What do you make of this then?

I wouldn't say i'm a believer but you wouldn't catch me doing a ouija board.
 
joescrivens said:
its no more derogatory than what you have been doing in the thread dean, but you seem completely blinkered to seeing it.

No doubt your reply will include me somehow "missing the point" or me having a need to "go back and read the thread"

But I actually suggest you do that to enable you to see how dismissive and derogatory you yourself are being. :shrug:
Click to expand...

Seriously, if I've overstepped the mark I apologise.
 
The vast majority of mediums, psychics and such like are pure frauds. Derren's brown achieves exactly what they claim to do without any need of psychic anything.

Everything we see, hear, taste, smell and touch is a product of our brain. Nothing is what it seems and is tempered by beliefs. You only have to look at the experiment with the dancing gorilla on the basket ball game to see how people can miss what they don't expect to see. Seeing what isn't there and making patterns, shapes and in particular faces is how our perception system has evolved.

Flash reflections are not orbs. I have the same phenomena on photos taking during falling snow.

Why do most haunted program's only go there in the dark? If there were true spiritual presences there is no reason to think they'd only be felt after dark.

James randi's million dollars for any proof of psychic phenomena under controlled conditions still hasn't been claimed.
 
Randi's prize is a publicity stunt and nothing else.
 
But despite that I agree that most mediums etc are probably frauds. I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that the vast majority are because I've never met or tested them.

Most Haunted, as stated before, is pure entertainment and has nothing to do with real parapsychology.

I agree completely that the world we experience is our brain programs in operation and that is why this is so interesting to me. History of science has taught us that science can find the answers to the unknown, but only when both quantum leaps in inspiration and the correct equipment is available to measure events.
 
I was really hoping - but NOT expecting - that this thread might turn into something really interesting. A subject that I find very fascinating.

Why can't those of us that are genuinely interested in the OP continue to participate in the thread, and those that just want to argue and fight go find another forum somewhere?
Or low and behold, maybe even IGNORE the thread :eek:

For once, just once please, forget about the disagreements, leave the thread for us that are really interested in the topic.

TP has become nothing but a boxing ring lately. Now you know why I rarely visit the place.....
 
andy_fozzy said:
I was really hoping - but NOT expecting - that this thread might turn into something really interesting. A subject that I find very fascinating.

Why can't those of us that are genuinely interested in the OP continue to participate in the thread, and those that just want to argue and fight go find another forum somewhere?
Or low and behold, maybe even IGNORE the thread :eek:

For once, just once please, forget about the disagreements, leave the thread for us that are really interested in the topic.

TP has become nothing but a boxing ring lately. Now you know why I rarely visit the place.....
Click to expand...

Here, here.
 
andy_fozzy said:
I was really hoping - but NOT expecting - that this thread might turn into something really interesting. A subject that I find very fascinating.

Why can't those of us that are genuinely interested in the OP continue to participate in the thread, and those that just want to argue and fight go find another forum somewhere?
Or low and behold, maybe even IGNORE the thread :eek:

For once, just once please, forget about the disagreements, leave the thread for us that are really interested in the topic.

TP has become nothing but a boxing ring lately. Now you know why I rarely visit the place.....
Click to expand...

:thinking:
Umm, maybe if it said "Those that believe in ghosts and all that..." instead of "What do you make of this then?" and "I am NOT open to any interpretation but my own" rather than "I am open to all interpretations", you might have a point.
But it didn't.
Feel free to make a thread with such statements.
 
joesmith said:
:thinking:
Umm, maybe if it said "Those that believe in ghosts and all that..." instead of "What do you make of this then?" and "I am NOT open to any interpretation but my own" rather than "I am open to all interpretations", you might have a point.
But it didn't.
Feel free to make a thread with such statements.
Click to expand...

Joe, I've never said I believe in ghosts and being open to interpretation doesn't then mean I have to agree especially when people are dismissive and don't actually read what is written. Anyway, perhaps you'll be so good as to close the door on your way out.
 
andy_fozzy said:
I was really hoping - but NOT expecting - that this thread might turn into something really interesting. A subject that I find very fascinating.

Why can't those of us that are genuinely interested in the OP continue to participate in the thread, and those that just want to argue and fight go find another forum somewhere?
Or low and behold, maybe even IGNORE the thread :eek:

For once, just once please, forget about the disagreements, leave the thread for us that are really interested in the topic.

TP has become nothing but a boxing ring lately. Now you know why I rarely visit the place.....
Click to expand...

If you want a thread to be treated as a "share your stories of the supernatural here" type then by all means create one and I for one won't contribute. As it is, this thread invited discussion and challenge, which is why I chose to chip in with my opinion. Hopefully this was done so respectfully and added to the thread.

By all means share what you found interesting, as well :)
 
Jamie, you were indeed respectful and rightly pulled me up when I got a little finger wagging.
 
TriggerHappy said:
If you want a thread to be treated as a "share your stories of the supernatural here" type then by all means create one and I for one won't contribute. As it is, this thread invited discussion and challenge, which is why I chose to chip in with my opinion. Hopefully this was done so respectfully and added to the thread.

By all means share what you found interesting, as well :)
Click to expand...

Ok......
 
New thread created.

Please anyone who has a story to tell take a look......
 
kelack said:
The thing is, it's the way it's said by the people who don't. I don't believe as all the experiences I had boiled down to someone moving the glass etc but I'm not going to shoot the believers down. If people want to voice their non belief then do but I don't think there's a need to ridicule anyone at all.

I'm still quite open minded and would like to see it one day.
Click to expand...

Hey I'm not shooting anyone down, people can believe what they want. I expressed my opinion about these things and then was told I was burying my head, seemed a bit off in my opinion.
 
Last edited:
Agree with Jamie and Neil

Also nobody has yet offered an opinion to my question from earlier (a believer at least)
 
Can anyone explain why it is that no properly conducted investigation into psychic phenomena has shown a positive, replicable result? Never. Not one. In the whole of history.

Or if I'm wrong, please link to the study.
 
neil_g said:
Hey I'm not shooting anyone down, people can believe what they want. I expressed my opinion about these things and then was told I was burying my head, seemed a bit off in my opinion.
Click to expand...

I apologise again.
 
jon ryan said:
Can anyone explain why it is that no properly conducted investigation into psychic phenomena has shown a positive, replicable result? Never. Not one. In the whole of history.

Or if I'm wrong, please link to the study.
Click to expand...

Dean Radin.
 
As soon as I'm back at my PC, Jon. Also one needs to bear in mind that no results does not mean there is nothing happening. As mentioned earlier that could be down to not having the correct procedures and/or instruments.
 
joescrivens said:
Also nobody has yet offered an opinion to my question from earlier (a believer at least)
Click to expand...

The writing; didn't Dean suggest Psychokinesis?
When these spirits move things, they are usually reported to have done so in an uncontrolled manner. Maybe by using a living participant, the spirit channels its energy via the brain to gain control of something. Or something :suspect:
 
The23rdman said:
As soon as I'm back at my PC, Jon. Also one needs to bear in mind that no results does not mean there is nothing happening. As mentioned earlier that could be down to not having the correct procedures and/or instruments.
Click to expand...

Or, perhaps, results. If psychic powers/phenomena exist, then there have to be measurable results. That's axiomatic.

Earlier, you say:
Randi's prize is a publicity stunt and nothing else.
Click to expand...
(post #84)

James Randi has offered a million dollars to anyone - that's anyone - who can demonstrate, in a properly conducted experiment, some form of psychic power. Why do you think no-one has claimed the prize?
 
Will respond when back at PC. Quoting is a pain on my phone.
 
A lot of supernatural experiences such as the heavy weight on the chest and imagined intruders are down to sleep chemicals. Richard wiseman's book about the paranormal is an excellent read on this and other paranormal phenomena most of which have entirely rational scientific explanations. I've read it which is why my feet are in the non believer camp.

Those experiences outside the rational are more interesting but incredibly rare. I've not really experienced any apart from having dreams that happen and lots of déjà vu. There will be a rational and boring reason for it, which is a shame. It would be more fun to think it was a way into the future or a secret psychic ability but its probably just cheese.

Supposedly my old house was haunted by a child that used to live there. There was often a door banging noise that happened in the wee small hours where there was no door. I assumed it was one of next door banging around. They claimed it wasn't them. It was also built on the site of an old church. It was just movement due to heating and cooling and the fact of being near mine workings. Seems far more rational than believing in dead spirits. I lived there for 8 years and nothing of note happened. A lot of the paranormal is just suggestion. You tell stories to people about what to expect and bingo. Works just like the placebo effect.

You need to take people out of it. If ghosts are visible/perceivable then other equipment will be able to detect them. Electronic detectors are impartial.
 
new2me said:
The writing; didn't Dean suggest Psychokinesis?
When these spirits move things, they are usually reported to have done so in an uncontrolled manner. Maybe by using a living participant, the spirit channels its energy via the brain to gain control of something. Or something :suspect:
Click to expand...

Psycho kinesis is psycho babble for ideomotor movement ie subconsciously driven movement. That's how the oujia or table tipping works. No spirits are needed. It's a natural human behaviour.
 
srichards said:
A lot of supernatural experiences such as the heavy weight on the chest and imagined intruders are down to sleep chemicals.
Click to expand...
I went through periods of that myself and it's quite freaky! Read some stuff and saw a documentary about 10 years ago showing examples of it in old books.
 
jon ryan said:
Or, perhaps, results. If psychic powers/phenomena exist, then there have to be measurable results. That's axiomatic.

Electricity existed before we could measure it.

Earlier, you say: (post #84)

James Randi has offered a million dollars to anyone - that's anyone - who can demonstrate, in a properly conducted experiment, some form of psychic power. Why do you think no-one has claimed the prize?
Click to expand...

His challenge is ambiguous in many ways that doesn't appear scientific, but instead subjective. His initial test is designed to be unpassable. Here's one interesting article on it.
 
srichards said:
A lot of supernatural experiences such as the heavy weight on the chest and imagined intruders are down to sleep chemicals. Richard wiseman's book about the paranormal is an excellent read on this and other paranormal phenomena most of which have entirely rational scientific explanations. I've read it which is why my feet are in the non believer camp.

I agree. Whilst training to lucid dream I experienced some crazy sleep paralysis oddities.

Those experiences outside the rational are more interesting but incredibly rare. I've not really experienced any apart from having dreams that happen and lots of déjà vu. There will be a rational and boring reason for it, which is a shame. It would be more fun to think it was a way into the future or a secret psychic ability but its probably just cheese.

The only dream experience that I've had that is odd is dreaming of an old friend having a car crash. I felt so strongly it was real that I rang him our of the blue to find he had crashed his car the previous night. Freaked us both out. This happened whilst I was lucid dream training, but I have no idea if it was connected.

Supposedly my old house was haunted by a child that used to live there. There was often a door banging noise that happened in the wee small hours where there was no door. I assumed it was one of next door banging around. They claimed it wasn't them. It was also built on the site of an old church. It was just movement due to heating and cooling and the fact of being near mine workings. Seems far more rational than believing in dead spirits. I lived there for 8 years and nothing of note happened. A lot of the paranormal is just suggestion. You tell stories to people about what to expect and bingo. Works just like the placebo effect.

Yes, I agree that much of what goes for the paranormal is suggestion and self-hypnosis. That, however, does not mean it all is, and that is the leap too many take.

You need to take people out of it. If ghosts are visible/perceivable then other equipment will be able to detect them. Electronic detectors are impartial.

Again, not detecting anything does not mean it is not there. If your radio is stuck on 89.2 (or whatever) you will swear blind there is no radio one.
Click to expand...
 
srichards said:
Psycho kinesis is psycho babble for ideomotor movement ie subconsciously driven movement. That's how the oujia or table tipping works. No spirits are needed. It's a natural human behaviour.
Click to expand...

That's a bit sweeping. I've seen people move things without having any physical contact. I've also seen someone do something remarkable I cannot explain away.
 
srichards said:
Please elaborate :)
Click to expand...

I'm not sure I can. I don't want to appear to be hiding owt, I just don't think I feel I can talk about it.

I will share another experience here for discussion rather than the other thread though. Again, as soon as I'm back at the PC.
 
The23rdman said:
Here you go, Jon.
Click to expand...

A publication in the Journal of Scientific Exploration hardly ranks as top-line research. They have published topics with the subject of "Analysis of a UFO Photograph", "UFOs and NASA", "Three New Cases of Reincarnation Types in Sri Lanka With Written Records","Case of Possession Type in India With Evidence of Paranormal Knowledge" and is not among the 11,000+ journal titles listed in the Web of Science.(full list here).

Dean Radin was originally a professional violinist and as far as I can tell he has no publications in recognised journals.

What other studies do you have?
 
The23rdman said:
His challenge is ambiguous in many ways that doesn't appear scientific, but instead subjective. His initial test is designed to be unpassable. Here's one interesting article on it.
Click to expand...

The reason that so many challengers are turned down for the full test is that the fail at the first hurdle, where " the applicant will be asked to perform a relatively simple preliminary test of the claim" (here). There is no limit to the number of times an applicant may apply. A huge number of people have tried to win the million. No-one has.

Or do you think that Randi is suppressing results or preventing people with psychic ability from entering?
 
jon ryan said:
The reason that so many challengers are turned down for the full test is that the fail at the first hurdle, where " the applicant will be asked to perform a relatively simple preliminary test of the claim" (here). There is no limit to the number of times an applicant may apply. A huge number of people have tried to win the million. No-one has.

Or do you think that Randi is suppressing results or preventing people with psychic ability from entering?
Click to expand...

No, I think he changes the goal posts or makes the challenge almost impossible.
 
I'm still on my phone, but now with 2% battery. I'll post some links tomorrow, Jon.
 
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