Wet printing, a few questions...?

[TheTimeChamber]

As some of you know, I am in the process of moving into a new house. One of the things I want to try out is wet printing as the misses is allowing me space to have a darkroom.

Firstly, I have no planes at the moment to try out development. But I suspect this will change in the future.

My questions are:

1) what is the minimum amount of kit I will need (I realised Google will help here, but I have more questions)? Is there anything essential, that isn't normally listed on websites

2) condensing or diffusion light source? B&W only, or full colour?

3) how easy is colour printing? Do you actually see the colours from the negative with all the filters, or not? I am colour blind, so colour might not be the best...

4) papers - who is best?

5) can I borrow a tenner?

 

[excalibur2]

Well I think I can answer #3...as the last colour print I did was about 9 years ago. Well if things haven't changed you have to use chemicals at about 38c and you can actually dev in a trays\dishes on a hot plate but you have to do everything in absolute darkness i.e. place the paper under the enlarger, switch on for so many secs then transfer the paper to the dev dish for the required length of time then transfer to a stop bath then to the fixing dish (don't forget total darkness).
Also you don't see the colours from the neg projected on to the paper, but use the filters on the projector to get the colour right after test strips.
H'mm maybe your wife can tell you if the colours on your test strip are correct. Oh and one more thing:- 35mm is a PITA to try and stop dust being enlarged to white blobs on say a 8X10 print

 

[donut]

ive never printed colour ,but i got an enlarger a year ago ,the trouble is ive not got around to using it yet ,dont forget its a whole different load of chemicals and paper to black and white ,,,its quite an outlay for both ,so ive decided to sell on the colour enlarger and just stick to b+w and anything i want in colour will be digital ,,as for paper i dont think theres much of a choice probably just fuji and kodak when dialing in the colour correction on a print you have to go from a dry one ,,as the colours will change wet to dry you can get a colour safe light but its the old chocolate fire guard i think as to what you need an enlarger and three trays of your chosen print size

 

[Steve]

Exciting news Nick...you won't regret it.

Not sure where you are, but if you are near me in Manchester, you are welcome to come around and have a look at my darkroom. It was only created this year so its all still fresh in my mind.

I only do black and white...I've never got to grips with colour, and B&W is so absorbing you never really get bored with it.

For kit...keep an eye on ebay. Quite often you get someone selling their entire darkroom with enlarger, trays, chemical bottles and jugs, safelight, easel and everything else you need and prices seem still very reasonable.

For the enlarger, what size negatives will you be printing. If only 35mm and medium format, the Durst enlargers are pretty good value. But if you want to go large format too youre going to need a larger one like a devere.

For papers I use Ilford multigrade. Lovely paper and the ability to change contrast by using filters is a must imo.

For darkroom, will you have a dedicated space for it? Or will it be a temporary one like in a bathroom?

This is mine to give you an idea:

Dry side

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Wet side

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[excalibur2]

WoW what a setup.....but I would have painted all the walls matt black.

 

[Steve]

WoW what a setup.....but I would have painted all the walls matt black.

Good point Brian.

I did a lot of research on wall colour and there are a lot of contradictory views. I went with white walls to improve the bouncing of the safelight and some black card behind the enlarger as this is the only point of light leaking.

Seems to work fine as the room is surprisingly light, and I've not had problems at all with any fogging from light leaks.

From a lot of different forums, some swear walls must be black, others that they don't have to be at all. I've gone for the latter but with a little insurance behind the enlargers

 

[excalibur2]

Good point Brian.

I did a lot of research on wall colour and there are a lot of contradictory views. I went with white walls to improve the bouncing of the safelight and some black card behind the enlarger as this is the only point of light leaking.

Seems to work fine as the room is surprisingly light, and I've not had problems at all with any fogging from light leaks.

From a lot of different forums, some swear walls must be black, others that they don't have to be at all. I've gone for the latter but with a little insurance behind the enlargers

Maybe black walls are more important for colour printing :shrug: but when you think about it, the only light onto the paper should be from the projector, but using very long exposure times then white walls might have some affect from reflected light.

 

[StephenM]

1. Minimum kit

I started wet printing with a packet of powder developer and a packet of hypo crystals. Full stop. I contact printed, using a sheet of glass borrowed from a photo frame, used the normal room light for exposure, used a small night light as a safelight (the gaslight papers used for contact printing were OK with that), and saucers as developing dishes. That is probably the bare minimum (if you can get gaslight papers, which I seriously doubt!).

If you're happy contact printing (and it depends on the size of your negatives) then all you really need are a sheet of glass to hold paper and negative in contact, a safelight, thermometer and dishes. Plus come containers for the made up chemicals.

Add an enlarger (with lens) if you want to enlarge - and plan carefully what the largest size of negative you'll use will be.

Extras include things like a masking frame (to give white borders), a timer, possibly an enlarging exposure meter, and some means of focusing the lens critically.

2. Condensers won't show the dust as much, but will give a more contrasty image, so you may wish to adjust the developing time of the film to suit. A reason to process your own films. Diffusers will be hide defects more.

3. Difficult. I've only worked from slides (Cibachrome) and you have to carry out all steps in absolute darkness. With negatives, you have a worse time of it with colour balance, and if you're colour blind you are going to need help in assessing every test print.

4. Best for what is probably the best response. All have pros and cons - it's a case of what suits the negative and you. You could add variable contrast or fixed grade....

5. Yes, but you'll have to sign in blood and repay at an extortionate rate.

Finally - get Carson Graves' Elements of Black and White Printing. It's the book I wish had been available when I started. Then add in Ctein's Post Exposure and see why you should be using 10x8

Steve - envy. Mine is 7'x5' with no water.

As to the walls - white is fine. If the enlarger doesn't emit light when not exposing, the only light will be from the safelight, and you need a reasonable amount of light to see. Some people do paint the wall behind the enlarger black to cut out light spill and reflection during exposure. My walls are also almost white.

 

[Steve]

Maybe black walls are more important for colour printing :shrug: but when you think about it, the only light onto the paper should be from the projector, but using very long exposure times then white walls might have some affect from reflected light.

I think you're right. I was always told you can get away with a few small leaks with B&W, but colour has virtually zero tolerance. The longest exposures I've done have only been 2-3 minutes, and at that length I've never seen any fogging. Can't imagine having any exposures much longer than that so seems to be okay so far.

 

[excalibur2]

I think you're right. I was always told you can get away with a few small leaks with B&W, but colour has virtually zero tolerance. The longest exposures I've done have only been 2-3 minutes, and at that length I've never seen any fogging. Can't imagine having any exposures much longer than that so seems to be okay so far.

Well even my black walls had a sheen as I couldn't find any matt black paint at the time, but my setup looks carp compared to yours

 

[MartynK]

It's been a long time since I did wet printing - a very long time, actually - but I started in my early teens with a very makeshift setup for contact prints and eventually built an enlarger following the instructions I found in a library book. It worked well enough, but a friend's father offered to let us use his darkroom, providing we were 'careful' and paid for the consumables. That was back in the days when paper and chemicals were available from local photographic shops.

B & W is pretty straightforward. It's quite a tolerant process, and you can work with a safelight, which makes things easier. Colour is another matter, and I never really got to grips with it.

I'd start with B & W. It's less complicated, and comparatively inexpensive, so you can afford to experiment.

 

[TheTimeChamber]

Thanks for the replies guys, I thought there would be some difficulties with colour printing and colour blindness. I think I will stick to B&W printing at the moment which seems to have a wider stock of paper types, and get myself a proper colour printer in the future!

I plan to try and print from both 35mm and medium format.

The great news is that my brother knows someone at work who has stuffed their loft with Darkroom equipment that they have said we can have, so I could be in for a very good treat there

Exciting news Nick...you won't regret it.

Not sure where you are, but if you are near me in Manchester, you are welcome to come around and have a look at my darkroom. It was only created this year so its all still fresh in my mind.

I only do black and white...I've never got to grips with colour, and B&W is so absorbing you never really get bored with it.

For kit...keep an eye on ebay. Quite often you get someone selling their entire darkroom with enlarger, trays, chemical bottles and jugs, safelight, easel and everything else you need and prices seem still very reasonable.

For the enlarger, what size negatives will you be printing. If only 35mm and medium format, the Durst enlargers are pretty good value. But if you want to go large format too youre going to need a larger one like a devere.

For papers I use Ilford multigrade. Lovely paper and the ability to change contrast by using filters is a must imo.

For darkroom, will you have a dedicated space for it? Or will it be a temporary one like in a bathroom?

This is mine to give you an idea:

That looks lovely, thanks for the offer of coming round to have a look at yours, but I am all the way down in South London. It won't be a dedicated space, but there is a study type room that will be mine mainly and I plan to try and create some way of making it temporarily light tight and making a large enough workspace.

 

[Woodsy]

Steve, I am seriously jealous of your DeVere 504... and, well, your whole darkroom. Looks awesome

I can't really offer much more advice than has been given above, sorry!

 

[Steve]

Thanks for the nice comments about my darkroom, although those photos were taken just after it was finished; it's not looking quite so pristine and tidy now

yep Jonathon the Devere 504 is an awesome bit of kit. I consider myself very lucky owning photographic equipment that I lusted after when I was a teenager, and at the time seemed as out of reach as owning a Ferrari. This 504 was one of several that became available when one of the Liverpool universities decided to close their darkroom. It's been bashed around a bit by years of careless students, but is so well made it seems bomb proof. Sadly I'm only using it for MF at moment....really need to get to grips with LF to make best use of it.

Nick, all my previous darkrooms to this were in temporary rooms and black out cloth attached by velcro worked well for quick light proofing.

Also you said that you were only looking to do wet printing and not developing. I can't help thinking that maybe developing would be a quicker and easier passage into this, and initially maybe just develop B&W films and scan them. Very little equipment needed for this and with a changing bag no need for light proofing.

 

[donut]

if you can get to sittingbourne and want a bit of a demo / play with enlargers let me know Nick
if you want we could do the whole bit ,,,take pics develope film and print a few

( anyone wants to have a go just say )

 

[Steve]

1
Finally - get Carson Graves' Elements of Black and White Printing. It's the book I wish had been available when I started. Then add in Ctein's Post Exposure and see why you should be using 10x8

I hadn't heard of Ctein's book (actually thought it was a typo and should have been Stein or something....doh).

Anyway it's out of print, but he is currently offering it free as a pdf here: http://ctein.com/booksmpl.htm

I've downloaded it, and to be honest it's a bit more advanced than my current level, but a quick scan of some sections still found some information of use.

So get it free while it's still available.

 

[ChrisR]

Thanks for that link. I'm not going for wet printing (years away from that!), but I'm still ll adither on printing from scans. I sent some slide and colour negative scans to Peak, and the results are... ok... but a bit on the dark side compared to my expectations. I was expecting to go forward with an A4 printer, and use Peak or some other supplier for larger. Now I'm not sure; I've got a feeling I need to get more involved, to understand and iterate the process a lot more.

Sorry, this is off topic on wet printing.

 

[wickerman]

Thanks for that link. I'm not going for wet printing (years away from that!), but I'm still ll adither on printing from scans. I sent some slide and colour negative scans to Peak, and the results are... ok... but a bit on the dark side compared to my expectations. I was expecting to go forward with an A4 printer, and use Peak or some other supplier for larger. Now I'm not sure; I've got a feeling I need to get more involved, to understand and iterate the process a lot more.

Sorry, this is off topic on wet printing.

If you haven't done so already it would help if you calibrated your monitor. Peak actually have some helpful advice on this topic http://www.peak-imaging.com/htmls/monitor_calibration.html

 

[ChrisR]

I thought monitor calibration required special monkeys or something ( )! That sounds doable, although I don't have Photoshop. I use Aperture, but also have a copy of Elements 9. Would that do?

 

[trevorbray]

I thought monitor calibration required special monkeys or something ( )! That sounds doable, although I don't have Photoshop. I use Aperture, but also have a copy of Elements 9. Would that do?

Chris. You can probably still get a fully working, free, version of CS2 from Adobe. It's no longer supported but hey, it's free. Comes complete with activation code. Just Google free cs2 download.
Now that's a bargain..

 

[DemiLion]

Chris. You can probably still get a fully working, free, version of CS2 from Adobe. It's no longer supported but hey, it's free. Comes complete with activation code. Just Google free cs2 download.
Now that's a bargain..

It isn't free. You're expected to have a CS2 licence to use it.

 

[happygolucky]

It isn't free. You're expected to have a CS2 licence to use it.

I downloaded it for free...

 

[mid_gen]

It's just as illegal as using a copy downloaded from Piratebay, if you don't own a license. Safer from nasties though.

 

[Steve Smith]

WoW what a setup.....but I would have painted all the walls matt black.

Don't do that. You will hate it.

If you get reflections, just paint a small area black around the enlarger.

White is o.k. as if your safe light is safe, any reflections from it will be too,


Steve.

 

[Steve Smith]

It isn't free. You're expected to have a CS2 licence to use it.

Technically true but Adobe posted the code and a password so I'm sure they expected most people to download it without the benefit of a licence.


Steve.

 

[trevorbray]

It's just as illegal as using a copy downloaded from Piratebay, if you don't own a license. Safer from nasties though.

Adobe have put it out there. They know that probably tens of thousands of copies have been downloaded.
I guess they figure it's 'puppy dog' selling. After all, when you've tried it how can you live without it ?
I'll bet an awful lot of people will happily pay for a later version after using it for a while.

Adobe aren't mugs. Better this than Bit Torrent or whatever it's called.

 

[excalibur2]

It isn't free. You're expected to have a CS2 licence to use it.

Well I think Microsoft and Adobe know what they are doing as it's the same principle whether it's the metric system to software programs in that if you get every one using them, then you kill the competition.
So for e.g. Microsoft has been very lax in confronting piracy and now they control the world with their OS, so once the main competition is killed off, they are now trying to get Intel processors etc to only work with legal software...so once you have a monopoly you can turn the screw.
As for Adobe, they have got many pros using their software, so can now operate pay as you go and that means you can never use their future software for ever like before i.e. once a ver is bought no further costs.