Weddinng Seasons again...Share your fav links

Raymond Lin

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I have a wedding to shoot at the end of August so I went looking for inspirations on the net and came across this, if there ever of a collection of perfect photojournalism with wedding this is it.

http://www.jeffascough.net/main.html

I am gobsmacked at some of the images he captured...I would be over the moon getting 1/10 of those come August.
 
hhhmmm, he probably charges thousands of £££ for a wedding - Something I doubt any of us on here (no disrespect meant) can come close to as of yet. Notice he doesn't put the prices on the website - it's like the old saying - if you have to ask how much, then you can't afford it. :)
 
lovely, meaningful images. I sometimes think the formality of some wedding shoots ruins the atmosphere, these looks great because each one feels dynamic/spontaneous.
 
Nice photos but just a bit too abstract for my taste, but I guess that is his style. 70% B&W.....wonder how many couples prefer this sort of style?

Its exactly the sort of thing I would want to produce for a wedding. Clearly it works as a business model if he's one of the top 10 in the world.
 
It's what you don't see that is important. I've looked briefly at his portfolio and it seems predominantly a documentary style.

We've been to see four clients recently for shoots over the next four weeks, each and every one has requested we do some "formal" group shots. "He who pays the piper calls the tune". We do the documentary approach but we also provide what the couple want. It would be wrong NOT to be meet the couples' requirements and expectations.

So, what am I getting at here? We've never been tempted to include in our public showcase group shots of family groups. We do them, and I believe we do them well but they just don't show off our abilities, neither does it promote,totally, our style. In hindsight, all of our weddings we've been praised for the effort we've put into doing the formal and informal stuff! Would we have been selected if we had just showcased what was more than acceptable 30 years ago? I don't believe it for one minute. And I bet this guy does some of the other stuff as well. Having said that some togs are such prima-donnas that they may refuse to do them and cast off the idea in an arty flouncy way!

Don't forget, different cultures have different expectations. A true professional would give what their client would require with a bit of artistic license...... :thumbs:
 
We've been to see four clients recently for shoots over the next four weeks, each and every one has requested we do some "formal" group shots. "He who pays the piper calls the tune". We do the documentary approach but we also provide what the couple want. It would be wrong NOT to be meet the couples' requirements and expectations.

SNIP

I am relatively new to the wedding business, just reached double figures in terms of number of events covered. And must agree with the above, couples first contact is all about reportage, but as soon as you get nearer the time and discuss finer details everyone of mine has requested at least some 'formal' traditional shots. Usually it's for Mum's and Dad's, but as you say, the customer is always right.

It just becomes a pain when on the day there are loads of groups to do the more formal stuff and they haven't told you beforehand, or factored in the time it takes.
 
Jeff's a good friend of mine, and a great guy. (I've finally forgiven him for his lifelong crush on Kylie Minogue.) We had planned on him photographing my wedding, but when the time came, he was already booked. Damn.

He does fantastic work. He was a film shooter (Leica man) until just the past year or two. His digital work looks quite similar to his film work, thank the Lord.

Personally, I don't play the "customer is always right" game. That's not to say that I refuse to be flexible when I can. It's more that I lay out very, very clearly what I do and how I work, and if it's a good fit, we go forward. Then my only obligation is to do what I do well.

As far as formal shots, there are definitely a few that I plan on even if the couple says they don't want it. I do get at least one shot of the wedding party (although I do it less traditionally) and I do get portrait-like shots of the bride and groom. I'm more than happy to get shots of the parents.

What I don't do is run around with a checklist getting the cake-cutting shot, the garter-pulling shot, yada yada. I follow the story and document what unfolds.

As a matter of interest, both Jeff and I have done away with showing couples proofs. In both of our cases, we've found it far simpler and more pleasant for the couple to do the selection ourselves, put together the album in the way that best tells the story, and the first they see of their images is the completed album. Works fabulously.

- CJ
 
As I say..... different cultures. We'll be like this in 10 years. That seems to be the lag across the pond!

A common people separated by a common language! :lol:
 
As I say..... different cultures. We'll be like this in 10 years. That seems to be the lag across the pond!

A common people separated by a common language! :lol:

Sorry, Chuckles, not quite sure I understand what you're saying?
 
I think he's saying that the yanks is leading the way ? Thou Jeff is English....so that doesn't make sense...
 
As a matter of interest, both Jeff and I have done away with showing couples proofs. In both of our cases, we've found it far simpler and more pleasant for the couple to do the selection ourselves, put together the album in the way that best tells the story, and the first they see of their images is the completed album. Works fabulously.

- CJ

I really like that idea but think it is a bit too limiting as we don't know, apart from the main characters, who the bride and groom want in their book. We usually put about 40 photos in a 20 page photobook which the couple choose from at least 80 shots. We have given them too much choice in the past....from that 40 I simply ask them to choose the shots they want to be full page, usually about 6 and then I do the layout myself, which works through from start to finish. Not had any complaints so far. I have no problem doing the cutting of the cake shots...am I old fashioned? :thinking: Would I be brave enough to just present the album to them? hmmm.....it certainly would make life so much simpler!
 
I dunno....cjnicolai, can you tell Jeff he has a new fan :)

And You have any tips of doing that kind of wedding photojournalism ? Or does he?
 
I really like that idea but think it is a bit too limiting as we don't know, apart from the main characters, who the bride and groom want in their book. We usually put about 40 photos in a 20 page photobook which the couple choose from at least 80 shots. We have given them too much choice in the past....from that 40 I simply ask them to choose the shots they want to be full page, usually about 6 and then I do the layout myself, which works through from start to finish. Not had any complaints so far. I have no problem doing the cutting of the cake shots...am I old fashioned? :thinking: Would I be brave enough to just present the album to them? hmmm.....it certainly would make life so much simpler!

Marianne, I think you'd be surprised at how adept you can be at identifying the important characters. Not following a shot list frees me up to REALLY observe the couple and those they interact with at their wedding. It's generally easy to identify who I need to include.

I always tell my clients that if they want to be sure I get a shot of someone, they should make it a point to interact with them! LOL. After all, I'm primarily following the bride and groom. If they don't feel someone is important enough to spend time with at the wedding, I generally don't either. ;)
 
It's just a culture thing..... in the UK at the moment it's very difficult to step outside what a couple want for their day. Even "high society" occassions are wrapped up in "what we want is ...." A lot of togs will produce a documentary of the couple's day but in ALL the negotiations with clients I've done recently they've ALL stipulated that they want family groups of this, that or the other! That's after we've shown them how it would be in the genre of which you and Jeff shoot which they also like.

It's a different culture here. Families don't really go for a studio shoot that often so, have tended to rely on social events such as weddings to formalise their family record.

We speak the same language but are separated by a huge cultural difference. We say the same words but can sometimes interpret them differently. That's all I was saying. :shrug:

Trends there (USA) are usually reflected over here about 10 years later! Except for hippies.... they came to us five years earlier than anticipated! :lol:
 
chuckles, i don't think it just apply to weddings. If you look at any family albums of anyone random (or any female) you will find that 99% have their photos posed, even in a night out their photos are all posed. I look at my friends pictures on facebook, album after album is the same. Same smile, same faces, the only differences is the dress and the background. You can't tell what they've been doing that day/moment.

What I am saying is that idea of a good photo carries over when it comes to weddings, and all they know is a posed ground shots, shoulder to shoulder is the one they want. But until you show them what Candids and photojournalism is like and what it can be they will just think its rubbish.
 
I dunno....cjnicolai, can you tell Jeff he has a new fan :)

And You have any tips of doing that kind of wedding photojournalism ? Or does he?

Raymond, absolutely and absolutely.

A few tips:

1) You'll need to have a great understanding of lighting. Fantastic moments happen wherever they happen, and you'll need to be able to catch them. Know how to meter for backlight, silhouettes, moody light and low light. Be sure your equipment is equal to the task. If your fastest lens is an f/4, you may not be able to catch the moments you're after.

2) Learn to be a great observer. So many photogs that I know and/or have taught are so busy snapping away that they don't see the really great moments. Know how to wait. Snapping fifteen photos may mean missing the truly definitive shot.

3) Know how to be invisible when you need to be. Photojournalists need to go as unnoticed as they can most of the time.

I could write forever on this one, but those really sum up the majority of it.

- CJ
 
It's just a culture thing..... in the UK at the moment it's very difficult to step outside what a couple want for their day. Even "high society" occassions are wrapped up in "what we want is ...." A lot of togs will produce a documentary of the couple's day but in ALL the negotiations with clients I've done recently they've ALL stipulated that they want family groups of this, that or the other! That's after we've shown them how it would be in the genre of which you and Jeff shoot which they also like.

It's a different culture here. Families don't really go for a studio shoot that often so, have tended to rely on social events such as weddings to formalise their family record.

We speak the same language but are separated by a huge cultural difference. We say the same words but can sometimes interpret them differently. That's all I was saying. :shrug:

Trends there (USA) are usually reflected over here about 10 years later! Except for hippies.... they came to us five years earlier than anticipated! :lol:


Chuckles, Jeff is British and he is a true photojournalist. Works very much like I do.
 
Marianne, I think you'd be surprised at how adept you can be at identifying the important characters. Not following a shot list frees me up to REALLY observe the couple and those they interact with at their wedding. It's generally easy to identify who I need to include.

I always tell my clients that if they want to be sure I get a shot of someone, they should make it a point to interact with them! LOL. After all, I'm primarily following the bride and groom. If they don't feel someone is important enough to spend time with at the wedding, I generally don't either. ;)

I like that idea....but I still think to work from a list of what they want is helpful...as Chuckles and I work together we also get loads of candids as the group shots are being taken, I do feel that we get the best of both worlds by working like this and as time goes by, maybe I will feel more able to use my judgement rather than a list, who knows :shrug:

I like Jeff's work, a lot, I love his processing, very arty and beautiful, but then I am an arty person. I have discussed this with an artistic tog friend of mine too, his work is quite outrageous by most people's standards but I mostly love it! I think Barry and I have a happy medium of artistic and traditional...it's what we are all comfortable with isn't it? The skill involved is the same isn't it? I can do arty processing if required, and usually drop a few examples in with the proofs ;) These tend to get chosen for prints...
 
Raymond, absolutely and absolutely.

A few tips:

1) You'll need to have a great understanding of lighting. Fantastic moments happen wherever they happen, and you'll need to be able to catch them. Know how to meter for backlight, silhouettes, moody light and low light. Be sure your equipment is equal to the task. If your fastest lens is an f/4, you may not be able to catch the moments you're after.

2) Learn to be a great observer. So many photogs that I know and/or have taught are so busy snapping away that they don't see the really great moments. Know how to wait. Snapping fifteen photos may mean missing the truly definitive shot.

3) Know how to be invisible when you need to be. Photojournalists need to go as unnoticed as they can most of the time.

I could write forever on this one, but those really sum up the majority of it.

- CJ

Thanks for that :)

Anyone want to buy me a 17-55 F/2.8? :help:
 
Marianne, there are lots of different ways of working, and no one to say what's best, thank God. ;)

Personally, I would be extraordinarily limited by working from a client's shot list. I don't like the feeling of running around checking items off a list. I would have a very hard time feeling creative under those circumstances. I want to immerse myself in the couples' story and their day, and shoot emotively rather than as an assignment.

I do think there are many different skill sets in photography. Jeff's skills as an incredible photojournalist are VERY different than Yervant's skills as a fashion-inspired wedding photographer, and even more different than the Monte Zucker-esque traditional wedding photographers. "Arty" to me has less to do with post-processing than with the perspective of the image. Personally, my shots are all printed straight with maybe a little dodging or burning. No effects whatsoever. But they still are "arty".

There are thousands of photographers out there. There's something for everyone. From my perspective, I would rather do what I do all out, uncompromisingly and without apology, and attract only those clients who want what I do. I'm not really going for a happy medium. ;)
 
Marianne, there are lots of different ways of working, and no one to say what's best, thank God. ;)

Personally, I would be extraordinarily limited by working from a client's shot list. I don't like the feeling of running around checking items off a list. I would have a very hard time feeling creative under those circumstances. I want to immerse myself in the couples' story and their day, and shoot emotively rather than as an assignment.

I do think there are many different skill sets in photography. Jeff's skills as an incredible photojournalist are VERY different than Yervant's skills as a fashion-inspired wedding photographer, and even more different than the Monte Zucker-esque traditional wedding photographers. "Arty" to me has less to do with post-processing than with the perspective of the image. Personally, my shots are all printed straight with maybe a little dodging or burning. No effects whatsoever. But they still are "arty".

There are thousands of photographers out there. There's something for everyone. From my perspective, I would rather do what I do all out, uncompromisingly and without apology, and attract only those clients who want what I do. I'm not really going for a happy medium. ;)

It's up to the customers to choose the style of photographer that suits them at the end of the day...our clients seems to fit in with us and I daresay yours do the same for you :)
 
Chuckles, Jeff is British and he is a true photojournalist. Works very much like I do.

I'm not really bothered where he comes from..... he could be Martian for all it matters!

The point is the client base has expectations. It would be so wrong to dictate too strongly what their album should be. We can lead them on a particular path and let them choose or give them no choice at all. At the end of the day, it is indeed a matter for the client to choose whether they like the work. Especially at the rate they paid for it. We can offer all sorts of things, but it still remains a cultural thing and very much what the client can afford to pay.

In a high society situation it can be very much, we had so-and-so shoot our wedding. That can be interpreted as a snob value, where the couple or client has no appreciation of the photographer's abilities or artistic interpretation. A bit like having Ansel Adams photographing your back yard because "I've heard he's good at Landscapes". :suspect:

Where does that leave the 'ordinary' photographer in the street? Dunno really :shrug: I know there are lots of people offering their services as Wedding Photographers, grafters. Doing an honest day's work for a reasonable rate. Then there are those that haven't clue and are offering tripe for an exhorbitant rate. Other's still that climb on an artistic band-wagon and attract a client base in a 'blind' socialite world.

I do like Jeff's work and it's not too dissimilar from what Marianne has done. But to place yourself in the marketplace and get yourself known is a different ball game. The cultural angle is so far different in say, Los Angeles compared to the East of London - the social photographic expectations are as different as chalk and cheese!
 
I've not looked at the link as yet, but this guy is clearly well known and highly sought after in his field. So, do you perhaps have a situation where, with no slight intended to anyone on here "doing weddings" - perhaps he's reached the point of being able to say to people "this is what I do" and most standard wedding photographers simply aren't sought after enough outside their own circle to be able to do that? It's sort of like in the dog showing world - the top handlers can wait for the owners to come to them, at which point they say "I do this, I'll take the dog on if you do that, that and that, and my charges are this" - and because they have the name and reputation to back that brashness up, they do well from working that way. :shrug:
 
Chuckles, my point was not where Jeff comes from, but where Jeff works. He's not a jet-setting international guy. He works almost exclusively in the UK, and mostly not too far from his home. He's not somewhere in the middle of NYC pulling that clientele.

- CJ
 
Forgive what's likely to become a long post.

If there's one thing I have harped on while teaching workshops the last four years, it is this: do what you love, do it well, and build your clientele accordingly.

Sounds simple, and it is, sort of.

Many, many photographers feel they have to do what the client expects. For some, that means becoming a jack of all trades, shooting families, product stills, weddings, children, models, events and everything else. That's all well and good, if you really, really want to do all those things. More often than not, though, the photographer feels they have to take what they're given, accept every job, and/or do those jobs in exactly the way the clients asks them to do it.

A lot of photographers don't feel it's their place to say no to a client. It's considered arrogant, or brash. In reality, I see it as a responsibility. The client knows my work and has hired me to produce images consistent with the ones that led them to call me. They don't know how I produce what I produce, they only know the end result. It's my job to do what I need to do to give them the kind of work they expect from me. It's NOT my job to do every little thing they suggest. The end result will not be what they expect.

I think it's a gross underestimation of potential clients to assume that they can't understand and grasp the value of what we want to do. They just need to know why what you do is valuable. If you want to shoot differently than the rest of the pack, you'll need to create and educate your own market. Don't just tell them WHAT you do, explain WHY you do it, and WHY it's valuable. And yes, the work needs to be great. When I started doing children's photography, I was told that I would not be successful because parents didn't want to see dark or serious images of their kids. Oh, and my lighting was too dramatic. ;)

Of the many, many photographers I've advised to only show and offer the work they are passionate about, almost all of them have experienced a noteable increase in clients, sales, and most importantly, job satisfaction.

know there are lots of people offering their services as Wedding Photographers, grafters. Doing an honest day's work for a reasonable rate. Then there are those that haven't clue and are offering tripe for an exhorbitant rate. Other's still that climb on an artistic band-wagon and attract a client base in a 'blind' socialite world.

And there are others who shoot true to their own, unique style, and attract clients of a wide variety of backgrounds who are moved by their work. Those photographers may make a lot of money, or they may make a modest living, but they enjoy what they do tremendously.
 
well I get the impression you are young but very confident, that's all....

Chuckles is not having a go at you, he is just stating a point of view...
 
Marianne, I didn't say Chuckles was having a go at me. I was addressing something I see as a chronic issue amongst photographers. I hate to see anyone assuming they can't do what they love because people won't like it.

My confidence is based on being very successful in what I've done, as well as having the privilege of helping many other photographers become highly successful.

This is me:

http://www.cheryljacobsworkshops.com
http://www.cheryljacobsportraits.com
http://www.cheryljacobsphotography.com
 
thanks for the links Cheryl, your work is indeed very special and beautiful...well done you!
 
Marianne, I didn't say Chuckles was having a go at me. I was addressing something I see as a chronic issue amongst photographers. I hate to see anyone assuming they can't do what they love because people won't like it.

My confidence is based on being very successful in what I've done, as well as having the privilege of helping many other photographers become highly successful.

This is me:

http://www.cheryljacobsworkshops.com
http://www.cheryljacobsportraits.com
http://www.cheryljacobsphotography.com

I've seen your work before, I'm sure. Its fantastic. In this day n age its hard to shoot kids but you do it so well. I agree with what you're saying about educating people. Clients hire a photographer and all they want is photos. They don't know about model release forms, licensing, production times, and all that but its how you work so you need to bring them up to speed. Its the same when I was in web design. Its one of the things I hated working at the place I worked. The customer *was* always right and so while I was 5 years ahead of our client base I couldn't do anything. There are plenty of market leading web design companies who do. They get noticed because they're doing something different, and doing it bloody well. Jeff's clearly a brilliant photographer and if I read right he does 40 a year. Clearly theres a market in the UK for his style of work. I had a meeting with my client yesterday for Friday's wedding. They hired me because they loved my documentary work but they did provide a list of shots they want which is fair enough. Its their wedding day so I'll bank those shots in 2 sessions hopefully and spend the rest of the time doing what I do best.
 
A friend used this company, diamondpd, back in October for their wedding outside Boston , Mass. Check out how much they charge!!!!! Our friend had the top package but had to wait nearly 4 months to finally get her hands on the photos!!!! Not what I'd want if I was paying $9000!!!!

Their work is nice though.
 
I have a wedding to shoot at the end of August so I went looking for inspirations on the net and came across this, if there ever of a collection of perfect photojournalism with wedding this is it.

http://www.jeffascough.net/main.html

I am gobsmacked at some of the images he captured...I would be over the moon getting 1/10 of those come August.

I was an usher at a recent wedding and found this guy to be really good. He did the whole day with a mix of both formal and reportage stuff.

First time I've seen a photographer pull out a fisheye lens and use it for varying shots.

David Woodings
 
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