Wedding Photography and Moral Implications of 'Licences'

joescrivens said:
What do you do next?
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That would of course then depend on what exactly they have done to the image. If the images was made to look so terrible i would remind them of the license terms and that they are not to modify the image. Its really not a big deal. To do this would be a rare occasion as most people do not crop there profile images anyway anymore and even if they did most will not totally ruin the image with a simple crop. Controling licening terms is not really hard or something clients really worry about.
 
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asphotographymk said:
That would of course then depend on what exactly they have done to the image. If the images was made to look so terrible i would remind them of the license terms and that they are not to modify the image.
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so now you end up putting someones nose out of joint and when people ask that question:

"Who was your wedding photographer?"

The reply comes back "Andy, but he was a right arse, wouldn't even let me crop an image on facebook"

That is much more likely outcome than someone looking at the crop and stating they'll never use you because they saw a cropped photo that didn't look great in your own opinion

asphotographymk said:
Its really not a big deal. To do this would be a rare occasion as most people do not crop there profile images anyway anymore and even if they did most will not totally ruin the image with a simple crop. Controling licening terms is not really hard or something clients really worry about.
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BINGO!!! finally you get my point

the fact is the kinds of edits people are doing are not ruining the image, so why are people in this thread getting soooooo paranoid and upset over the concept of it?
 
joescrivens said:
BINGO!!! finally you get my point

the fact is the kinds of edits people are doing are not ruining the image, so why are people in this thread getting soooooo paranoid and upset over the concept of it?
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Because even if you never use it having the right and ability to hold some type of control over the modifications protects the photographer. A little like insurance, you may never need it but you should always have it.
 
asphotographymk said:
Because even if you never use it having the right and ability to hold some type of control over the modifications protects the photographer. A little like insurance, you may never need it but you should always have it.
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let me ask you this.

How many of your clients directly ask or are directly told they cannot make any edits to their photo's which includes cropping when creating a profile pic on facebook.

I mean i'm sure it's in the small print, but do they actually ask if they can, and if not when you discuss the contract with them do you point it out to them?
 
joescrivens said:
I can see nearly all of what you said richard apart from this part.

I just think people have paranoia that this is going to happen, but in the real world as Phil V stated it's not going to happen.

But you're right it's not copyright that people need it's:

the ability to print as many photos to whatever size
the ability to give as many copies to whomever they want for personal use
the ability to showcase online wherever they want, like facebook and twitter
to make derivative works like gift cards and calendars for personal use
Make slideshows and include in youtube home movies they make

and lastly

to be able to edit the pic for these purposes (99% are only going to crop, put a border or turn to black and white)

if they can do all of these things, and they do them anyway you just never hear about it, then to them they consider that they own the pics, and everyones happy.
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And.. that's exactly what a well worded licence grants them, and pretty much what I grant my customers

I retain the copyright, the customer is given a licence where they can basically use the images as they see fit, for non commercial purposes

If I flip it about, I could ask the question.. why does someone need the copyright as opposed to a properly licenced image? The answer to that question, if properly answered will give away the exact reason why I must retain it
 
Richard King said:
And.. that's exactly what a well worded licence grants them, and pretty much what I grant my customers

I retain the copyright, the customer is given a licence where they can basically use the images as they see fit, for non commercial purposes

If I flip it about, I could ask the question.. why does someone need the copyright as opposed to a properly licenced image? The answer to that question, if properly answered will give away the exact reason why I must retain it
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can't disagree with that!

if thats what you offer than i think you have it spot on.

It's andy's example where he won't even allow a simple facebook profile crop without sending an updated file which is ridiculous
 
joescrivens said:
can't disagree with that!

if thats what you offer than i think you have it spot on.

It's andy's example where he won't even allow a simple facebook profile crop without sending an updated file which is ridiculous
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That is what I offer

I am unusual, I actually edit ALL the images from a wedding, the client gets the complete set

I wonder if the negativity starts with the fact that often only a handful of images are properly edited, where the issue of "handing over all of the files" leaves the photographer in rather an exposed position?
 
neil_g said:
i dont think andy is saying that though. only if the crop dramatically effects the image in question, which i think is fair enough.
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I have some sympathy with this.. hence my phrase "properly worded" licence
 
neil_g said:
i dont think andy is saying that though. only if the crop dramatically effects the image in question, which i think is fair enough.
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well he mentioned nothing about whether he liked the crop or not when he said he does it, see post 29

asphotographymk said:
As for a crop, if i see a client has cropped an image on facebook (and i am connected with almost all of my clients who have facebook) then i will simply send them a file to them dimensions and ask them to use that file. The client will always thank me for my help as that is how i "sell it" that i am helping them not the other way around.
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andy, will you always send them a crop or only if it dramatically effects the image in question, because above it sounded like you'll send them a crop regardless and then if they refuse that crop the next step will depend on whether the crop ruins the image or not.
 
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joescrivens said:
It's andy's example where he won't even allow a simple facebook profile crop without sending an updated file which is ridiculous
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to be fair he did say "if the image was made to look terrible" - so 99% of the time it would never come up

also why would the client prefer to have to faff about cropping an resizing images for facebook rather than recieve a second cd of fabulous looking web ready jpgs
 
Just to chip in a final comment

This is to do with educating the customer

If I say to a customer... the images on this disk are profiled to XYZ lab, that starts a discussion, where the customer then starts to appreciate the efforts you make. I have even had customers come back and ask for me to supply a set profiled to a different lab

You can then have the discussion about the difference between cheap printing and archival quality printing. I even have customers come back and order prints, even though they have the same files that I do, because they appreciate that the prints from a "pro" lab will be better and last longer

Again, I encourage my customers to come back to me if they want an edit done, and occasionally they do comeback for a B&W conversion. I did the last one for free, and booked the christening shoot for the first child at the same time

- You can shoot, burn and run
- you can shoot burn and be stuffy
- Or you can shoot, edit burn and educate and keep a dialogue going with the customer

One approach will bring you more business in the long run
 
The other point vis assigning the full copyright to clients (as UG and ffyon are suggesting) is that the client could then sell/give the images to a third party or even a stock library , and you could wind up with wannabe wedding photographers using your shots to illustrate their sites without any ability to stop them

its not that likely but it does happen - vis that guy the other day who had a weddings site built entirely out of stock and lifted pictures.
 
neil_g said:
yet in post 81 he goes on to suggest what i said above.
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no in post 81 he said that he'd be sending them an edit regardless, but that if they refused the edit THEN depending on what the edit was like, i.e. IF it was ruining the photo he'd then either do something or nothing.

post 81 is all about what he'd do next once the edit was refused if you look at his quote
 
joescrivens said:
well he mentioned nothing about whether he liked the crop or not when he said he does it, see post 29



andy, will you always send them a crop or only if it dramatically effects the image in question, because above it sounded like you'll send them a crop regardless and then if they refuse that crop the next step will depend on whether the crop ruins the image or not.
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I think i have made it very clear that this would not always be needed. Again being pulled up for not saying everything in one single post :bonk:.

As i said its like insurance, you may never use it but not having it there as a back up would be very silly. If a facebook crop looks ok then who cares if it looks terrible then dropping them a messege saying here is a ready cropped image could you please use this one, it works better becasue of X Y Z here have the file free of charge.

Richard King said:
Just to chip in a final comment

This is to do with educating the customer


- Or you can shoot, edit burn and educate and keep a dialogue going with the customer

One approach will bring you more business in the long run
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Richard you have got it spot on there. If you have good communication with your clients and educate them these problems will not come up. I also often provide small edits for free and my clients are always happy with the extra help they are given when it comes to edits. Its also about how you sell it, most people will feel like they are getting an extra service not that they are being controlled.
 
big soft moose said:
to be fair he did say "if the image was made to look terrible" - so 99% of the time it would never come up

also why would the client prefer to have to faff about cropping an resizing images for facebook rather than recieve a second cd of fabulous looking web ready jpgs
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have you ever used facebook?

The first thing that happens when you upload an image as a profile pic it gives you crop handles and tells you to crop, in fact it automatically gives a suggested crop and you have to pull the handles out to upload the full pic, it's actually easier to select a cropped image for your profile than it is to choose the whole image as it is less steps. But it's hardly a faff at all, you just move four handles and press ok
 
joescrivens said:
no in post 81 he said that he'd be sending them an edit regardless, but that if they refused the edit THEN depending on what the edit was like, i.e. IF it was ruining the photo he'd then either do something or nothing.

post 81 is all about what he'd do next once the edit was refused if you look at his quote
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thats the way i read it, andy will have to clarify..
 
joescrivens said:
no in post 81 he said that he'd be sending them an edit regardless, but that if they refused the edit THEN depending on what the edit was like, i.e. IF it was ruining the photo he'd then either do something or nothing.

post 81 is all about what he'd do next once the edit was refused if you look at his quote
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Can I suggest that you and Andy get a room (or a cage :lol: ) , as the continual sniping is getting tedious - you're both big boys so perhaps you could sort out whatever your problem is with him mano et mano
 
joescrivens said:
have you ever used facebook?

The first thing that happens when you upload an image as a profile pic it gives you crop handles and tells you to crop, in fact it automatically gives a suggested crop and you have to pull the handles out to upload the full pic, it's actually easier to select a cropped image for your profile than it is to choose the whole image as it is less steps. But it's hardly a faff at all, you just move four handles and press ok
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Again in my experience most people tend to use the whole image anyway.
 
big soft moose said:
Can I suggest that you and Andy get a room (or a cage :lol: ) , as the continual sniping is getting tedious - you're both big boys so perhaps you could sort out whatever your problem is with him mano et mano
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only my wife is allowed to call me a big boy!:lol:
 
joescrivens said:
have you ever used facebook?

The first thing that happens when you upload an image as a profile pic it gives you crop handles and tells you to crop, in fact it automatically gives a suggested crop and you have to pull the handles out to upload the full pic, it's actually easier to select a cropped image for your profile than it is to choose the whole image as it is less steps. But it's hardly a faff at all, you just move four handles and press ok
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have you ever tried to upload a 4.5mb tiff to facebook - chances are good it would crash or reject the image - you need a resized file saved as a jpeg before you upload, so if one thats the right size is provided ready cropped it would be easier to upload that and just select the whole image.
 
big soft moose said:
have you ever tried to upload a 4.5mb tiff to facebook - chances are good it would crash or reject the image - you need a resized file saved as a jpeg before you upload, so if one thats the right size is provided ready cropped it would be easier to upload that and just select the whole image.
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what are you talking about? It's nothing to do with the size. Upload a 50kb file as your profile pic it will still crop it for you. It doesn't offer the crop because it detects too big a file, it just automatically asks you to crop. watch this, i just did it:

[YOUTUBE]Ic7eAVUxVs0[/YOUTUBE]


When people create a profile pic they often just zoom in square to the face because very often when they make comments etc the whole pic doesn't show and then you only see part of it, so its common for people to crop, plus the fact it's more work to drag the handles all the way out than it is to just leave them, people are lazy
 
joescrivens said:
that's fine,

so you do allow people to edit your pics for facebook, and only send them an updated one if they have made it look terrible?
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My usage agreement is clear and allows use for print and web with no modifications. So officially this includes cropping the image. Would i jump right on a client for an ok looking crop, no i have bigger things to worry about. I would use reasonable judgment based on the individual situation. As i said most (infact all that i have seen) of my clients use the full image for there profile image, most will use the smaller watermarked images i provide in a folder named "facebook".
 
Or...

Say to the customer... this disk contains a file full of images is optimised for facebook. Tell me which one you want as a profile picture, I will re-size it especially for you, so that it looks really superb for you
 
joescrivens said:
what are you talking about? It's nothing to do with the size. Upload a 50kb file as your profile pic it will still crop it for you. It doesn't offer the crop because it detects too big a file, it just automatically asks you to crop. watch this, i just did it:
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I take it you mean a 50mb file - 50kb is tiny , that aside you must have a very fast broadband connection - i know for a fact that if i tried to upload a 50mb file the application would crash.


joescrivens said:
people are lazy
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exactly - so why would they not prefer you to do the work for them as andy and richard suggest ?
 
big soft moose said:
I take it you mean a 50mb file - 50kb is tiny , that aside you must have a very fast broadband connection - i know for a fact that if i tried to upload a 50mb file the application would crash.
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no i meant 50kb.

and I think you are not understanding me. Watch the video, i'm saying it doesn't matter at all about the size of the file you upload or if it is already cropped or not, facebook will crop it anyway EVERY time whether you want it to or not. It can be 50mb, 50kb, 5mb or 500mb, it's irrelevant

It's then up to you to Uncrop it as you can see in the video i showed.

It's less work to crop than it is to not crop


big soft moose said:
exactly - so why would they not prefer you to do the work for them as andy and richard suggest ?
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like i said above, because it is actually more work for people when setting a pic as a profile pic to NOT crop. did you see in my video? the first thing facebook does is crop it.

you made out like it was some huge faff to crop your pic, but actually it's easier to crop it than uncrop.

and richards suggestion about providing a profile crop if fine, but he's still deciding how it should be cropped, when i want to decide since it is my facebook page and not his. I want the portion of the pic I decide is the part i want exposed as my profile, not someone else.
 
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Richard King said:
Or...

Say to the customer... this disk contains a file full of images is optimised for facebook. Tell me which one you want as a profile picture, I will re-size it especially for you, so that it looks really superb for you
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Yep 100% agree. That way you are giving the customer extra service. Its all about communication and how you sell it :rules:
 
i think ive lost the point of this discussion.. if facebook crops EVERY time, how is the crop you supply going to help? even if you supply the customers ideal crop theyll still have to drag the box out.

im confused.
 
neil_g said:
i think ive lost the point of this discussion.. if facebook crops EVERY time, how is the crop you supply going to help? even if you supply the customers ideal crop theyll still have to drag the box out.

im confused.
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not only that but who decides it is an ideal crop? Just because to the photographers eye it is doesn't mean it's how the customer might want their individual profile pic to look, and this takes us back to the beginning which is that people want more control than they used to because they are using the content in different mediums.

and if they are anything like my sister they change their profile pic every other day, you'd have to provide her with a facebook profile crop of every single shot!
 
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joescrivens said:
no i meant 50kb.

and I think you are not understanding me. Watch the video, i'm saying it doesn't matter at all about the size of the file you upload or if it is already cropped or not, facebook will crop it anyway EVERY time whether you want it to or not. It can be 50mb, 50kb, 5mb or 500mb, it's irrelevant

It's then up to you to Uncrop it as you can see in the video i showed.

It's less work to crop than it is to not crop
.
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how hard is it to drag four little handles out - takes all of ten seconds

that aside you arent understanding me my point is that if a tog only supplies print ready files, then the uploaded file would be huge and probably not upload at all , unless the client first resized it in a photo editor

therefore if a tog also supplys smaller web ready files it would make a lot more sense for the client to use them - and the chances of them applying a bad crop rather than dragging out the handles is not great

also i'm not sure how we got onto talking about profile pics - most people will want to upload a gallery of their wedding shots to facebook , not just use one as their profile shot, and for that it again makes a lot more sense to use the web ready files provided by a tog rather than having t faff about resizing the large files.
 
big soft moose said:
how hard is it to drag four little handles out - takes all of ten seconds

that aside you arent understanding me my point is that if a tog only supplies print ready files, then the uploaded file would be huge and probably not upload at all , unless the client first resized it in a photo editor

therefore if a tog also supplys smaller web ready files it would make a lot more sense for the client to use them - and the chances of them applying a bad crop rather than dragging out the handles is not great

also i'm not sure how we got onto talking about profile pics - most people will want to upload a gallery of their wedding shots to facebook , not just use one as their profile shot, and for that it again makes a lot more sense to use the web ready files provided by a tog rather than having t faff about resizing the large files.
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i don't know what your point it.

Photographers should provide web ready shots? Is that it?

If so, why are you making that point, thats already been covered and agreed, you won't hear me disagreeing with that. But providing web ready shots is irrelevant to the point I am making about the customer wanting to crop their own photo - I don't care that you've cropped it for me, it's not the crop i want for my profile pic.

you've totally lost me.
 
joescrivens said:
I don't care that you've cropped it for me, it's not the crop i want for my profile pic.
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so we're back to what andy said originally - by his licence the client technically can't, but unless they make it look horiible hes not bothered - if they do make it look horrible then he'll make them a nice one of the same crop and ask them to use that instead.

by my licence they can crop it if they want - I dont care , especially as profile pics arent credited anyway so if they **** it up no one will know I took the original, rather than uncle bob

by Tog X's licence it may be different again

you could ask 100 different togs and get 100 different variations - but so long as we all make the client aware of the licence terms pre-shoot i cant see its a problem as the client makes an informed choice.
 
joescrivens said:
so phil V is incorrect then when he said you need a license to make derivative works in order to create your own calendar, mug, tshirt, or whatever for personal use?



Well then it's not a yes it's a no, I wasn't talking about you as the photographer selling me your gift cards, I'm talking about a part of your website where people can do this themselves like in iPhoto, which is what I originally said in post 71. You still get creative control because you can provide a selection of templates to choose from.

It's only a tacky DIY site if you design it that way, if you design a professional tool then that's what it would be.
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I don't mind being quoted in my absence, particularly as I'm always right;)
But it wasn't me who mentioned 'derivitive works'*. As I understand what that means, and it doesn't mean that if you buy a licence to print from me that a mug or t shirt would automatically be derivitive works. However a Montage poster just might be. But as I also said earlier, it's not really in the photographers interest to crack down on a breach of this scale unless there was a genuine risk to his/her reputation.

But I feel I need to make a point here regarding non-core products, how many photographers could genuinely afford to invest in a bespoke site to enable the designing of this type of merchandise?
My guess would be that it'd cost thousands to build properly and so it'd take years to breakeven. We're running a business here, and we have to balance what we'd like to give our customers with putting food on the table.

Thankyou cards aren't an easy sell with a decent markup because they're not cheap products even at trade prices. Even at a markup of £50** per wedding, at 20 weddings a year (which would be a hard sell for most photographers) you'd be looking at between 2 and 5 years for a breakeven, that's without any reinvestment - all sites look tired after a while.

Compare this to partnering up with a supplier, where this could quite easily be integrated, not quite so polished, but a saving that most businesses will see as a no brainer.

*btw I think the first attribution of derivative works was Alistair, I haven't checked his understanding, I'm not apportioning blame for the misrepresentation of the term.

** and how many wedding customers will be happy to spend £100+ for a set of ThankYou cards?
 
big soft moose said:
you could ask 100 different togs and get 100 different variations - but so long as we all make the client aware of the licence terms pre-shoot i cant see its a problem as the client makes an informed choice.
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do they really understand though?

Like does anyone actually say to them "Oh and you can't change the pics, not even on facebook, like making a crop or changing it to black and white"

I mean, i'm sure there's a line in the contract but doesn anyone ask if they could do something like this or do the togs explicitly say this.

I would imagine there are brides all over the country that signed an agreement that said they couldn't edit etc but did so anyway because they just assume they can and the photographer never finds out anyway because they aren't facebook friends.
 
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