Well, where do we all stand on Reds?

Some good points there Charlie, especially on the re-emergence of the Pine Martens, I firmly believe that the increase in otters is thwarting the population of mink as well, though again, that is only my thought, i`m not sure if any data exists to prove me wrong or otherwise.
 
Still running guys? now there is a surprise :D

Yantorsen said:
lol, fine, shooting on site i heard, without a fair trial :eek:

even saddam got a trial :(
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Bet it wasn't "fair" though the outcome was already preordained ;)

fracster said:
Cymag banned now Chris?

Ignore that and go to flop.
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I did :D but now I am awake I will answer 2 years this November IIRC
( if you have any get rid its an offence to posses now :rules:)
All we have is Phostoxin or Talunex Cymag had an anti-dote these don't!
Go figure :bang:
fracster said:
Some good points there Charlie, especially on the re-emergence of the Pine Martens, I firmly believe that the increase in otters is thwarting the population of mink as well, though again, that is only my thought, i`m not sure if any data exists to prove me wrong or otherwise.
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I know people that were heavily involved in the red kite re-intorduction in the chilterns early / mid 90's even they admit it was over done!
As most of the stock was Spanish does this make it a non-indigenous species :shrug:
 
I don`t think the introduction of Spanish Red Kites was wrong Chris, the Red Kites were here originally, but had been persecuted to extinction(?) or damned near it. As they were already indiginous, prior to human intervention, the re-introduction was correct.

Have not used cymag for donkeys years, phosdrin banned as well now? Not that it is used of course, i`m no lover of poisoning anything if it can be avoided.
 
fracster said:
I don`t think the introduction of Spanish Red Kites was wrong Chris, the Red Kites were here originally, but had been persecuted to extinction(?) or damned near it. As they were already indiginous, prior to human intervention, the re-introduction was correct.

Have not used cymag for donkeys years, phosdrin banned as well now? Not that it is used of course, i`m no lover of poisoning anything if it can be avoided.
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Just playing Devils advocate on the Red kites Ade :D
They were here sure but then they weren't so were re-introduced from another country.
That makes them a sub species or at least slightly genetically different. Will they displace our Buzzards or Black kites in time,
that had moved in to fill the ( vacant) niche' left by the Red Kites :shrug: who knows.
I have never used phosdrin, Ade so I don't know the "status" of it. However
I don't know anyone else who has used it either, and isn't listed by any of my suppliers so I guess it is illegal in the UK at least

 
Good point on the red kites/black kite/buzzard argument. I can`t foresee the red kites spreading as widely nor as quickly as the grey squirrels have done, though, I stand to be corrected of course......:)
 
fracster said:
Good point on the red kites/black kite/buzzard argument. I can`t foresee the red kites spreading as widely nor as quickly as the grey squirrels have done, though, I stand to be corrected of course......:)
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They ( grey squirrels) were introduced in the early 1800's so I have no idea how long it took them to colonise "all areas"
The kites IIRC were introduced around the 1990's about another 100 years or so will prove me right or wrong I guess ( I'll let you know :D )


 
CT said:
There's no getting away from the fact that greys were introduced into this country with no regard for the possible consequences for the environment and how it might affect native species, which was criminally irresponsible in the first place.
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I don't feel that any of us should need to take it upon ourselves to play God and decide what should live and what should die - but the reality is that greys are really little more than pretty-looking rats that cause problems for other wildlife as well as for reds, and that some kind of humane control is needed in areas where the numbers are out of control. But I stress 'humane' and I don't feel that trapping, poisons or airguns are humane.

Not that the introduction of greys is by any means the only irresponsible interference that we humans are responsible for - mixamatosis is a horrible artificial disease introduced to reduce the rabbit population. Mixamatosis is now 'back' in N. Yorkshire and, on our land at least, there are now no rabbits at all. As a result the foxes are starving to death (or at least they will be when they've finished off the last of our hens) and, as a landowner who cares about the wildlife, having shot every rabbit that I've seen with mixamatosis (probably a tiny percentage of the total that have died underground) I now feel that I have an obligation towards the foxes, which IMO are better off dying from an ounce of lead than from starvation.

If the reds really are developing immunity and can get a foothold again, I think that that will be the time for individuals to decide what, if anything, should be done about the greys. Meanwhile the greys have a purpose - they are providing some food for the foxes.
 
I have not seen any red squirrels since I was a child when they were quite common. I would be quite happy to see less greys (or greys only in zoos and the reds come back).

If the UK had to depend on itself for food and the greys keep increasing at their current rate then I think we could starve - for fruit especially. We are constantly redoing our strawberry cage where they chew though the wire. They have eaten all our apples and peaches long before they were ripe.

I went to Hastings to photograph squirrels a few months ago. People feed them monkey nuts (by the carrierbag full). In one small area I think we counted nearly 40 around us (and at least three rats plus many fleas - some of which decided I would make a nice meal). There must be hundreds if not thousands in that park. If only we could put some contraceptives (or something) in the food they are given they should soon reduce their numbers and eventually die out
 
strange how we managed to wipe out bears and wolves by hunting them but cannot do the same with greys.
i say kill them
 
sawman said:
The problem was not caused by natural evolution though. The problem has been caused by man meddling with nature.

Now we have a problem that seems to be causing the death of our native Red Squirrel. Once extinct in this country I would doubt if like the Sea Eagle for instance ,if we could reintroduce in the future because the Grey Squirrel will still be around.

My guess would be that if the reds can get some sort of immunity resistance built in we should then concentrate on firstly keeping greys at bay in the red strongholds. Then if we can get some good breeding seasons so the native reds can increase we should be culling out greys in suitable habitat for reds. The scientists I believe have been working on a contraceptive for greys. Maybe science can help a bit more.

I also read that with the increase in Pine Marten in some areas they are having an effect on greys as they are easy to catch compared with reds
That would then be nature at work for evolution.:thinking:

I would like to take heart though that at least people are talking about the subject openly. We may none of us be right but I for one am firmly on the side of our native red & if they appear here where they have never been then they will be culled.
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so it's ok to kill inocent individuals just to fit your ideal?
 
Garry Edwards said:
and that some kind of humane control is needed in areas where the numbers are out of control. But I stress 'humane' and I don't feel that trapping, poisons or airguns are humane.

.
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A relevant post Gary but having taken those three out of the equation what would you suggest?
Personally, on open land they either get a 12 bore or .22 rim-fire. in enclosed spaces they are live trapped and killed quickly the Fen MKIV or VI or the recent "Kania" are very effective both inside and out Warfarin poison is also a legal method as long as the poison in in "hoppers" to exclude other wild life.
and only "outside" between 15 March and 15 August.
( these are all legal methods and endorsed by DEFRA)
 
Yantorsen said:
so it's ok to kill inocent individuals just to fit your ideal?
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I don't think it's about innocence or guilt. All animals except humans are innocent, and I believe that the only people who have a right to criticise those of us who believe it's acceptable to kill animals are vegans.
 
Garry Edwards said:
I don't think it's about innocence or guilt. All animals except humans are innocent, and I believe that the only people who have a right to criticise those of us who believe it's acceptable to kill animals are vegans.
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On what grounds do you justify killing an individual grey squirrel?
 
Garry Edwards said:
and I believe that the only people who have a right to criticise those of us who believe it's acceptable to kill animals are vegans.
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Vegans who don't wear leather coats or shoes, or feed their pets whale meat! ;) I can respect people with that sort of commitment, but I still think they're wrong.
 
CT said:
Vegans who don't wear leather coats or shoes, or feed their pets whale meat! ;) I can respect people with that sort of commitment, but I still think they're wrong.
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Oooo CT :D ( I do concur on both counts BTW :thumbs:)
 
Cobra said:
A relevant post Gary but having taken those three out of the equation what would you suggest?
Personally, on open land they either get a 12 bore or .22 rim-fire. in enclosed spaces they are live trapped and killed quickly the Fen MKIV or VI or the recent "Kania" are very effective both inside and out Warfarin poison is also a legal method as long as the poison in in "hoppers" to exclude other wild life.
and only "outside" between 15 March and 15 August.
( these are all legal methods and endorsed by DEFRA)
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I'm not disputing the legality, just questioning the morality. I feel that live traps must be an horrific experience for wild animals and Warfarin is a pretty unpleasant death. 12 bores - very humane. .22 LR rimfire - only humane if it happens to hit bone, otherwise they just pass straight through with fatal but not immediate effect

Vegans who don't wear leather coats or shoes, or feed their pets whale meat! I can respect people with that sort of commitment, but I still think they're wrong. Vegans don't use any products from animals, live or dead. Whether their beliefs are right or wrong is another debate, my point is just that they are the only people who, IMO, have a moral right to be critical of people who kill animals.
 
Can't recommend 'em - tried one once. :gag:
 
Yantorsen said:
On what grounds do you justify killing an individual grey squirrel?
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So are you saying we should just let the grey squirrel continue on its way unchecked until all the reds are wiped out?
An individual grey can carry the pox & as I said earlier I for one will do my bit to try to make sure they do not infect our resident reds.
 
I don't think anyone is suggesting completely eliminating greys, but our native red squirrel is a beautiful creature, now seriously threatened by the explosion in the grey population. Once they've gone it's another species completely lost to us. If we were talking about Giant Pandas, Tigers, or Mountain Gorillas, there wouldn't be this soul searching about the means necessary to ensure their survival. In this case the remedy is control of the grey population.
 
Garry, a .22 that hits a bone, well most bones, will distort and wreak havoc with the internal organs of a mammal, death is very quick in that instance. If it goes clean through, without hitting the heart, death can be long and drawn out.
 
Garry Edwards said:
I'm not disputing the legality, just questioning the morality. I feel that live traps must be an horrific experience for wild animals and Warfarin is a pretty unpleasant death. 12 bores - very humane. .22 LR rimfire - only humane if it happens to hit bone, otherwise they just pass straight through with fatal but not immediate effect
.
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Without banging on about the effects of certain types of poisons or "firearms"
Warfarin and its modern derivitives are very quick acting, yes I agree we all know that its an anti-coagulant but still quick.
A 12 bore can well put several pellets in the animal without kiling it
a soft nose subsonic .22 ( now only legal if "pest control" is stated on the licence) in the right place
( head or chest ) is very effective. either way I wait until the squirrel drops from the tree or put another round into so it does. then you can be certain that its dead
edit kids or other ill equipt persons taking pot shots at "anything" is a really bad idea
culling should be left to the professionals
 
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fracster said:
Garry, a .22 that hits a bone, well most bones, will distort and wreak havoc with the internal organs of a mammal, death is very quick in that instance. If it goes clean through, without hitting the heart, death can be long and drawn out.
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I think you misread my post. I said the same thing, just in shorthand:lol:
 
CT said:
I don't think anyone is suggesting completely eliminating greys, but our native red squirrel is a beautiful creature, now seriously threatened by the explosion in the grey population. Once they've gone it's another species completely lost to us. If we were talking about Giant Pandas, Tigers, or Mountain Gorillas, there wouldn't be this soul searching about the means necessary to ensure their survival. In this case the remedy is control of the grey population.
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Wise words indeed.

I think I made it clear earlier that my view is the grey squirrel should be kept at bay where there are good populations of reds. Any area without reds but could hold them should also be considered for grey control. No point in killing out greys where there are & never have been reds. Although that would then be the breeding stock for more greys. We could debate this till the cows come home & still not all agree.

I will do what I can to protect the reds on my patch.

The question was where do we stand on the red / grey debate. I have given my stance & will not budge.

I do not see the point in saying any more.
 
Joe T said:
I want to know who introduced the red squirrels in the first place! ;)

And if they displaced any species back then! :p
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They evolved from dinosaurs Joe
( or did God create them I am never too sure :shrug: :D)
 
sawman said:
Wise words indeed.

I think I made it clear earlier that my view is the grey squirrel should be kept at bay where there are good populations of reds. Any area without reds but could hold them should also be considered for grey control. No point in killing out greys where there are & never have been reds. Although that would then be the breeding stock for more greys. We could debate this till the cows come home & still not all agree.

I will do what I can to protect the reds on my patch.

The question was where do we stand on the red / grey debate. I have given my stance & will not budge.

I do not see the point in saying any more.
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And I applaud those sentiments Charlie keep up the good work :thumbs:
also as I understand it, and you may be able to shed a little more light on the subject "we" also helped the greys by greatly reducing our native trees
such as the Oak and replaceing them with the faster growing pines which were more to the liking of the Greys ?
 
Cobra said:
And I applaud those sentiments Charlie keep up the good work :thumbs:
also as I understand it, and you may be able to shed a little more light on the subject "we" also helped the greys by greatly reducing our native trees
such as the Oak and replaceing them with the faster growing pines which were more to the liking of the Greys ?
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Not quite. In Scotland we tend to find the greys among the hardwoods more while the conifers hold the reds better. Scots Pine & Larch being favoured species both by the reds & my saw!:lol:
I always look with envy to England for its fine hardwoods though. Thats another story.
:D
Are we going to debate timber next?:lol:
 
It has been a pleasant enough discussion so far.....:)

I always thought the greys preferred hardwoods to softwoods..........:shrug:
 
The greys can digest acorns but the reds can't.

Another reason for the onward march of the greys.
 
So, hypothetically Janice, If the greys were to be culled, would you be in favour,or not?
 
fracster said:
So, hypothetically Janice, If the greys were to be culled, would you be in favour,or not?
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In red areas, yes certainly.

People are saying that it was humans fault that greys were introduced not the greys fault themselves so we shouldnt cull them.

These humans had no idea what would happen when they did.........if they had been told they would probably not have done it.

They made a mis-informed mistake, as we all do from time to time, which doesnt mean that we have to sit back and watch it take its course if we are able to do something about it.

Its not because reds "look cute".. its because they are British.......end of!
 
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