What am I doing wrong?

[Kinobe]

Right I've decided to take my photography one step further and decided to start experimenting with full manual.

However I'm doing something wrong I feel. I normally shoot on S or A to which is dependant on the environment or subject I'm shooting.

I switched to full manual and decided to set the aperture/shutter speed and white balance (which is set on auto) to the exact same settings to see if I could replicate the picture I shot in shutter priority. But the picture came out darker?

Shooting in S/A will give me options to change exposure by stops, thats correct yeah? but you as the photographer have to set these. When I first shot in S mode I decided not to change the exposure stop and did the exact same in Full Manual mode but the picture again was all dark.

There must be more settings going on in S/A modes that I'm unaware off?

Any advice and tips on where I'm going wrong is much appreciated. My Kit is as follows :

Nikon D100 + Nikon D70
Nikkor 24-85mm F2.8-4
Sigma 70-200mm F2.8
Nikkor 50mm F1.8

Thanks again

Ed

 

[Steve]

If you set everything at exactly the same settings and the conditions for the shot were also exactly the same then the two pictures should be identical. From what you are saying the other main variable that you could have missed was the metering type, usually cameras have several different settings depending on the make and model. Average, center weighted or spot metering will all return different setting for the same scene but as you were using the same settings for the same shot then the results should have been the same too.

Can you tell us what the shots where and how you set them up? Subject, time of day, was tripod used etc?

 

[Fangman]

S And A settings usually use evalutive (the whole screen averaged) or centre weighted ( about the centre circle of 1/3 -1/4 of the screen). In manual it may have settled on spot metering which is the area of the central focus point. If you check by focusing on varying points in the scene that would have filled the view finder you will see the exposure guide vary markedly. You can chose from the menu what type of metering you want - .

 

[Kinobe]

If you set everything at exactly the same settings and the conditions for the shot were also exactly the same then the two pictures should be identical. From what you are saying the other main variable that you could have missed was the metering type, usually cameras have several different settings depending on the make and model. Average, center weighted or spot metering will all return different setting for the same scene but as you were using the same settings for the same shot then the results should have been the same too.

Can you tell us what the shots where and how you set them up? Subject, time of day, was tripod used etc?

Thanks both for your help

I was taking pictures of a bed side table in the exact same conditions. It was mid afternoon, plenty of light with me even turning on two little lamps.

Settings were.....

F4.5
1/100
AB - Auto

I wasn't using a tripod it was handheld but would this make a difference?. I was standing in the same spot.

I will look at these different metering modes, would shooting on A/S modes changes these automatically? or does it just stay on automatic?

Sorry for these nooby questions, but its baffling me a bit as I must be doing something wrong!

Ed

 

[Steve]

Unless you are using a fixed point to shoot from for comparison then you are introducing human elements that are variable. You may be pointing the camera at what you think is the same point but it could be slightly off and if you have metered off a duller point when on auto, the picture will be darker when in manual.

If you have a tripod, set up the shot again, preferably in a room with say the curtains closed and just room lights on, take the two shots one on manual and one on auto with the same setting and the results should be identical.

I have to wonder what you are hoping to learn from the exercise though?

 

[Bachs]

I would also review the on-camera histogram (presuming your camera has one) to check exposure until you get the hang of it.
I always shoot manual and still use the histogram, which isn't hundred % accurate but is at least a good guide.

 

[Steve]

Also are you shooting JPG or RAW? If raw then during the conversion your software could be applying compensations automatically.

 

[Kinobe]

Unless you are using a fixed point to shoot from for comparison then you are introducing human elements that are variable. You may be pointing the camera at what you think is the same point but it could be slightly off and if you have metered off a duller point when on auto, the picture will be darker when in manual.

If you have a tripod, set up the shot again, preferably in a room with say the curtains closed and just room lights on, take the two shots one on manual and one on auto with the same setting and the results should be identical.

I have to wonder what you are hoping to learn from the exercise though?

Arr I c let me explain!

I've been looking at range of indoor event photography exifs of the subject people. One photographer was shooting using the same aperture/shutter speed throughout and once he found the right combination the results were to say the least excellent and consistant. Obviously it depends on the situation/lighting/environment.

The last few times I have shot in manual, pictures have become underexposed compared to shooting on shutter/aperture priority and I'm wanting to experiment with DOF further. I spose I'm just trying to push my photography knowledge/experience further.

I'm shooting on JPG currently. I've heard many advantages of shooting in RAW especially when it comes to exposure. So I might have to give that a go. Is it true that Nikon have released a new version of their raw editing software?

Thanks for the tips and all your help, I think I'll have a go with tripod.

Ed

 

[Steve]

Ahh I see and understand much more now. In that case may I suggest that to take some more control over your photography that you switch to aperture priority and then let the camera work out the shutter speeds needed to get the correct exposures. This way you can learn how the different apertures affect the depth of field and be creative in using that without needing to worry about under or over exposed shots.

The only other thing you should keep an eye on if you take these steps is your shutter speed, try to keep it at suitably fast settings to keep camera shake at bay or indeed stop motion blur if you don't want it. To maintain shutter speeds you might need to increase your ISO setting depending on the light available. Try to use as low as possible ISO at all times though to keep noise levels at a minimum

Learning manual is a great target but you will get there much quicker if you understand the steps in between. Learn to walk before you run

 

[Kinobe]

Ahh I see and understand much more now. In that case may I suggest that to take some more control over your photography that you switch to aperture priority and then let the camera work out the shutter speeds needed to get the correct exposures. This way you can learn how the different apertures affect the depth of field and be creative in using that without needing to worry about under or over exposed shots.

The only other thing you should keep an eye on if you take these steps is your shutter speed, try to keep it at suitably fast settings to keep camera shake at bay or indeed stop motion blur if you don't want it. To maintain shutter speeds you might need to increase your ISO setting depending on the light available. Try to use as low as possible ISO at all times though to keep noise levels at a minimum

Learning manual is a great target but you will get there much quicker if you understand the steps in between. Learn to walk before you run

Thanks for the reply. I've got the general gist of how DOF works and have had some "okay" results from my understanding. However in photography I find I'm never happy with the shot I produce, there have been instances where I say "the dof could of been slightly shallower" to which I then go out my way to try and achieve this.

When I shoot people on aperture priority I have problems with hand shake as the camera works out the desired shutter speed. Most of the time it will automatically shoot at 1/30 and tbh my hands arn't consitantly steady and the picture imo becomes ruined. However to eliminate this I could use a tripod and remote but I'm going to try and work on my photography stance which includes a breathing technique.

By going to manual I'll be able to experiment shooting people at different apertures whilst upping the shutter speed notches at a time (vice versa) to see what result I get which in turn will allow me to control DOF. Once I have found a setting I feel comfortable at, I could possibly develop my technique and apply this to my shooting environment.

Don't get me wrong okay? I'm not one for being bigheaded/boastful. I'm far from it tbh. But I'm always out there to improve my self and most of all learn.

Thanks again for all your help and advice!

Ed

 

[Steve]

When I shoot people on aperture priority I have problems with hand shake as the camera works out the desired shutter speed. Most of the time it will automatically shoot at 1/30 and tbh my hands arn't consitantly steady and the picture imo becomes ruined. However to eliminate this I could use a tripod and remote but I'm going to try and work on my photography stance which includes a breathing technique.

There are three things that directly affect the exposure…your aperture, your shutter speed and the ISO setting. You should be controlling the equipment to use the settings that you want to not the other way around. By factoring in and altering the ISO as well you will probably be able to get the shutter speed that you would like to use with your chosen aperture as well, thus removing camera shake. That’s why I mentioned it earlier in my previous post.

By going to manual I'll be able to experiment shooting people at different apertures whilst upping the shutter speed notches at a time (vice versa) to see what result I get which in turn will allow me to control DOF. Once I have found a setting I feel comfortable at, I could possibly develop my technique and apply this to my shooting environment.

Sure, trial and error is a good teacher but knowing what the equipment offers in terms of features to allow you to attain your goals is also important. I can see you understand the relationship between shutter speed and aperture but without factoring in ISO to give you the space and facility to maintain minimum shutter speeds, then no amount of playing will return the results that you want consistently. You will either get underexposed/overexposed as you alter the settings independently or blurred results due to slow shutter speeds; these are the complaints that you opened the thread with are they not?

Don't get me wrong okay? I'm not one for being bigheaded/boastful. I'm far from it tbh. But I'm always out there to improve my self and most of all learn.

Thanks again for all your help and advice!

Ed

Aren’t we all out to learn and improve, that’s why this site was set up

 

[Kinobe]

There are three things that directly affect the exposure…your aperture, your shutter speed and the ISO setting. You should be controlling the equipment to use the settings that you want to not the other way around. By factoring in and altering the ISO as well you will probably be able to get the shutter speed that you would like to use with your chosen aperture as well, thus removing camera shake. That’s why I mentioned it earlier in my previous post.



Sure, trial and error is a good teacher but knowing what the equipment offers in terms of features to allow you to attain your goals is also important. I can see you understand the relationship between shutter speed and aperture but without factoring in ISO to give you the space and facility to maintain minimum shutter speeds, then no amount of playing will return the results that you want consistently. You will either get underexposed/overexposed as you alter the settings independently or blurred results due to slow shutter speeds; these are the complaints that you opened the thread with are they not?



Aren’t we all out to learn and improve, that’s why this site was set up

The kind of response I'd expect from a well educated photographer. Thanks again for all the help.

From what you have written I've learnt that by experimenting with iso it will help me reduce my camera shake problem? is this right? Tbh I havn't really played much with iso speeds except in different light situations and that as you know it can generate noise in darker situations. But dark environments would see me using my Nikon F1.8 50mm, however again it depends on the shooting situation.

This is going to be a far out question here but in your opinion, if I was shooting an outdoor event which included people what settings (iso,a,s) would you use or at least start with? Lets say its cloudy and I'd be standing probably about 1.5 metres away from the subject using a f2.8-4 24-85mm. One photo I'd like to generate shallow dof with the people/person in focus and the second photo I everything sharp? One factor here would see me adjusting the aperture for both shots. But what about shutter speeds and iso?, shutter speeds will see me being able to freezeframe the subject but high shutter speeds would probably not be needed if I could avoid my camera shake So I assume this is where upping the iso could help? and steadier hands?

Apologies if that was a bit of a long winded newbie scenario. But photography is a minefield for me but the subject (photography) motivates me to learn as I enjoy it.

Thanks again.

Ed

 

[Steve]

From what you have written I've learnt that by experimenting with iso it will help me reduce my camera shake problem? is this right? Tbh I havn't really played much with iso speeds except in different light situations and that as you know it can generate noise in darker situations. But dark environments would see me using my Nikon F1.8 50mm, however again it depends on the shooting situation.

Let me clarify a little for you, to get a well exposed photograph you need to allow enough light to hit the sensor (in digital terms) for a long enough time. This is done by either opening up the lens wider (lower F Stop) or leaving the shutter open for longer. The first is the aperture and the second obviously shutter speed but by altering either of those we are changing the way the final photo looks. Now in the old days of film, there were several different ISO ratings, these referred to how sensitive each film was to light. The more sensitive, the higher the ISO and the less light was needed to get a properly exposed result. In Sensor terms the ISO is an electronic control over how sensitive it becomes, so if used correctly by increasing the ISO (sensitivity) you can get a properly exposed photo in less time without altering the F stop. This allows you to increase your shutter speed to eliminate camera shake at the cost of increased noise, although with most modern camera’s the noise is relatively low and can be controlled with ease.

So if you are shooting say in aperture priority at ISO 100, F8 and the shutter speed for a correctly exposed shot should be 1/30th sec, this would be too slow and introduce probable camera shake ruining the results. By altering the ISO to make the sensor more sensitive to light we can still shoot at F8 (to get the same depth of field but with a shutter speed of 1/60th to remove the camera shake. The ISO would now be higher and introduce slightly more noise though, as always there has to be compromises somewhere.

This is going to be a far out question here but in your opinion, if I was shooting an outdoor event which included people what settings (iso,a,s) would you use or at least start with? Lets say its cloudy and I'd be standing probably about 1.5 metres away from the subject using a f2.8-4 24-85mm. One photo I'd like to generate shallow dof with the people/person in focus and the second photo I everything sharp? One factor here would see me adjusting the aperture for both shots. But what about shutter speeds and iso?, shutter speeds will see me being able to freezeframe the subject but high shutter speeds would probably not be needed if I could avoid my camera shake So I assume this is where upping the iso could help? and steadier hands?

It is impossible to begin guessing at settings but for the shallow depth of field shot with the lens being wide open (you would be using a small F number) the sensor will be getting a fair amount of light and thus I would expect not to adjust anything to get decent shutter speeds in normal cloudy daylight. For the large depth of field say at F18, I would set my camera to aperture priority at ISO 100, F18 and half depress the shutter release to get a shutter speed, if that is below the speed I required I would increase the ISO until it was fast enough to suit. Each time I adjust it I would again half depress the shutter to get the new reading. Its quite a simple process and will return a correctly exposed shot without fail.

Apologies if that was a bit of a long winded newbie scenario. But photography is a minefield for me but the subject (photography) motivates me to learn as I enjoy it.

Thanks again.

Ed

I am sure that this thread will help others as well as it contains information that everyone can use if they didn’t already know it.

 

[Kinobe]

Thanks again for all your help. I am going to go away with this "new learnt" knowledge and put it into practise. I will certainly flick the camera back to aperture priority and take onboard your method of half depressing to get a read out then work it out from there and if its lower (the shutter read out) then up the iso.

Most of the time I've been shooting people on shutter priority due to camera shake problems. 1/80 1/100 I've been comfortable at, anything below is tbh hit and miss for shake which is why I've started to learn a breathing technique as well as a stance. However shooting on shutter priority I've noticed you loose the DOF but then thats expected in cases.

Is there a table/guide for correctly exposed shots? as in your example of iso100, f8, would equal 1/30sec. I think this may/could help me?

Thanks

Ed

 

[Steve]

Is there a table/guide for correctly exposed shots? as in your example of iso100, f8, would equal 1/30sec. I think this may/could help me?

No Ed my example was hypothetical and doesn't necessarily mean that the picture would be exposed correctly at those settings, it depends on the light at the time of the shoot. That’s why you need to alter the three variables on the day to get the correct results.

 

[Kinobe]

No Ed my example was hypothetical and doesn't necessarily mean that the picture would be exposed correctly at those settings, it depends on the light at the time of the shoot. That’s why you need to alter the three variables on the day to get the correct results.

Just goes to show how much I know and need to learn tbh I was however thinking it was hypothetical, however it (you) sounded rather convincing and I'm quite gullable at times :embarasse

I've also been reading up on how a flash can help remove camera shake.

Ed

 

[CT]

I think the first thing you need to understand is that Aperture and Shutter Priority Modes aren't there for the benefit of incapable photographers - when they first began to appear on cameras, pros hungrily snapped them up for the quicker working options these modes gave them. I rarely shoot in Manual Mode, preferring to use AP and SP depending on whether DOF or shutter speed is the most important consideration.

I honestly can't understand the preoccupation with wanting to shoot in Manual Mode, when you have Exposure Compensation and Programme Override available to you in AP and SP - both will give just as much control as Manual.

There are occasions when Manual is an advantage. Imagine you're taking shots of your gf with the sun at her back. In Manual Mode, you simply move right up till her face fills the viewfinder and balance the display. You can now retreat to where you want take your shots from, ignoring the fact that the exposure display is wildly out of balance when looking at the wider picture, as you know the main subject- your gf - will be properly exposed. Furthermore as long as the light doesn't change you can take as many shots as you like, moving further away or closer, and the exposures will still be good, being taken from her face, which is the bit that counts.

BUT... in AP or SP you have the Exposure Lock Button, Exposure Compensation and Programme Override, all at your disposal to achieve the same thing. If you're fortunate to have Spot Metering too, then that often makes these sort of shots much easier to meter for from a distance.

With regard to your other problem, the truth is that that the limit of what we can take hand held is always governed by the shutter speed in the first instance. There is no getting past the minimum shutter speed we can safely hand hold at, and for most of us the working rule of thumb is that the shutter speed equates to the focal length of the lens in use which gives us

50mm 1/50
100mm 1/00
500mm 1/500

And so on. Often we're forced to increase ISO just to get the bare minimum hand holdable shutter speed with a particular lens used wide open. Any thought of using smaller apertures with moving subjects is right out of the window anyway in low light conditions - without using flash.

The whole of photography is really a compromise between what you want to do and what the prevailing light will allow you to do.

 

[Kinobe]

I think the first thing you need to understand is that Aperture and Shutter Priority Modes aren't there for the benefit of incapable photographers - when they first began to appear on cameras, pros hungrily snapped them up for the quicker working options these modes gave them. I rarely shoot in Manual Mode, preferring to use AP and SP depending on whether DOF or shutter speed is the most important consideration.

I honestly can't understand the preoccupation with wanting to shoot in Manual Mode, when you have Exposure Compensation and Programme Override available to you in AP and SP - both will give just as much control as Manual.

There are occasions when Manual is an advantage. Imagine you're taking shots of your gf with the sun at her back. In Manual Mode, you simply move right up till her face fills the viewfinder and balance the display. You can now retreat to where you want take your shots from, ignoring the fact that the exposure display is wildly out of balance when looking at the wider picture, as you know the main subject- your gf - will be properly exposed. Furthermore as long as the light doesn't change you can take as many shots as you like, moving further away or closer, and the exposures will still be good, being taken from her face, which is the bit that counts.

BUT... in AP or SP you have the Exposure Lock Button, Exposure Compensation and Programme Override, all at your disposal to achieve the same thing. If you're fortunate to have Spot Metering too, then that often makes these sort of shots much easier to meter for from a distance.

With regard to your other problem, the truth is that that the limit of what we can take hand held is always governed by the shutter speed in the first instance. There is no getting past the minimum shutter speed we can safely hand hold at, and for most of us the working rule of thumb is that the shutter speed equates to the focal length of the lens in use which gives us

50mm 1/50
100mm 1/00
500mm 1/500

And so on. Often we're forced to increase ISO just to get the bare minimum hand holdable shutter speed with a particular lens used wide open. Any thought of using smaller apertures with moving subjects is right out of the window anyway in low light conditions - without using flash.

The whole of photography is really a compromise between what you want to do and what the prevailing light will allow you to do.

Firstly I apologise if I came across as "photographers using sp / ap are incapable" as that is 100% not the case and believe me that's not what I intended. But I realise now, the post could of been interpreted in many ways, so sorry for that.

The reason I wanted to use manual was just to experiment and to increase my knowledge. But reading through this thread has made it clear to me that my knowledge in the area of sp/ap was slack which therefore now tells me to concentrate on exposing well and getting the caputures I intended to shoot before acutally turning to manual and now I'm not to sure I even will, until/or a situation arises where I actually have to flick to manual.

With a flash I have read that this will indeed reduce camera shake. Not to sure if this is a noobie question but is there a general rule of thumb for focal lengths and shutter speeds when using (a) flash? I'm thnking however this is a newbie question cos it reall depends on what settings you set on your dedicated flash gun or infact any flash for that matter. One way to know is experiment.

I will definately try upping the iso if I'm finding the shutter read-out is less that expected which will help reduce camera shake when shooting on ap mode.

Thanks again for your help to CT, most helpful indeed.

Ed

 

[CT]

Firstly I apologise if I came across as "photographers using sp / ap are incapable" as that is 100% not the case and believe me that's not what I intended. But I realise now, the post could of been interpreted in many ways, so sorry for that.

No probs Ed, I never thought you meant that anyway. There was only Manual when I learned, but I was quick to appreciate the advantages of AP and SP when they first appeared. A lot of newbie photographers have never known anything other than multi -mode cameras, and must wonder about the advantages of shooting in Manual. Worry about Manual when you've got a bit more experience and use it if you find a need, not because someone tells you it's the only way to shoot, because it really isn't, providing you fully understand all the options that AP and Sp give you.

With a flash I have read that this will indeed reduce camera shake. Not to sure if this is a noobie question but is there a general rule of thumb for focal lengths and shutter speeds when using (a) flash? I'm thnking however this is a newbie question cos it reall depends on what settings you set on your dedicated flash gun or infact any flash for that matter. One way to know is experiment.

Think of a modern electronic flashgun as sunlight in your pocket. Yes - it can give you faster shutter speeds and enable you to use smaller apertures, just by providing lots more light. I'm going to avoid trying to answer the questions you raised about flash, as to do the questions justice is a massive undertaking. Modern dedicated flashguns are now so integrated with the camera, that flash has never been easier than it is today, often needing little intervention from the user, so go ahead and practice, you'll see what I mean..

I hope that hepls a little mate. I do actually sympathise with the newcomer who has to embrace all this technology and muti- mode cameras in one go. Being an old fart means I've been able to assimilate it all as it came along.... gradually.

 

[Fangman]

I should think that this series of Q & A has provided a useful tutorial for many coming to photography. I made my tribe start with fully manual cameras to give them some understanding of what the auto settings are trying to do. Reading the answers makes one think of how would I answer that, so it could be understood - a good learning process for the instructor as well as student. Congratulations to CT for the time given to us all!

 

[RobertP]

I use aperture priority mostly. With flash I use manual and let the flash decide how much light for a correct exposure. i have never used shutter priority but would imagine it is the way to go for shots to show action.

Just wanted to say that (as said by Steve) this will be a very useful thread for anyone learning their camera. I started out with a manual SLR with a little needle meter for exposure built in and manual focus of course, as CT said, without that this would all be more mysterious to me too....but I'm still learning

 

[Kinobe]

No probs Ed, I never thought you meant that anyway. There was only Manual when I learned, but I was quick to appreciate the advantages of AP and SP when they first appeared. A lot of newbie photographers have never known anything other than multi -mode cameras, and must wonder about the advantages of shooting in Manual. Worry about Manual when you've got a bit more experience and use it if you find a need, not because someone tells you it's the only way to shoot, because it really isn't, providing you fully understand all the options that AP and Sp give you.



Think of a modern electronic flashgun as sunlight in your pocket. Yes - it can give you faster shutter speeds and enable you to use smaller apertures, just by providing lots more light. I'm going to avoid trying to answer the questions you raised about flash, as to do the questions justice is a massive undertaking. Modern dedicated flashguns are now so integrated with the camera, that flash has never been easier than it is today, often needing little intervention from the user, so go ahead and practice, you'll see what I mean..

I hope that hepls a little mate. I do actually sympathise with the newcomer who has to embrace all this technology and muti- mode cameras in one go. Being an old fart means I've been able to assimilate it all as it came along.... gradually.

Thanks for clarifying that, I though uh oh, I've set off on the wrong foot hear, as it looks although this community is the kind forum I enjoy posting in as well as being part of (as a member)

I'm quite eager to learn things like most people. But at times I ask stupid questions and only realise afterwards that "yeah that was stupid" but I questioned myself in the first place "was it actually stupid to ask that question?" so I end up asking it? sound strange? But if I get a straight answer from people that know then it clarifys the info straight away and providing I've learnt from mistakes then all is okay with me.

I've got lots to learn in the digital field and I'm slowly understanding how some aspects of photography fit together. My Father was and still is a very creative thinker, in the 80's his skill enabled him to sell his photographs at exhibitons and make the cover of photography magazines with his works. This is until my Mother decided Dad was hardly home, so he had to give up his love for photgraphy for his lady wife! (my mum). He tried to get me interested when I was 16 but being ignorant all I wanted was a bike. It was only till last year after going out with my Fuji602 I realised Dad was right all along in that I would enjoy photography and perhaps one day I'm hoping to share the same succeses as Dad.

I'm trying to learn as much as possible whilst improving my photographic technique. Apparently I compose quite well? not to sure if thats true in all honesty but when I've had the compliment a few times, it gets me thinking.

Dad has the same view as you CT, in that there was so much to think about when digital wasn't about. I remember seeing some of Dad's motorsport equipment (Pentax LX w motor drive and Pentax 300mm F2.8) it was amazing the captures he produced and I don't normally boast as I'm not one for being bigheaded but his works amazed me.

Anyway before I bore you anymore hehe, thanks again for all you help. I'm learning all the time with photography and most of all enjoying it.

Ed

 

[CT]

Keep enjoying it mate that's far and away the most important bit!

I did have a Pentax LX. Incidentally, Pentax produced the first instant return mirror, the first TTL metering, and the first Aperture Priority camera, and the first autofocus lenses. Not bad for a maker who have never really achieved 'Pro' status for their gear.