What do you make of this then?

No problem, Phil. I'm just getting tired of a few people posting on this subject who're hiding their pseudoskepticism behind the mask of science. It doesn't take much for true colours to emerge though.
 
Dean you know what you believe, or at least what the possibilities may be; don't let anyone persuade you differently. Folks are very fast to take the mick out of something they have neither experienced nor understand.
 
Viv, I have no idea why I persist in trying to debate with closed-minded people. It must be a character flaw. ;)
 
The23rdman said:
No problem, Phil. I'm just getting tired of a few people posting on this subject who're hiding their pseudoskepticism behind the mask of science. It doesn't take much for true colours to emerge though.
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There really is nothing pseudo about my skepticism. It is absolutely real, I can assure you. And it has not in any way been hidden, it is quite out in the open. Do my (repeated, ignored) requests for some sort of substantiation for your claims come as a surprise? Do you think I should simply believe what you tell me?

What are my true colours? Perhaps we could at least get an explanation for that claim? You have failed to substantiate any of the others.

And do you stand by your earlier statement that
I do not believe in anything paranormal
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(post#141). You seem to be arguing strongly on the side of believers. Was that a typo?
 
No idea what you're saying, Jon. Your unicorn comment put you on ignore.
 
jon ryan said:
There really is nothing pseudo about my skepticism. It is absolutely real, I can assure you. And it has not in any way been hidden, it is quite out in the open. Do my (repeated, ignored) requests for some sort of substantiation for your claims come as a surprise? Do you think I should simply believe what you tell me?

What are my true colours? Perhaps we could at least get an explanation for that claim? You have failed to substantiate any of the others.

And do you stand by your earlier statement that (post#141). You seem to be arguing strongly on the side of believers. Was that a typo?
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Jon, from where I am sitting, and I know what has happened to me over the years, can I prove it, no I can't, but I know it happened, to you because I can't prove it you won't believe it and will call me a lier and then take the p*** with comments about your unicorns, at which point there is no point in answering you questions because all you do is ask for proof, which you know can not be provided and then call the person a lier and take the p***.
 
Davec223 said:
Jon, from where I am sitting, and I know what has happened to me over the years, can I prove it, no I can't, but I know it happened, to you because I can't prove it you won't believe it and will call me a lier and then take the p*** with comments about your unicorns, at which point there is no point in answering you questions because all you do is ask for proof, which you know can not be provided and then call the person a lier and take the p***.
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If you read through this thread, you will agree that at no point have I called anyone a liar, so perhaps you'd like to withdraw that. All I am asking for is some sort of evidence to support the claims that have been made. I think this is quite reasonable.

I would love psychic power to have some sort of basis in reality! But I am not going to believe that it has until someone can demonstrate it. When I buy a new camera, I test it, read the reviews, listen to people whose opinions I trust. Then and only then do I buy it. I do not buy it on the strength of the manufacturer's claims.
 
jon ryan said:
If you read through this thread, you will agree that at no point have I called anyone a liar, so perhaps you'd like to withdraw that. All I am asking for is some sort of evidence to support the claims that have been made. I think this is quite reasonable.

I would love psychic power to have some sort of basis in reality! But I am not going to believe that it has until someone can demonstrate it. When I buy a new camera, I test it, read the reviews, listen to people whose opinions I trust. Then and only then do I buy it. I do not buy it on the strength of the manufacturer's claims.
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jon ryan said:
Indeed. But if you expect people to believe they happened, you have to offer proof. At least, that's what my unicorn says.
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So your not saying that the the above quote is saying prove it or you are lying.
 
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Davec223 said:
QUOTE="jon ryan;5224410"]

Indeed. But if you expect people to believe they happened, you have to offer proof. At least, that's what my unicorn says.
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So your not saying that the the above quote is saying prove it or you are lying.[/QUOTE]

Or even that dismissing my last anecdote out of hand and professing to be off feeding your unicorns isn't a backhanded way of calling me a liar.
 
Your ignore button seems not to be working.

If I thought you were lying, I would say: "I think you are lying."

I simply think you are mistaken in your belief (if it is your belief - I have now asked you a couple of times about your 'I do not believe in anything paranormal' line in post 141. Can you clear this one up?). The unicorn reference is a nod to the Invisible Pink Unicorn absurdest debunking of theism. Basically, it is saying that a negative is unprovable. You cannot prove I do not have a unicorn. A common trait of people with, shall we say, extremist beliefs is to use the 'you can't prove me wrong' argument in the knowledge that they are right, at least in this. But when asked to provide evidence for their claims, they have at tendency to, let's pick a random example, tell you to stick your head up a unicorn's rectum and then put you on ignore. To me this suggests that perhaps their arguments fail to stand up to rigorous examination. Or even superficial examination come to that.
 
As far as I can see the only intelligent and zetetic way to approach this subject is this:

From anecdotal evidence and studies so far done there appears that there may be observable phenomenon happening that we cannot explain within the confines of our current paradigm. It is also apparent that we have yet to provide conclusive evidence for these observed phenomenon so the zetetic approach would seem to be to look for new methods of testing in the hope that we find a reconciliation.

This approach makes more sense to me that to ridicule.

Oh, and I'm still ignoring you, Jon, so you only pop up in other people's quotes. Feel free to apologise and you can come back on board.
 
It's far more rational explanation for 'sightings' than dead people with dead clothes and dead shoes and socks coming back to visit us, but just tantalisingly out of direct sight.
 
Stratman said:
It's far more rational explanation for 'sightings' than dead people with dead clothes and dead shoes and socks coming back to visit us, but just tantalisingly out of direct sight.
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I'm just not sure what relevance it has to this thread. I've already stated my stance is one of open-minded zetetic. I recognise that the majority of sightings etc will have a rational explanation, and I acknowledge that we see our brain programs rather than reality. That does not, however, explain everything and certainly not the second anecdote I posted, which is as accurate as I can make it with zero embellishments.
 
The23rdman said:
As far as I can see the only intelligent and zetetic way to approach this subject is this:

From anecdotal evidence and studies so far done there appears that there may be observable phenomenon happening that we cannot explain within the confines of our current paradigm. It is also apparent that we have yet to provide conclusive evidence for these observed phenomenon so the zetetic approach would seem to be to look for new methods of testing in the hope that we find a reconciliation.

This approach makes more sense to me that to ridicule.

Oh, and I'm still ignoring you, Jon, so you only pop up in other people's quotes. Feel free to apologise and you can come back on board.
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What would you like me to apologise for? Failing to stick my head up a unicorn's rectum? Can you prove I haven't?
 
That's actually quite funny. :D

I don't care if you apologise or not, tbh. You've shown your colours and been completely dismissive without asking a single pertinent or genuinely enquiring question.
 
The23rdman said:
That's actually quite funny. :D

I don't care if you apologise or not, tbh. You've shown your colours and been completely dismissive without asking a single pertinent or genuinely enquiring question.
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Again (1) What are these 'colours' you say I am showing?

Again (2) A pertinent question: Can you reference a single experiment which demonstrates the existence of psychic phenomena?

Again (3) Are you sure your ignore button is working?
 
...or if you keep peeping, I suspect. Inability to offer evidence and refusal to listen to counter-argument does little to convince me that there is anything in this. At least the psychic power faithful are mostly harmless, unlike the anti-vax cretins who reason in much the same way, refuse to see the facts and, as a result, put children and others at terrible risk.
 
When i was in school, we had a Religious Education teacher who was also an RAF Padre, if you managed to manoeuvre the conversation to the Ouija board he took on a whole different attitude, basically saying never ever get involved with it as it was a dangerous item, he was also a qualified exorcist and had to on several occasions perform exorcisms because the Ouija board had been used and spirits had been released, now ive never had the inclination to use one because of the stories i have been told by friends who have used them, and they were the sort of people not to make up stories they were telling me.
 
Bluekwack said:
When i was in school, we had a Religious Education teacher who was also an RAF Padre, if you managed to manoeuvre the conversation to the Ouija board he took on a whole different attitude, basically saying never ever get involved with it as it was a dangerous item, he was also a qualified exorcist and had to on several occasions perform exorcisms because the Ouija board had been used and spirits had been released, now ive never had the inclination to use one because of the stories i have been told by friends who have used them, and they were the sort of people not to make up stories they were telling me.
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I'm sorry, your evidence is pointless. ;)
 
I'm an empiricist and there has never been any hard scientific evidence of 'supernatural' phenomena, so I am a skeptic.

I'm also open-minded, there are all sorts of possibilities opened up in the fields of advanced physics regarding dimensions beyond the ones we exist in and can perceive....and we have really no clue how 'consciousness' comes about yet.
 
mid_gen said:
I'm an empiricist and there has never been any hard scientific evidence of 'supernatural' phenomena, so I am a skeptic.

I'm also open-minded, there are all sorts of possibilities opened up in the fields of advanced physics regarding dimensions beyond the ones we exist in and can perceive....and we have really no clue how 'consciousness' comes about yet.
Click to expand...

That is almost exactly where I stand right now.
 
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