We Need To Get Real

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EdBray said:
It's a bit like willies! It's not what you've got. but how you use it, although having extra length and width may make the job easier!
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Can I nominate this for 'Quote of the Year 2010'

Back on track, I can see both sides of this discussion, on the one hand some shots are technically very good but the equipment could be lacking in certain circumstances, bad light mainly. On the other, my kit is by no means at any 'pro' level but I'm starting to learn which conditions suit it better.
 
PaulF said:
on the one hand some shots are technically very good but the equipment could be lacking in certain circumstances, bad light mainly. .
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thats it yes... however it can be taken to extremes.. I ahve been in conditions where I know for example anything less than iso 12800 and f1.8 wont hack it at all ie no shots..
 
Personally I just want a DSLR with a 50 prime. So I'm jealous of everyone, wish these shops werent so interested in money, lol.

Think the OP was just fed up with people saying that the only way to get good photos is top of the range kit. Maybe he should look at it another way, big compliment, only thing limiting your shots is equipment.
 
I'm rather ambivalent about all this. I'm not a sports shooter. I probably wouldn't be mostly using a 5D if I were :D

dazzajl said:
Anyone who says you need the latest and fastest gear to achieve is talking out of their backside. The skill that comes from practice is a far greater asset on most jobs than FPS or megapixies.

Fast AF is good though I do agree on that but then again there is little faster than something like a canon 1DII and that's not too costly these days.
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The flipside of this is that I think it is reasonable to recognise that you do need somewhere close to the right equipment to do specific jobs.

Shooting football action shots with a 5x4 view camera or a 110 Kodak Instamatic would be, how shall I say? - tricky. It might perhaps be an interesting artistic experiment, but the results certainly wouldn't be what most people associate with a genre. A 600mm f/4.0L IS lens is equally unlikely to be of much use for photographing a registry office wedding.

There's obviously a big grey area in between...

Arkady said:
Stop bleating - sell the wife and kids to Romanian Gypsies and buy a 1DS-IV - your photos are rubbish without it, you know...
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C'mon Rob. Who shoots sports seriously with a 1Ds? :D ;)
 
KIPAX said:
Nope... i firmly believe that you do need the equipment... I see a lot of people posting in sports section.. whats wrong with the pictures they ask? well they ahve good composition.. have cropped well so can see the picture.. grabbed the action.. good postioning.. good background.... everything they could do is done right...nothing wrong wiht them as a photogrpaher... but the reason the pic doesnt quite make it is because the equipment isnt up to it..

For example a 100-400 at the long end is f5.6 and the reason it doesnt pop is others are at 400 shooting f2.8 ... everythings right about the picture but it doesnt have it because its mixed in with the bqackground at f5.6

Ice hockey.. basketball... great positiong.. great action.. but lens or ISO not up to the job... better photographers than me taking poor shots because they progressed but there equipment didnt..
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Hmmm, interesting - I've never looked at it like that before. So if I invest in a 1D MkIV and some fast glass I'll be as good as you? Hey, I think I might even be better! Thanks for spilling the secret of your success. :D
 
I agree wholeheartedly. Talking about the competition leaving you behind is absolutely correct if your livelihood depends upon it, but I'm guessing that rules out 90% of TP's membership; otherwise we're all guilty of 'forum hysteria' at times.

There's a good argument, on the other hand, which says 'no point buying a D3s if you can't shoot pictures like this on a 7 year old Canon powershot'....

http://photo.net/photodb/presentation?presentation_id=317651


We're all guilty of succumbing to sales tactics. Oooh, it has ISO 102,000 and 10fps.... just in case I ever need to take 1000 shots of the family cat in under 2 minutes at night! And 51-point auto tracking AF with continuous micro-adjustment... for shots of hills and lakes! I'll take two!
 
Interesting thread and I can appreciate both sides to the argument.

I think it comes down to the amateur vs professional split. If I were a professional, then there's no question that I would feel the need to have cutting edge kit to maintain my livelihood, at least it would be a tax deductible business expense too. As an amateur, I'm relatively satisfied with 3.5 fps and 210mm f/4.5 for the few bits of tennis I shoot.

However, as Kipax pointed out, I'd have much better subject isolation with larger aperture lenses and a higher frame rate would lead to a greater keeper rate of shots with the ball in play.
 
Voyager said:
I'd like to hear a coherent argument against that. :D

If you can't shoot good pictures with a cheap compact you are wasting money imagining that you will get better ones on a more expensive camera.
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So true, I cringe when i consider what i have spent on photography. I know for a fact that many people can produce better photos than me with a point and shoot.
 
Voyager said:
I'd like to hear a coherent argument against that. :D

If you can't shoot good pictures with a cheap compact you are wasting money imagining that you will get better ones on a more expensive camera.
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I think that whatever you can do on a cheap DSLR with a cheap lens or indeed a P&S compact etc, you can definitely do better with an expensive DSLR and an expensive lens.....:shrug:

Rubbish user + rubbish gear = Rubbish photos

Rubbish user + expensive gear = Less rubbish photos

Talented user + rubbish gear = Good results

Talented user + expensive gear = Even better results!! :thumbs:

Or something like that....:nuts:
 
Are you saying, that I with my humble 50D and 20-30 year old MF lenses, cannot make good photographs? Are you also saying, 10, 20 or 30 (and more) years ago nobody could take good photographs?

Maybe I've been deluding myself :thinking: I may as well pack up now 'cos I know I can't afford 'better' kit for a long time yet. :bonk:
 
dubcat said:
So true, I cringe when i consider what i have spent on photography. I know for a fact that many people can produce better photos than me with a point and shoot.
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It's fine spending money, collecting kit and enjoying it. It gives a lot of people a lot of pleasure.

But it isn't the kit that makes you a better photographer - it's you.
 
Slimbert said:
I think that whatever you can do on a cheap DSLR with a cheap lens or indeed a P&S compact etc, you can definitely do better with an expensive DSLR and an expensive lens.....:shrug:
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Can you define exactly what you mean by 'do better' and what do you think 'an expensive DSLR' and an 'expensive lens' are?
 
Ste Manns said:
Are you saying, that I with my humble 50D and 20-30 year old MF lenses, cannot make good photographs?
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Depends how talented a photographer you are.....:thumbs: If your photos are rubbish, it's because you're rubbish, it has nothing to do with the gear.....;)
 
OK, we've had this thread time and time again (usually from the same couple of people)...let's say this straight off...there are those "for" gear and those "against" gear.

I'm "for" whatever gets me the best results for the least money. Of my current gear, only my 30D is owned from new.

Now that we've got that out of the way...there are a number of occasions when you will need the large aperture fast glass and high ISO capable bodies. Sport is one of those times (and thank goodness - you mentioned it already!).

I was quite happy using my 350D and a 100-300 f/4 lens...I got shots published and they were good. Then, I started doing floodlit games, the ISO1600 combined with the f/4 aperture started holding me back. I got a 30D which went to 3200 (but was very noisy - however it was there if I needed it). Still wasn't entirely happy - I still wasnt able to freeze the action at f/4, ISO3200 and shutter of 1/250 (let's just say - Rodney Parade in Newport is a dungeon). So I saved, and bought a 300L f/2.8. Cracking lens, and it was great up until the 30D stopped working on ISO3200...then we were back to the same problem. ISO1600 and f/2.8 wasnt enough. I bought a battered 1DmkII which meant I could actually do some work. I then went on to get the 1.4x converter, which allowed me more focal length and reach with the 1.3 crop on the mkII. Then it became a problem as we were back to f/4. I wasnt happy with the background seperation for daylight games and the ISO performance for night games. So, eventually, I found an extra £1000, sold the 300L and bought a 400L f/2.8 for a decent sum of cash.

So, yeah, I spent a lot of cash on gear, BUT...when you're working in competition with other people and they have clean shots at f/2.8 with a lower ISO (and therefore less noise)...they will get the usage, and I wouldn't. Unfortunate, as sometimes my shots were better...but technically inferior.

Carp situation, but if you want the sales then you have to upgrade. If you're doing this for yourself, as a hobby - then by all means stay with the 350D and 100-300 f/4...it'll get you great shots and costs less than the mkIII body alone cost.
 
KIPAX said:
if your shooting a plant pot on somebodies window ledge
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Indeed... oh and also I'd add its also not funny when you have one crack at it and you have to hit that moment. Hamilton won't cross that line at the British GP again, not even if you ask him nicely and some football bloke won't kick the other one in the heart again just because your AF couldn't lock on in the gloom of the South African stadium.

Thats the difference - the best gear gives you more chance of success and you need every chance to capture the key moments in sports. Coming away with one or two sharp photos is fine if they are the one or two sharp photos of the right moment, but without technical consistency thats like playing spin the bottle.

But of course, none of this matters to the amateur because its not critical (ie what you have been contracted to deliver and needs to compete with other agency submissions to be chosen) that you capture those sporting moments. Likely as not you (the amateur) aren't in the right place to get the shot anyway - its quite possible the media tog isn't too LOL :thumbs: but you have to do everything you can to maximise your chances.

Thats the truth of the matter and remains the truth despite the threads that try to tell you otherwise.
 
Voyager said:
Can you define exactly what you mean by 'do better' and what do you think 'an expensive DSLR' and an 'expensive lens' are?
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Voyager said:
It's fine spending money, collecting kit and enjoying it. It gives a lot of people a lot of pleasure.
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And can you define exactly what you mean by "It's" and "."?

There's always at least one Pedant, and it's nearly always you.....:shake:

Anyway, just for the record, by "do better", I mean take better photos. I guess "better" is subjective and isn't definable so make of that what you will, but I know what I meant! :thumbs: By "expensive", I loosely meant "Pro" gear, D3 (inc the s and x models), D700, 1D3, 1D4 etc etc.....

I'd say overall, in any given range or category, equipment that is in the top 10-20% of the price range, is the expensive stuff.....obviously this is ball park and again subjective.
 
exactly the same with weddings - you (unlike your previous life Nigel) can't stick a medium format on a tripod at 1/8 from the other end of a church and hope to get away with it. Expectations have changed amongst clients and what was OK even 10 years ago won't cut it now, and if I can't shoot good noise free images in a dark church or provide the days shots that are expected they'll just go to someone who can. That means that quite simply I need to worry about getting the photographs, not worrying if my kit is up to the job.
 
fracster said:
But Sports togging is easy, like motorsport, you know where the action is coming from, can prefocus and then pray and spray................:coat:
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Well, to be honest I call it documentary photography, where everything is presented to you and you just have to record it, so sport, candid etc. To be honest, I much prefer that to other forms of photography that I have to 'manage' such as portraits, weddings etc
 
Byker28i said:
Well, to be honest I call it documentary photography, where everything is presented to you and you just have to record it, so sport, candid etc.
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Yes, its all documentary - you are just an onlooker looking for the moment in time to freeze.

BTW I can't be doing with posed stuff either - everytime I fail LOL :shrug:
 
I have 2 400d bodies, 2 standard 18 55 lenses, 28 105 usm and sigma 70 300 apo, top of the range not by a long shot, however I have had 3 front covers of a national magazine.

So it is definitley not about the kit, its what you do with it:)
 
SNG60007 said:
I have 2 400d bodies, 2 standard 18 55 lenses, 28 105 usm and sigma 70 300 apo, top of the range not by a long shot, however I have had 3 front covers of a national magazine.

So it is definitley not about the kit, its what you do with it:)
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Well done Nigel you are proof positive that talent will always win out although others will no doubt say that with a 5D and L lenses you would have had 10 national magazine covers
 
Sigh.....

Yes boys, having the right tools for the job and always having the latest version of kit is the same thing. That's exactly what I meant when answering the OP.

Clearly if you shoot sports, you need a fast and long lens. If you shoot architecture, wide is good. Studio work, you need lights. BUT.... does it always have to be the newest and most expensive kit? I don't think so.

I stay ahead of the competition, maintain and and expand my client base quite nicely and I do this by keeping on top of all areas of quality. If kit needs to be upgraded, it will be but not just because something faster or more sparkly is released.
 
SNG60007 said:
I have 2 400d bodies, 2 standard 18 55 lenses, 28 105 usm and sigma 70 300 apo, top of the range not by a long shot, however I have had 3 front covers of a national magazine.
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Of what publications Nigel? What was the subject?

How many other published images do you get each week?

Not being funny... :thumbs:
 
Arkady said:
Stop bleating - sell the wife and kids to Romanian Gypsies and buy a 1DS-IV - your photos are rubbish without it, you know...
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Rob, I think you need to sit down with a glass of your favourite - you've just advised someone to buy a C#n#n!

Newest, fastest kit? Not for me! I could afford a D3s or x if I wanted to and could get the f/2.8 Nikon lenses to match the Sigma f/2.8 ones I can justify to myself BUT there are other things to life and I don't need 24 MP or 10 fps to feed myself, pay the mortgage and school fees and put fuel in the vehicles. Some people DO need those things and some people need the ruggedness that top end pro gear has.

I quite deliberately don't know how much my kit's worth all together, just like I haven't measured my willie since it started getting hairy - I'm told I use it very well and that's the most important thing!

Enjoy your kit whatever you do with it and however much it cost you.
 
Nod said:
Rob, I think you need to sit down with a glass of your favourite - you've just advised someone to buy a C#n#n!.
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We need to have someone to look down on or feel sorry for...makes us feel better about ourselves...:D
 
It's a strange one, I personally am a kit whore... I love the latest gadgets as I work in the technology field and that's something I'm passionate about.

Do I think having expensive kit will make me a good photographer - no.

Do I want the best kit possible on my budget so that when I do become a good photographer (crossed fingers) my images will look the very best they can - yes.

Do I work hard to pay for my kit - yes.

Do I go without to pay for my kit - yes (I don't smoke, I don't drink, and I don't have a car, and I am not running around in the latest fashions).
 
SNG60007 said:
I have 2 400d bodies, 2 standard 18 55 lenses, 28 105 usm and sigma 70 300 apo, top of the range not by a long shot, however I have had 3 front covers of a national magazine.

So it is definitley not about the kit, its what you do with it:)
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Come with me next saturday night to the MMA cage fight event.. no flash shoot through cage and see if you can even get a shot... or come to my first ice hockey game and see if you can get anything wiht that kit... no.. forget all that.. basketball in a sports hall.. STOP .. how about a soccerdome 5 aside pitch... iso 12800 and f1.8 at shutter speeds so slow you really have to be good at what your doing..

Like I say.. point anyhting at a plant pot on a nice day and you will get a pic..

Oh and while we are willy waving.. I get at least 20 pics a week published... thats every week.
 
KIPAX said:
Come with me next saturday night to the MMA cage fight event.. no flash shoot through cage and see if you can even get a shot... or come to my first ice hockey game and see if you can get anything wiht that kit... no.. forget all that.. basketball in a sports hall.. STOP .. how about a soccerdome 5 aside pitch... iso 12800 and f1.8 at shutter speeds so slow you really have to be good at what your doing..

Like I say.. point anyhting at a plant pot on a nice day and you will get a pic..

Oh and while we are willy waving.. I get at least 20 pics a week published... thats every week.
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Are we being Mr Angry because of City's rather poor pre season

But we know where you are coming from as a pro Sports tog you have to have the kit that will do the job in other areas more modest kit will do the job.

Oh and I've just said nice things about you on the "Favourite TP Photographer" thread
 
I'm quite happy having just entry level kit. I know I will never get shots as good as others who have expensive kit but I enjoy trying to get the best shots I can with the equipment I have. That means trying to get interesting content, at the right settings and well composed pictures. There is plenty of room for me to improve in these areas.When I can I save up and buy extra stuff.

Sue
 
CaptainPenguin said:
Are we being Mr Angry because of City's rather poor pre season
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Believe me I am never angry.. not even mildly.. although associating me with any premiership team could tip me over the edge :)

CaptainPenguin said:
But we know where you are coming from as a pro Sports tog you have to have the kit that will do the job in other areas more modest kit will do the job.
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Poeple keep posting its not the kit when it so obviously is (in some situations) and all this is explained and we agree to a point...then someone comes along and says its definitely not the kit... sigh


CaptainPenguin said:
Oh and I've just said nice things about you on the "Favourite TP Photographer" thread
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Oh no... I already got the sick bag out reading everyone elses :)
 
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