What brand studio lighting kit? Decision Made!

When I drove a Chimaera then wet grip and stiff sidewalls was everything and I used SO2s
My favourite ever tyre, I love S02s.

Re triggering: I generally use RF602s. Pretty reliable and cheap enough if you buy a pack that you have spare receivers. Usually I use one receiver and everything else on slaves but at the first hint of trouble I can whack extra receivers in. I don't like mains powered receivers because they are useless on battery powered lights.
Off topic but you started it :) I'm using slaves, but I want to start using receivers on all my lights, partly so I can use groups and switch lights on and off from the camera, and partly because one on my light positions doesn't suit being slave operated.

But I would rather have mains powered receivers, and then separate receivers for use when using battery lights. That way I don't need to worry about loads of batteries in the studio. But I'm not sure of any mains powered receivers that work in groups?
 
But I'm not sure of any mains powered receivers that work in groups?

Depends what you mean by that....

If you mean one trigger fires both group "1" and group "2" at once (so you can effectively turn lights no/off from camera position) then no, I don't think there's anything that does that. You could do something like that with Einchrom's wifi system but it's pretty pricey and battery operated.

If you mean one trigger fires group "1" and another fires group "2" (or the same trigger fires both AT DIFFERENT TIMES depending on a switch) then yes, I'm pretty sure all easily available mains triggers can do that.
 
i use the elemental genesis mk2 3 head kit, 2x200w and a 400w head, never had any probs with it and works flawlesly, must admit i use an lencarta reflective brolly and its a nice bit ok kit.

Andy
 
Well with all the info I am now considering buying one elitepro which I could use with my existing triggers and flashes (giving me 3 lights) then slowly buying another 2 heads. Might be a more sensible longer term option but still also considering other brands too!
 
Hi there,

I am a bit new to the forum and this post so sorry for my lateness, dont know if this helps but there is a light from cotswolds photo that I have and use in my studio, I did a video review of it a few months back - the light is still in use and I still love it

If you have 30 minutes to kill watch this and make your own mind up

http://vimeo.com/23901898
 
couple of points, Anyone who wishes to advertise here is considered, we havent had anyone else want to advertise lighting here, the terms of the agreement between Lencarta, Photolearn and us are private, but the banner and a thread are what they pay for, we have removed the occasional post or thread that have been started that have fallen outside this agreement.

I will clean this thread up shortly, Garry I would appreciate if you didnt unnecessarily antagonise people, especially those with trigger happy lawyer fingers.
 
So, to help me (and others) I compiled a table of similar powered studio lights. The boxes in green are simply the unit that provides the best feature in the bracket. The score, is the number of green boxes for the unit out of the total. The one in red is the one on paper that is seemingly the best, however...

Flash_Comparison.jpg


The Lencarta wins hands down on value for money. Also, although it doesn't have auto dump Garry has explained why this is not necessarily a benefit and a simple technique (popping a test flash)provides a quick and effective solution. To note some of the other units have more power, but the modelling lights are weaker. For me starting out with studio I think having similar power modelling lights and flash power is a good thing, also I dont think I will notice a huge difference between the 300w and 400w in the home portrait/nursery environment.

Quick question for Garry - if you read this. Rather than a soft bag, I was considering getting a cheap hard/aluminium case with foam insert suitable to fit 3 heads in etc (obviously not the stands) I wondered if you could suggest a suitable set of dimensions for a case to put them in? Also can you confirm the stands are 1m collapsed? Thanks.
 
The Lencarta wins hands down on value for money.
What stands out in that comparison is that Lencarta are doing a good price on individual heads. When comparing a kit, they're not really any cheaper than Elemental (not sure about the others). For example, a 2 head Lencarta kit costs £400, a 2 head Elemental kit costs £529, and for that extra £129 you get the better air damped stands (minimum £30 difference), a softbox & umbrella vs 2 umbrellas (say an extra £40 worth), and a radio trigger system (£40 for a Lencarta set), plus an decent case. Depending on whether you want those extra bits, it might mean there's roughly nothing in it price wise.

Like you say, the auto dump probably doesn't matter as you can get used to doing it yourself (as long as you do).

To note some of the other units have more power, but the modelling lights are weaker. For me starting out with studio I think having similar power modelling lights and flash power is a good thing
No, it won't help. Similar wattages doesn't mean the flash output will suddenly be similar to the modelling light you were looking at. Also, the power of a unit is more important (expensive) than the power of the modelling light. Regarding the modelling lights, I also like the ability to have the modelling light adjust with the selected flash power (should you want it), which the Elementals do (not a deal breaker, but I use it).

also I dont think I will notice a huge difference between the 300w and 400w in the home portrait/nursery environment.
You could well be right, if your space is limited. However, if you're shooting with ISO100 (as opposed to base 200 on some models) in a decent size space, more power helps.

And if one (as I assume you're wanting Lencarta) was after 3 heads, the extra head from elemental is only £171 extra, including an air cushioned stand and another brolly.
 
So, to help me (and others) I compiled a table of similar powered studio lights. The boxes in green are simply the unit that provides the best feature in the bracket. The score, is the number of green boxes for the unit out of the total. The one in red is the one on paper that is seemingly the best, however...

Flash_Comparison.jpg


The Lencarta wins hands down on value for money. Also, although it doesn't have auto dump Garry has explained why this is not necessarily a benefit and a simple technique (popping a test flash)provides a quick and effective solution. To note some of the other units have more power, but the modelling lights are weaker. For me starting out with studio I think having similar power modelling lights and flash power is a good thing, also I dont think I will notice a huge difference between the 300w and 400w in the home portrait/nursery environment.

Quick question for Garry - if you read this. Rather than a soft bag, I was considering getting a cheap hard/aluminium case with foam insert suitable to fit 3 heads in etc (obviously not the stands) I wondered if you could suggest a suitable set of dimensions for a case to put them in? Also can you confirm the stands are 1m collapsed? Thanks.



Maybe my maths is wrong, but I just went on the Lencarta site and 'bought'

3 x Elite Pro 300 heads
3 x Stands (BASIC, no air damping)
2 x brollies
1 x 60 cm softbox
1 x Bag for heads (You can add your own padding!!! WTF?)
1 x Bag for tripods
1 x Radio trigger

Total £701.95

Lastolite
3 x 400w heads (with variable modelling power - lamps can be 175w, do you need any hotter in a small studio? Auto dump)
3 x Air Damped stands
2 x brollies
1 x 60cm softbox
3 x Padded holdalls
1 x radio trigger

£599.00

I guess 'hands down value' is subjective! :D
 
Last edited:
There's a review of five different studio heads in the current edition (December dated) of Advanced Photographer magazine - Elinchrom D-Lites, Interfit, Lastolite, Proline and Westcott. In the following month's edition, there's Lencarta, Elinchrom BX-Ri, Profoto, Broncolor and Bowens.

There are direct comparisons of the actual light output, range of power, consistency of output and colour shift, flash durations, modelling lamp brightness and range, amongst other things.

Even if I say so myself ;) the tests are quite revealing.
 
DEANSUPREME said:
If you keep an eye out Calumet might do a deal like they did a while back on the Bowens 400/400 Kit @ £439 which I snapped up at that price.

Well one can hope! I have seen one Xmas kit out and I know Lastolite are going a deal too....

Trigaaar, thanks for the input I am not specifically wanting Lencarta, my requirements are simply to get best value for money but also something that is up to the job. Also cheers re the info about modelling lights power.

Si, thanks also, trying to compare kits is a nightmare which is why I concentrated on the heads themselves so if I see a good value kit I know what I am getting perhaps including the price in that table was a bit of an error!

Hoppy, Thanks for the info about the reviews will take a look they could be handy!

For me I don't want to rule out the Lastolite on no fan cooling but it concerns me if I was going to shoot 400 kids portraits at a school so I am trying to get in touch with one of their pro togs for some advice about that...
 
Last edited by a moderator:
So, to help me (and others) I compiled a table of similar powered studio lights. The boxes in green are simply the unit that provides the best feature in the bracket. The score, is the number of green boxes for the unit out of the total. The one in red is the one on paper that is seemingly the best, however...

Flash_Comparison.jpg


The Lencarta wins hands down on value for money. Also, although it doesn't have auto dump Garry has explained why this is not necessarily a benefit and a simple technique (popping a test flash)provides a quick and effective solution. To note some of the other units have more power, but the modelling lights are weaker. For me starting out with studio I think having similar power modelling lights and flash power is a good thing, also I dont think I will notice a huge difference between the 300w and 400w in the home portrait/nursery environment.

Quick question for Garry - if you read this. Rather than a soft bag, I was considering getting a cheap hard/aluminium case with foam insert suitable to fit 3 heads in etc (obviously not the stands) I wondered if you could suggest a suitable set of dimensions for a case to put them in? Also can you confirm the stands are 1m collapsed? Thanks.
Well, the ElitePro 300's are about 430mm x 210mm total (without reflector but with head cap). I say 'about' because I've just measured one in my studio with a tape measure, it will be pretty close.

The spring damped stands are 93cm long when collapsed for storage and the air damped ones are 104cm.

As for power, the real world difference between 300 and 400Ws is insignificant. Watt-seconds (or joules) is just the amount of energy stored in the capacitors, and it's very possible that a 300Ws head of one make may deliver more power than a 400 Ws head of another make. And anyway, it's all very much dependent on the modifier fittted. For example, the Bowens standard reflector is highly efficient and delivers a lot more power than the Lencarta one - but the Bowens one has a mirror-like surface and so produces a much harder light than the Lencarta one, which has a much softer surface. Now, if you want a Lencarta flash head you can fit a Bowens reflector to it and vice versa and so can get a meaningful comparison - but you can't do that with say Elinchrom, who use a different fitting
There's a review of five different studio heads in the current edition (December dated) of Advanced Photographer magazine - Elinchrom D-Lites, Interfit, Lastolite, Proline and Westcott. In the following month's edition, there's Lencarta, Elinchrom BX-Ri, Profoto, Broncolor and Bowens.

There are direct comparisons of the actual light output, range of power, consistency of output and colour shift, flash durations, modelling lamp brightness and range, amongst other things.

Even if I say so myself the tests are quite revealing.
Many magazine reviews are, frankly, unhelpful to buyers. From my own experience, many of the reviewers know less than many of the readers, and often the 'best' product is the one with the perceived best value for money (lots of features and low price) with actual performance either not understood or ignored.
But Advanced Photographer seems to be setting a new standard, with thorough tests and detailed info that can only help both readers and the better companies. I say this based on what I've seen in there so far, and because I know who is doing the reviews for them. I don't have any idea how well Lencarta is going to do in these reviews, but I'm confident that the products won't disgrace themselves:)
What stands out in that comparison is that Lencarta are doing a good price on individual heads. When comparing a kit, they're not really any cheaper than Elemental (not sure about the others). For example, a 2 head Lencarta kit costs £400, a 2 head Elemental kit costs £529, and for that extra £129 you get the better air damped stands (minimum £30 difference), a softbox & umbrella vs 2 umbrellas (say an extra £40 worth), and a radio trigger system (£40 for a Lencarta set), plus an decent case. Depending on whether you want those extra bits, it might mean there's roughly nothing in it price wise.

Like you say, the auto dump probably doesn't matter as you can get used to doing it yourself (as long as you do).
Fair comment. Lencarta's approach is to sell basic kits with no frills, and the main reason for that is that a very large percentage of customers are pro photographers who already have the 'extras' that are often bundled in other kits. Once the new website has replaced the existing one the 'kit' builder' will come back to life (we're looking at the end of Jan here) and people will have the option of jiggling with kit contents when they order, but they will still start off with a basic kit that they can add to if they want to, but they won't be forced to.

When you compare bundled accessories you really need to compare the quality with other brands, which can be difficult. An included bag may drop to bits after a week, an air damped stand that takes so long to reduce in height that you can drink a cuppa while you wait isn't a lot of use, nor is a stand that is so wobbly at high settings that it's downright dangerous - I'm not commenting on other brands, but I do know that the Lencarta stands are very strongly made, they're rigid at any height and that they provide the right amount of damping to do the job without slowing the picture-taking process up too much.

And speaking of stands, the low-priced Lencarta spring damped stands are fine for amateur use, because most amateur photographers are careful people who look after their gear and who will always support the weight of the head when they lower the stand - and anyway, the spring damping is a massive improvement over no damping at all. Pro photographers who employ assistants are more likely to benefit from air damping, because lighting assistants have been known to be... a little less careful:'(

So, is any one of those options a better choice for the OP? Frankly I feel that although I personally would dismiss some of those options, there are some there which, although different to each other, are safe choices.
 
Trigaaar, thanks for the input I am not specifically wanting Lencarta, my requirements are simply to get best value for money but also something that is up to the job.
Oh ok, I thought you were posting your findings mainly for others that will go through the same decisions, and so I made my post in the same vein. What I'd suggest is that you wait until you know what actual kit you want (number of heads, power of each, all modifiers you're after etc) and then price that up with each brand.

Also cheers re the info about modelling lights power.
You're welcome. I have both 150W and 250W modelling lights, I either use them to provide light in a dark studio or show me the direction of the light with my modifier, I don't really care which buld is in each unit (I just select bright [full power], dimmed or off).

For me I don't want to rule out the Lastolite on no fan cooling but it concerns me if I was going to shoot 400 kids portraits at a school so I am trying to get in touch with one of their pro togs for some advice about that...
Ask some of the school togs here what they use and how much power they use from their lights. When doing the group photos I imagine you may want more power.

As for power, the real world difference between 300 and 400Ws is insignificant. Watt-seconds (or joules) is just the amount of energy stored in the capacitors, and it's very possible that a 300Ws head of one make may deliver more power than a 400 Ws head of another make.
Maybe someone here with different units could do test for us.
And anyway, it's all very much dependent on the modifier fittted. For example, the Bowens standard reflector is highly efficient and delivers a lot more power than the Lencarta one
Yes, but with the lights he's choosing from he could very well have modifiers from other brands anyway - for example, I have a few makes of softbox, including Lencarta.
Many magazine reviews are, frankly, unhelpful to buyers. From my own experience, many of the reviewers know less than many of the readers, and often the 'best' product is the one with the perceived best value for money (lots of features and low price) with actual performance either not understood or ignored.
And magazines also get their money from sponsers that they don't want to upset. But it's still useful to read the reviews to find out if there's anything you can take from them. Don't just see which light they recommend, find out what you can learn about each brand to help you make your own decision.

I don't have any idea how well Lencarta is going to do in these reviews, but I'm confident that the products won't disgrace themselves:)
Isn't the review out already?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garry Edwards
As for power, the real world difference between 300 and 400Ws is insignificant. Watt-seconds (or joules) is just the amount of energy stored in the capacitors, and it's very possible that a 300Ws head of one make may deliver more power than a 400 Ws head of another make.

Maybe someone here with different units could do test for us.
Not really, because as I mentioned, it isn't possible to put a Bowens (for example) standard reflector onto an Elinchrom head, or vice versa. The only true test would be for the same person to test the various heads in the same environment using the same flash meter, and with no reflector fitted - but that would then become academic because they aren't normally used with nothing fitted to the head.
Quote:
I don't have any idea how well Lencarta is going to do in these reviews, but I'm confident that the products won't disgrace themselves
Quote:
Isn't the review out already?
I think that the first one in this 2 part series may be just out, but I haven't seen it - must see if I can blag a copy, it's a good mag. And anyway, the issue that includes Lencarta won't be out for another month or so, I think that it's the cheaper heads in the current issue - Lencarta is being compared against the likes of Profoto and Bron...
 
Maybe my maths is wrong, but I just went on the Lencarta site and 'bought'

3 x Elite Pro 300 heads
3 x Stands (BASIC, no air damping)
2 x brollies
1 x 60 cm softbox
1 x Bag for heads (You can add your own padding!!! WTF?)
1 x Bag for tripods
1 x Radio trigger

Total £701.95

Lastolite
3 x 400w heads (with variable modelling power - lamps can be 175w, do you need any hotter in a small studio? Auto dump)
3 x Air Damped stands
2 x brollies
1 x 60cm softbox
3 x Padded holdalls
1 x radio trigger

£599.00

I guess 'hands down value' is subjective! :D
Whilst that may well be true for a kit - look at the price of the flash head unit itself. Lastolites are £250 ish for the head alone. You can look at this two ways. Either you are getting incredible "value" with the kit set or the individual heads are way overpriced. If I had only bought a 2 head kit, expanding it to the third head would become relatively expensive whereas going from 2->3 heads with Lencarta is relatively less expensive. Cost is over the lifetime of the product, and needs to include where you want to go with it over time (much as some people buy into the Canon line as it has a wider range of high quality f4 lenses compared to Nikon).

I must say, I'll be interested in Richards magazine article....
 
So the review so far puts the Elinchrom D-Lite 4it Twin softbox kit in the lead with pros being power with control, pro spec and performance and cons being price. However their xmas deal which is based on the 2/4 kit but offers D-Lite 2 head, D-lite 4 head, silver umbrella, translucent umbrella, 2 reflectors, 66cm portalite softbox skyport transmitter, stands, case and a bag for just £509 seems very tempting!

Interfit EXD 400 came out with high spec and performance but low build quality.

Lastolite Lumen8 f400 came out as competent but unexceptional with good power and decent control but no fan long flash durations and noisy beeper.

Proline Apollo x-300 scored 67/100 good in parts but better options for the money, compact and lightweight but slow recycle and non standard accessory fittings.

Westcott Strobelite 150 came out poorly too everything works but lowish power and inconsistent output.

Their test seemed pretty good comparing in like for like conditions and looking at power, exposure consistency and an important one flash duration as well as colour temperature, build etc.

I just wish they had put all the kits in the test rather than spreading it over 2 issues. now I have to wait till 14th December!
 
So are next month's offerings in your budget? With the exception of Lencarta that is. A bxri kit is near on a grand, the Profoto D1's are £800 each and the Bron monolights start at £xxxx for one unit I think. That's assuming they're their mono units rather than the pack and head gear.

If they're more than you're willing to spend then it bares little relevance what the review says.

For a budget buy, you won't go wrong with Elinchrom and Bowens and their entry level offerings. Lencarta also get a wealth of good reviews from other forum members. If you're struggling to choose based on specs, then choose by modifiers. Elinchrom modifiers are amazing, brilliant in fact, they are in my opinion the biggest thing going for Elinchrom. However, if you're going to be buying cheap third party generic modifiers, then that advantage doesn't apply. The oem Eli modifiers are very expensive, on par with Profoto almost.

Or buy bowens or Lencarta for their s fit compatibility and so availability of modifiers from a large range of manufacturers.
 
Really its just between the Lencarta Elitepro 300's and the Elinchrom D-lite 4 kit or the Xmas special kit. Budget is now £500 for a twin head kit. I am really stuck, I just thought that review might help but thinking about it it could well be reviewing the 600's...

I have just found this - apparently you get a free radio trigger and reciever kit with all lencarta kits which might be handy as the elinchrom includes skyport transmitter
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I'd really suggest you pop along to a shop and try and get a look at them, or put the purchase off until focus on imaging, you'll be able to try all the brands then.

I personally hate the elinchrome fixing method, it's much more fiddly than the S fit, I also don't like the noise of the cooling fans on the d lite 4's, I have 4 bowens 500 heads and none of them have overheating issues. I've done a full day in a studio today with all 4 lights, the modelling lights were set to proportional and they were on for the best part of 9 hours and did christ knows how many pops.

So, don't be so quick to discount a feature on your chart :) Have a play with them all and let real experience guide you.
 
Not really, because as I mentioned, it isn't possible to put a Bowens (for example) standard reflector onto an Elinchrom head, or vice versa. The only true test would be for the same person to test the various heads in the same environment using the same flash meter, and with no reflector fitted - but that would then become academic because they aren't normally used with nothing fitted to the head.
But we're not specifically talking about Elinchrom. Our example was Lencarta and Elemental 300W and 400W heads. I wouldn't be surprised if someone here had access to both, and could test with the same midifier (eg, softbox) and meter.
 
Brian, thanks - as you already know I pm'd you so thanks for that too!

Update on the review - spoken with Will Cheung the editor of Advanced Photographer via email. The December review will not be for entry level kit but for more expensive products so if Entry level is your bag - go get this months edition. Good magazine too, first time I have read it and really enjoying it (got mine in Tesco!)
 
But we're not specifically talking about Elinchrom. Our example was Lencarta and Elemental 300W and 400W heads. I wouldn't be surprised if someone here had access to both, and could test with the same midifier (eg, softbox) and meter.

You'd really think that would be possible, wouldn't you?

But what if the tube "takes advantage of the unique characteristics of modifiers designed for it". I.e. an x-brand light performs better with x-brand modifiers. This could be due to the shape or placement of the tube WRT the mount.

But if you're interested, call up Elemental and ask if you can borrow one of their test kits to compare against other brands. I think I know what their answer will be.
 
Originally Posted by Garry Edwards
Not really, because as I mentioned, it isn't possible to put a Bowens (for example) standard reflector onto an Elinchrom head, or vice versa. The only true test would be for the same person to test the various heads in the same environment using the same flash meter, and with no reflector fitted - but that would then become academic because they aren't normally used with nothing fitted to the head.
But we're not specifically talking about Elinchrom. Our example was Lencarta and Elemental 300W and 400W heads. I wouldn't be surprised if someone here had access to both, and could test with the same midifier (eg, softbox) and meter.
I've already carried out these tests (bare head) will nearly all the popular flash heads.

The point I was trying to make is that if you buy a flash head of any given power rating, that power rating doesn't give any kind of reliable guide to how much actual power will be delivered, for a number of reasons, and especially because some standard reflectors produce hard lighting that amplifies the power of the flash and others produce softer lighting that delivers less power - so unless you are going to use the same (say) standard reflector to the head regardless of the make (which isn't possible) then the stated watt-second rating is nothing more than a very rough guide...

I don't like to talk about specific brands because someone, somewhere always thinks I'm trying to promote Lencarta but I will mention one example, because it's now dead.

Some years ago I tested a 2400 Ws Strobex generator flash, with it's rather clumsy high voltage systems and white-painted reflector and was surprised at the low output. Let's say that it produced f/8 under test conditions.
I then tested a popular 600Ws flash from a well known manufacturer under the same conditions and got almost the same measured power. The Strobex should have measured 4x as much power
 
Don't look at the numbers, look at the application...The power issue is a red herring

Most of the time, in a smallish studio, right through to a fairly largish room, you will still be turning a 200/300/400w/s head down to 1/4 power to perform most tasks with most modifiers

Its a bit like car engines - in a 30 limit, you do 30, regardless of your engine size, it is rare that engine size makes a substantial difference to a car journey (once you get past the very small engines)

What's more important to most people is
- consistency
- quality on the lower settings
- cost & availibility of the modifiers
- build quality of ALL of the parts of the kit (a brilliant light on a crappy stand is a pain)

What's important to some people is
- flash duration

And its when you look at flash duration, you end up considering the more expensive higher power flashes, and their performance when turned down


To put all this into perspective, I have lit marquees at night, with 200 people in them, measuring about 80 x 40M with three or four 200/400 w/s heads, and in the main they dont go over 1/4 power - and with this, I can achieve a "generally brighter than in the daytime" result (and a lot crisper)

For a unmentioned alternative mid-range head look at the very interesting Paul Buff Einstein 640w/s head - seemingly it is excellent on low power and with a very short flash duration. (shame about the mount)
 
But if you're interested, call up Elemental and ask if you can borrow one of their test kits to compare against other brands. I think I know what their answer will be.
Well I've already got Elemental heads. So, Lencarta representatives, could you send me a test head to compare please?

The point I was trying to make is that if you buy a flash head of any given power rating, that power rating doesn't give any kind of reliable guide to how much actual power will be delivered
I know that's what you're saying, and I can believe you that the figures aren't always accurate. However I would hope they aren't that far out? Otherwise what's the point for us all, how are we supposed to make our choices.

for a number of reasons, and especially because some standard reflectors produce hard lighting that amplifies the power of the flash and others produce softer lighting that delivers less power
Yes you already said that in your bowens example above. But how often are studio togs using those standard reflectors at maximum power? I think we can ignore standard reflectors for a moment, and think about brollies and softboxes that we're using all the time, and it's easy to compare.

so unless you are going to use the same (say) standard reflector to the head regardless of the make (which isn't possible)
When choosing between S fit brands that's entirely possible, and likely. Some people here will buy modifiers from someone like Bessel to fit on their S fit lights, so it's quite straightforward to see how comparible these heads are. Lencarta charge an extra £60 to go from 300W to 600W, so when paying for the upgrade we'd hope it actually means something in the real world (which I'm sure it does).

I don't like to talk about specific brands because someone, somewhere always thinks I'm trying to promote Lencarta
Someone, somewhere? We all think you promote Lencarta. You run the Lencarta stand at Focus (at least you were when I was there). I've chatted with you at the Lencarta stand at Focus. And when I've phoned Lencarta to talk about products and order stuff, it's you I've spoken to. It would be weird if you weren't promoting Lencarta. You're not here just chatting in your time off are you.
 
Anybody ever think, it's what you do with your lights that counts....and not what brand you use.

Been there and done it. Own bron, owned Eli, owned Lencarta. I'm downsizing now that I shoot slowly, spec sheets can do one, as long as it stays in one piece and I use it properly, nobody actually gives a toss what flash head was used.

Ip, dip, dog, ****....I chose THIS flash. Do that and you won't go wrong.

Bored.
 
Last edited:
The power issue is a red herring
Perhaps you're right for some people, maybe not everyone needs the power. I do use it for some bounced light though.
What's more important to most people is
- consistency
- quality on the lower settings
- cost & availibility of the modifiers
- build quality of ALL of the parts of the kit (a brilliant light on a crappy stand is a pain)

What's important to some people is
- flash duration
I agree with all that. You try and find a brand/model that gives you all those things, and then you choose from their range depending on how much power you need.

To put all this into perspective, I have lit marquees at night, with 200 people in them, measuring about 80 x 40M with three or four 200/400 w/s heads, and in the main they dont go over 1/4 power - and with this, I can achieve a "generally brighter than in the daytime" result (and a lot crisper)
Sounds good, can you post a picture from one of these examples?
 
Anybody ever think, it's what you do with your lights that counts....and not what brand you use.
...
Ip, dip, dog, ****....I chose THIS flash. Do that and you won't go wrong.

Bored.
:lol:

Of course it's what you do with it. The same goes for camera brands, but that doesn't mean we won't all discuss the pros and cons of each.
 
I know that's what you're saying, and I can believe you that the figures aren't always accurate. However I would hope they aren't that far out? Otherwise what's the point for us all, how are we supposed to make our choices.
That's the whole point, and the point that I KEEP trying to make - choices should be made on all sorts of factors, the amount of energy stored in the capacitors is really fairly unimportant.
Yes you already said that in your bowens example above. But how often are studio togs using those standard reflectors at maximum power? I think we can ignore standard reflectors for a moment, and think about brollies and softboxes that we're using all the time, and it's easy to compare.
That was just an example, it doesn't matter which modifier you fit for comparison, my point is that the only true test is to fit the same modifier onto every flash head for comparison purposes, and that isn't always possible. That leaves us with the only other true test, a test with nothing fitted to the head - but the results, although accurate, aren't practicable.
Lencarta charge an extra £60 to go from 300W to 600W, so when paying for the upgrade we'd hope it actually means something in the real world (which I'm sure it does).
Yes, it means double the power of it's smaller brother, so with the same modifiers fitted you'll get 1 stop more light.
Someone, somewhere? We all think you promote Lencarta. You run the Lencarta stand at Focus (at least you were when I was there). I've chatted with you at the Lencarta stand at Focus. And when I've phoned Lencarta to talk about products and order stuff, it's you I've spoken to. It would be weird if you weren't promoting Lencarta. You're not here just chatting in your time off are you.
There you go again:(
I don't run the Lencarta stand at Focus, I'm just one of several people who work on it. It's funny, someone complained last week when it wasn't me who answered the phone:)
The point that I was trying to put across is that someone, somewhere will always assume that I'm promoting Lencarta when all that I'm actually trying to do is to promote good lighting techniques and explain something, in the sense that here I was trying to explain why the stored energy in a flash head (of any make) isn't a reliable indicator of actual, delivered power. That's why I try to avoid naming brands - if I do, someone will think that I'm having a pop at a particular brand when in fact the brand is irrelevant.
 
Last edited:
Sounds good, can you post a picture from one of these examples?

Not a great example, this was a sectional marquee, with a flash head in each section, pointing at the roof...

42.jpg


I had 4 heads in the marquee, 2 over the dance floor band area, and 2 in the 4 sections where all the seating was. I used a standard reflector on each, and made the light bounce round the angles on the roof sections... so shot was lit in an area that was covered with basically 2 flash heads covering about 120 people. They are 300w/s heads, and were on 1/4 power. I had the two "sets" of lights on different channels, which is why there is a drop off to the rear of the shot (dance floor area) Basically with this set up, I could pretty much shoot anywhere in the marquee, with a very minimal real variation in power (hence settings change) from shot to shot. I recall I was shooting at about F5.6 Plus or minus a tiddly bit
 
Last edited:
I can't say much about the tests I have been commissioned to produce by a magazine, so for anyone that needs to know the nitty gritty, they will just have to look out a copy of Advanced Photographer mag.

The December issue just published has comparison tests of, in alphabetical order, Elinchrom D-Lite 4it, Interfit EXD400, Lastolite Lumen8 F400, Proline X-300, and Westcott Strobelite 150.

The following month (published mid-December) has Bowens GM500R, Broncolor Minicom 40, Elinchrom BX500 and 250Ri, Lencarta ElitePro 300 and 600, Profoto D1 500 and 1000. The month after that comes a selection of battery powered units including Elinchrom Quadra and Lencarta Safari Li-on, and a few others that I can't confirm until I've actually got them, but probably including Profoto, Broncolor, Quantum, and maybe Innovatronix.

On the power thing, I've found that Ws (joules) is a pretty good guide (not to be confused with 'effective' Ws). The guide numbers, as Garry says, are useless for comparing between brands. For the magazine tests, a Lastolite UmbrellaBox was used because it has a 7mm shaft and can be fitted directly to all units. It's a 100cm reverse-firing white brolly with a softbox front and so it collects the light and reflects, projects and diffuses it in an identical way. All I would say about absolute power is how much do you need? A typical 400Ws head gives more than f/16 at 1m from that UmbrellaBox, with ISO100. It's just as important to know how far you can turn it down, and bear in mind that it's at low power that flash durations are longest, where the greatest colour shift towards warm occurs, and when flash to flash consistency fluctuates most.

Other than that, in fundamental performance terms the main thing that usually differentiates the more expensive heads is shorter flash durations. The t0.5 times quoted by most manufacturers are very optimistic and the real world action-stopping times are about 2x or 3x longer than you would expect at equivalent shutter speeds. The reviews includes high speed images and comparisons with actual shutter speeds.

Edit: with all that in mind, if I was buying an ideal outfit to tackle everything from table-top to solo portraits and bigger groups and interiors, it would probably include something like four heads of perhaps 2x 250Ws, 500Ws and 1000Ws, and I'd spend about the same again on a nice selection of light modifiers .
 
Last edited:
I usually steer well clear of these “which flash / what should I buy…” threads as I’ve only limited experience of certain brands and 99.99% of the time no one is going to buy what I use! But I did dip into this one as it seems to be going on a bit. So just some generalities; it is true that the stated specs should be used as a very rough guide only and certainly don’t tell the whole story (with perhaps the exception of Broncolor, who also add charts showing far more than the usual details).

Magazine reviews are mostly only of use to ascertain what facilities and general information about the equipment as they don’t usually go into the relevant details, at least not in this country! I can’t remember the last time I saw a UK magazine review that provided;

Multiblitz20Profilux20Eco20500__Temperature_Couleur1.jpg

Multiblitz20Profilux20Eco20500_IRC_max1.jpg

Multiblitz20Profilux20Eco20500__Nombre_Guide1.jpg

Multiblitz20Profilux20Eco20500__IRC_Courbe1.jpg


From which at least I’d know that the colour temp was a little cold at max power, when I dial down a stop, the power goes down a stop, colour rendition is very good (across the output range). The review samples provided more than the specified output. Then it’s down fit, finish and feel, range of accessories length of warranty, support and of course price.

Now I don’t use the flash units that the above data came from but a ‘newer’ version, never seen a review for those, so I bought one second hand to try, then decided if it ticked the right boxes, 8/10 for me, nearest competitor 6/10. Bought another newer head only to discover they’d changed the spec slightly giving output variation of 7 instead of 6 stops – not a problem just spoke to the distributor and got new boards fitted and everything updated at the factory FOC, just had to pay shipping - but that’s why you pay a premium price I guess?

Just one other point about autodumping – even if it is automatic it is far better for the head to fire a flash than let the capacitors bleed down as this adds to the running temperature of most units – indeed it states in all Elinchrom manuals that;

“…To avoid overheating, lower power settings, more than 2f-stop, can be discharged manually by releasing
the flash with the «Test» touch button…”


Mine self trigger by design (if necessary) as you turn down and even at switch off, which is perhaps the best of both worlds.

Paul
 
Last edited:
Just one other point about autodumping – even if it is automatic it is far better for the head to fire a flash that let the capacitor bleed down as this adds to the running temperature of most units – indeed it states in all Elinchrom manuals that;

“…To avoid overheating, lower power settings, more than 2f-stop, can be discharged manually by releasing
the flash with the «Test» touch button…”


Mine self trigger by design (if necessary) as you turn down and even at switch off, which is perhaps the best of both worlds.

Paul
That's absolutely right. The ones that have an autodumping feature that doesn't involve firing the flash make use of a resistor, and the resistor creates A LOT of heat that can cause short-term problems such as the head shutting down if it has effective overheat protection or blowing up if it doesn't. Long term effects are shortened life of key components.

It may be worth mentioning that SOME brands use resistors that aren't very efficient (possibly to avoid excessive heat) which means that the excess power only dumps slowly, possibly leading to a false sense of security because it's actually taken longer for the excess power to dump than the photographer expected.

The 'extra flash' autodumping method, which automatically dumps the flash by firing the flash when the power is turned down is OK because it's instant, positive and doesn't cause overheating or damage, but not everyone likes a flash going off when they adjust the power down.

That's why I personally prefer to have no auto dumping, I just automatically press the magic button whenever I turn down the power - a bit like automatically pressing down the clutch to change gear - something I do without thinking about it, but I accept that other people may have different views.
 
I usually steer well clear of these “which flash / what should I buy…”

<snip>

Paul

Interesting stuff Paul :thumbs: though I think you can have too much of a good thing ;)

On the colour issue, I wouldn't worry much about that with any of the heads I've reviewed recently, even the cheapest TBH, and they all vary. It's an inevitable consequence at lower outputs with the way that studio heads vary their power. The wider the range of output available, generally, the more the colour shifts to warm but none of them vary a huge amount and in practise if you balance things up to the main key light it's very unlikely that you'll even notice a slight shift on the background or whatever.

And there are greater variables introduced by the modifier (eg softbox fronts that tend to go a bit yellowish with age) and the studio environment, paricularly coloured walls and furnishings.

I also noticed when assessing the colour that there is not only an overall temperature shift, but also small bump of magenta at lower outputs that needs a tiny tweak of green to neutralise in Lightroom.
 
That's the whole point, and the point that I KEEP trying to make - choices should be made on all sorts of factors, the amount of energy stored in the capacitors is really fairly unimportant.
But everyone agrees that choices should be made on all sorts of factors. Power is just another factor, and presumably why you sell models with different power.

I don't like to talk about specific brands because someone, somewhere always thinks I'm trying to promote Lencarta
Is that point that you're trying to make: yes, I do promote Lencarta products, but some of my posts are not specifically about Lencarta, they are just general bits of advice etc
?
 
Not a great example, this was a sectional marquee, with a flash head in each section, pointing at the roof...

I had 4 heads in the marquee, 2 over the dance floor band area, and 2 in the 4 sections where all the seating was. I used a standard reflector on each, and made the light bounce round the angles on the roof sections... so shot was lit in an area that was covered with basically 2 flash heads covering about 120 people. They are 300w/s heads, and were on 1/4 power. I had the two "sets" of lights on different channels, which is why there is a drop off to the rear of the shot (dance floor area) Basically with this set up, I could pretty much shoot anywhere in the marquee, with a very minimal real variation in power (hence settings change) from shot to shot. I recall I was shooting at about F5.6 Plus or minus a tiddly bit
Good job, thanks for sharing. Beats sticking a flash in everyone's face.

I assume it's not quite as bright at daylight if at f5.6, say 1/200, iso 200?
 
Good job, thanks for sharing. Beats sticking a flash in everyone's face.

I assume it's not quite as bright at daylight if at f5.6, say 1/200, iso 200?

I was unclear. I meant compared to in the marquee, in the daylight

As a foot note, marquees in my experience are very awkward in the day time too. Most marquees act like a great big light tent, the light is often very soft and bright and diffuse, which doesn't really help, as all the images tend to look flat and dull and washed out

Add a little bit of thoughtfully placed flash, and all of a sudden, you have really great lighting

Anyway back to the main point - unless you are using a Fresnel spot, or a gridded snoot from a decent distance (which is often the case if you want to combat the ISL) you don't really need the power. If you have a small working space, some of the bigger flashes are almost too powerful

IMO the opinion the biggest real-world difference between cheap flash and expensive flash is the flash duration. If you want flash to stop motion properly, and you want a decent amount of power, you need to stump up a lot more cash.

The next difference is colour consistency at different power levels. One would hope that the colour temp of light was the same at 1/8th power as 1/1 power, and consistent between heads, but in reality there is a shift. How much of a shift - that is what varies from brand to brand

Power consistency from flash to flash is also important, but as far as I can see, most of the budget flashes are not too bad at this

So when choosing a flash head for general purpose use in a small'ish studio, you are probably better off looking at the performance of the unit at the "turned down end" of the scale, because that's the setting they are going to be used on for most of the time

If you are going to be carting the gear about, then other things suddenly become very important - durability, ruggedness, the casings, the carry bags. For the sort of work I do, range on the radio trigger, and having a selection of channels on the radio trigger is fairly important too, but for most studio based indoor photographers that wont be an issue at all
 
Last edited:
Beats sticking a flash in everyone's face.

Yes and no. Sometimes I use a SB800 on manual (about 1/16th) and use that as a fill flash, and leave the studio flashes (which are providing "overall lighting" on radio and optical trigger. With 2 cameras, one with a flash, the other with a trigger, it leaves me in a very flexible position. At the touch of a button I can go from

- Globally lit well (camera on manual)
- Not lit at all (turn off the SB800)
- Globally lit well + fill flash

With a little thought you can also balance the local lighting with the global lighting

I am very tempted by this: http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/multi_page.asp?cid=7-10053-10715

Note the writup about flash duration and power - great graphic!

Mainly i'm leaning towards a set of these because of this: http://www.paulcbuff.com/cc.php

What's a total bummer is the mount - and that's another reason to choose your gear carefully. There are loads of Bowens S fit modifiers out there, many of them really cheap. When you go down the elincrom / pro-photo / buff route, you are then having to buy propriety modifiers. So unless there is an adapter, you are stuck with buying usually expensive modifiers
 
I was unclear. I meant compared to in the marquee, in the daylight
Ah, I see.

Anyway back to the main point - unless you are using a Fresnel spot, or a gridded snoot from a decent distance (which is often the case if you want to combat the ISL) you don't really need the power.
My main need for power is combating the ISL.

Yes and no. Sometimes I use a SB800 on manual (about 1/16th) and use that as a fill flash, and leave the studio flashes (which are providing "overall lighting" on radio and optical trigger.
It's my experience as a guest at a wedding that puts me off sticking a flash in everyone's face. The idea of lighting the marquee sounds more appealing.
 
Back
Top