could have been interesting, but you chose to throw in a couple of lines that were unnecessary and offensive.

 

[ancient_mariner]

I don't know about that. We're each a product of our environment and our technology shapes that environment.

As to the prescience of the author: he was doing what science fiction had done long before him and ever since as well. He looked at his own world and imagined how the development of existing technology might change that world. If you read a good cross section of the writing of his contemporaries, you'll find that this was not unusual at the time or since.

Even his pessismismistic outlook was nothing new, Wells and Verne having explored that vein more than a decade earlier. Several writers contemporary with Forster predicted global catastrophe caused by the increasing pace of technological change. Forster is better known because his writing style was (and is) more to the liking of a wide readership.

I'm not familiar with the specific story, but am very much with science and conventional fiction over quite a wide period. We ARE a product of our environment, but we usually try to manage that envronment driven by conventional hopes, wishes, pressures and desires that tend to be similar across mankind. The more successful - as in enjoyable to read - writers tend to recognise the basic humanity of their characters and work with that over and above any technology involved in the story, and stories tend to be a bit painful when the tech comes to the fore. That's true whether the writer is Scalzi, Asimov, Verne or Shelley.

I find some of the ancient classics quite interesting for how little humanity has changed despite so many cultural changes - Thucidydes account of the Pelopponesian war with Athens is an interesting read for our present times.

 

[simon ess]

Thucidydes account of the Pelopponesian war with Athens is an interesting read for our present times.

I've been thinking about this quite a lot recently.

 

[ancient_mariner]

I've been thinking about this quite a lot recently.

Plague, superstition and the political system gone to hell in a handcart?

 

[simon ess]

And...
The bullying economic empire that claims not to be an empire. The triumph of nationalist militant politicians and the collapse of democracy.

 

[whiteflyer]

Millions of people work shifts and the world doesn't turn without them

I have not had a 9 to 5 job for over 30 years, and after being made redundant last September at 60 I have not worked ( and have no desire to do so again). I'm living off years of saving, not on the dole, not a lazy benefit claimant. Just someone who worked shifts, saved up and understands it's 2021 not 1975.

I will admit that when I very first started working shifts back in the late 80's and going into town shopping I did think why haven't these people got a job, took me a very short time to realize they were all like me, working shifts and nights. I still heard it from colleagues at work very recently moaning how they see all the jobless shopping, some did look shocked when I explained that they were shopping at the same time, so maybe all those "jobless" also work shifts or funny hours.

 

[BADGER.BRAD]

I still heard it from colleagues at work very recently moaning how they see all the jobless shopping,

Whilst I of course take it on board what your saying in fact I work strange hours in my day job ( work load tripled due to Covid 19) plus have two small businesses which I have to deal with most people that I know work somewhere near the 6ish to 6ish hour system, The few that don't are still complaining about the banking hours as they finish at 2 pm and still have no access to the banks ! Some of that part of the comment was based on my experience where I used to live and still own property, It was a running joke that in my street only two people worked one being me and the other a work colleague, this was how the local area was set up.

PhilV I can see you have attempted to post back to me but really don't bother I've blocked you, ! Your Trolling pompous self righteous attitude is rather boring you only ever turn up to argue with other people and are always there when there is an argument , a proper weak minded keyboard warrior !

To the others I appreciated your honesty with you thoughts a discussion wouldn't be a discussion without both sides being argued.

 

[whiteflyer]

I'm a little surprised your bank closes at 2pm on a weekday, I presumed this is a small branch. I know mine TSB has stopped doing sat mornings, but a couple near me do open on a sat, I know it can be a hassle to move, but if it's really important to you !

Actually I just had a quick look and your right, the HSBC in the nearest town to me has a 10:00 to 14:00 open hours, which I agree is ridiculous.

 

[Garry Edwards]

I'm a little surprised your bank closes at 2pm on a weekday, I presumed this is a small branch. I know mine TSB has stopped doing sat mornings, but a couple near me do open on a sat, I know it can be a hassle to move, but if it's really important to you !

Actually I just had a quick look and your right, the HSBC in the nearest town to me has a 10:00 to 14:00 open hours, which I agree is ridiculous.

Several banks started doing this, allegedly because of Covid, which of course is a ridiculous excuse.

 

[Ricardodaforce]

Several banks started doing this, allegedly because of Covid, which of course is a ridiculous excuse.

Not if they had staff who were ill, isolating or shielding.

 

[ancient_mariner]

Not if they had staff who were ill, isolating or shielding.

After 2pm?

 

[Ricardodaforce]

After 2pm?

Maybe there were not enough staff to man the place a full day. As someone that does rotas I know how challenging the past 6 months have been.

 

[BADGER.BRAD]

The Bank I use is Lloyds, The hours are a bit of a kick in the teeth really as I've not stopped working all the way through Covid , in fact my work load has increased by three times with all safety measures being impossible in what I do. All of us at sometime have had Covid (60 plus of us) luckily with no ill affects, My wife is in the danger group so I had to live in my caravan/Summer house for 4 months. I have considered changing but as I have multiple accounts for personnel use plus a couple of business accounts it would prove difficult !

 

[ancient_mariner]

Maybe there were not enough staff to man the place a full day. As someone that does rotas I know how challenging the past 6 months have been.

It would be surprising for a bank to operate shifts for their customer facing role.

 

[Mr Bump]

personally I love a lot of the apps, why would I want to call some horrid phone monkey and waste my time on things i can do from an app or online on a web page. especially banking and credit card so easy on the apps.

I understand there are people who are extremely elderly or simply cannot use the tech but to be honest when i hear people simply pushing against a really good system for no reason i just sigh

 

[Carl Hall]

My main bank account now is with a company that doesn't have high street branches and doesn't even do internet banking via a website. It's the app or nothing, and I love it.

 

[Cobra]

but to be honest when i hear people simply pushing against a really good system for no reason i just sigh

Internet banking yes, via the PC, my local branch about a mile away is open 9-5 week days & 9-3 Sat.
So if I need to speak to someone a real person, and not waste time on someone reading from a script, its dead easy

 

[cambsno]

Its the only way I do banking, I've never yet found it an inconvenience.

I find app banking so much easer. No needing to remember my customer number/password and anything else I need to ask. Just face ID and the app opens. I can go online, check balance and transfer money far quicker than I can with a computer, Plus, if setting up a new person I dont need to faff around with the card reader thing.

 

[Cobra]

Just face ID and the app opens.

mugged for phone and its held against your face?

No needing to remember my customer number/password and anything else I need to ask.

And I'm happy to do the 2 step verification.

I dont need to faff around with the card reader thing.

No faffing around its just a few seconds besides I'm in no rush to pay people

 

[Nod]

Face recognition is great. Sometimes it doesn't recognise me at all and sometimes it recognises me when I'm wearing a mask and shades.

 

[BADGER.BRAD]

Similar thing with voice recognition from my bank it just doesn't work for me ,I recently phoned them up and complained ( I was trying to pay a new person) and the person I spoke to said it hardly ever works ! I then had to go to the cash point ( some distance away) and then do a 50 mile round trip to pay someone. I find technology great until it doesn't work ! A company I do some work with recently replaced it's old system ( people who know what they are doing) with a computerized system designed by someone who doesn't know the job and has never even been there ,result was half the work didn't get done and a lot of the work was done twice or more plus no one knew what had gone wrong or how to rectify it ! It converted people who knew what they we doing into a load of totally confused people and cost many thousands in the process.

Tech is great as long as you have people who know how to use it ,how it works and how to fix it and it was needed in the first place .Unfortunately the more sofisicated it becomes the less likley this will be.