Waterproof clothing that isn't waterproof?

DazJW

DazJW

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It's poured down all day so far today and that's reminded me I could do with a better waterproof jacket and some waterproof gloves. So off to various search systems (Google, these forums, etc) I go to find out what's worth looking at.

Gloves-wise a lot of people rave about Sealskinz, so I had a look at them on Amazon.
There are fifteen one-star reviews that all say they're not waterproof (and several add that they're not even warm when they're dry), four two-star reviews that either say they're not warm or they're not waterproof and four three-star reviews that say they're not waterproof.
Yet the seven four-star reviews and the nineteen five-star reviews range from saying they do what they advertise right up to a reviewer saying they didn't notice the wet or the cold until they saw an icicle forming on the outside of the glove while the advertising shows the glove being submerged in water and claims they're 100% waterproof.

Generally speaking the one-star and two-star reviews on places like Amazon are hugely subjective and emotionally charged rants about Battlefield 3 not being a Call of Duty game or something fatuous like that but most of these are sensibly written and are about an objective point (whether water penetrates the product).

YouTube is the same, with videos of Sealskinz products being demonstrated to be totally waterproof (mostly promo videos from shops and trade shows) and videos of them being shown to not be even a little bit waterproof (mainly videos from customers).

Jackets have a much less extreme version of the problem but it still seems like most product have some people claiming they're not actually waterproof.

I understand there are different levels of waterproof and that it only really means the material can take a certain amount/pressure before being penetrated but how can something that can supposedly take being submerged not stand up to fairly light testing?
 
DazJW said:
I understand there are different levels of waterproof
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Are there?
I thought waterproof was waterproof!
You can buy water resistant and showerproof but if it says waterproof then surely it should be.
 
gramps said:
You can buy water resistant and showerproof but if it says waterproof then surely it should be.
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I believe there are standards for qualifying as water resistant and waterproof, so something that only just qualifies as waterproof wouldn't be as good as something that is a lot more waterproof than the standard requires.
 
I've found that all of the breathable fabrics such as Goretex and similar have a limit to the amount of water they repel. Walking in the Lake District in torrential rain even the most expensive jacket has eventually failed and I've ended up soaked to the skin.

Working outdoors always poses a problem to. I have a set of waterproofs, jacket and trousers that have never let water through but I sweat so much in them there is no real benefit.
 
I have a pair of sealskin Socks, which are waterproof, until said water goes beyond sock height and enters the inside of the sock as the grip isn't very tight (thin legs :lol:)

so yes they're 100% waterproof up until the top of the sock, but not if submerged above sock height.

Therefore I can understand both reviews.
 
DazJW said:
something that only just qualifies as waterproof wouldn't be as good as something that is a lot more waterproof than the standard requires.
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Sorry but I don't see this at all, waterproof means that it won't let water through, much like the traditional fishermens gear, (keeps water out but induces sweat!). If it lets water in it ain't waterproof, it is showerproof, water-resistant or similar.
 
gramps said:
Sorry but I don't see this at all, waterproof means that it won't let water through, much like the traditional fishermens gear, (keeps water out but induces sweat!). If it lets water in it ain't waterproof, it is showerproof, water-resistant or similar.
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You'd think so but that's not how they define it. The design section of the Wikipedia page on Waterproof fabric has a bit on what I'm on about:
"Standard laboratory testing protocols define the performance of these fabrics. Water resistance is measured by the amount of water, in mm, which can be suspended above the fabric before water seeps through."
"One specific definition of "waterproof/breathable" requires the fabric to withstand over 1,000 millimetres of water (9.8 kPa) pressure without leaking"

That last part is something I've read on the tags attached to "100% waterproof" jackets in the past.

AndrewA123 said:
I have a pair of sealskin Socks, which are waterproof
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One of the videos I watched shows them being defeated by walking around a wet field for a couple of minutes (I don't think water could have gotten in at the top of them, at least not to the same degree the socks underneath are wet by), however there are other videos showing them being submerged with no problems.

I wonder if Sealskinz just have really bad quality control.
 
Could it be that some of the sealskin are not the real thing but are just cheap copies that people could be trying to sell as the real thing? I know if you buy GHD hair straighteners from amazon they are normally genuine ones but if you buy from somebody on ebay a lot of them are anything but genuine lol . Just a thought :-)
 
That's entirely possible as they're being sold by Amazon Marketplace accounts rather than Amazon themselves.
 
DazJW said:
That's entirely possible as they're being sold by Amazon Marketplace accounts rather than Amazon themselves.
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There was an issue that came to light a while ago with counterfeit products being sold through amazon marketplace, I think it was on Watch Dog a while ago.


That said, it could be that some issues stem from Poor Quality Control.

I was wading through water at chest height so they were well under water and the "neck" of them was no where near tight enough to withhold water :lol: Through normal use I've had no issues.....yet :suspect:
 
Coming from an outdoor hobby background it was more often sweat/condensation generated by body temperature leading to garments being wet inside. There is also term (forget what they call it) that says the breathable membranes can become effectively vapour saturated and can seriously impact the functionality of the fabric. It led to 'breathable' jackets requiring 'pit zips' and other venting methods which was a bit odd having spent £300 on a waterproof jacket that had to have open vents all over it :lol:

Water can also wick up sleeves or down any zips openings leaving the liquid with no way out.

A few years ago when eVent fabric came on the scene the general consensus by the industry writers was it outperform performed the likes GoreTex and Triplepoint etc. I got a eVent jacket and found it performed better then anything I had before including 3 layer Gortex.
 
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Gadget show did a test on waterproof jackets and such like. Might be worth looking at their site. They soaked people with a firehose for several minutes.
 
I wear Gore-Tex® every day for my work. It's actually a suit made up by Halkon-Hunt, based on a design it makes for Daiwa. The material is very heavy duty and is p[rimarly designed to be worn over the appropriate fleece and undertrousers. Aside from a bit of water collecting on the cuffs where the elastic is, they are so, so waterproof that there is no other fabric I'd rely on.

I do have a few Berghaus and Mtn Equipment jackets made from a more supple version of Gore-Tex® that is good but doesn't have the staying power of the HH design. But then, they were a quarter of the price.

As far as gloves go, I've yet to find anything that'll suffice, especially if your hands are continuously getting wet (i.e. always holding something that collets water, like a fishing rod). I flit between some Burton snowboarding gloves for when it's cold but not so wet, and a pair of Macwets that are better in wet conditions but not when it's freezing.
 
Paramo works differently to Goretex and eVent.

Most people I know love Paramo and wouldn't go back to other brands once worn. The only issues were they didn't quite fit in with the 3layer 'norm' (base, mid & outer) and could get a bit warm on the munros.

Other than the 'rambler' styling of their garments, they were more effective and better to wear according to users.
 
I've had my Paramo about 5 years now, and its seen some heavy abuse, i have NEVER been wet on the inside even being outside at NESSR events in torrential rain (and i mean wading about in ankle deep water) Every spring i wash it and reproof it, yes it was the best part of £200 but its showing no sign of giving up the ghost just yet, and when it does i will definately buy another
 
Being involved in outdoor photography, shooting and fishing for the last 10 years and more I have spent up to £350 on jackets and probably went through at least 20 different types and the only one I have found to be 100% waterproof 100% of the time is a good old fashioned Barbour wax jacket.
 
I've had a Rab "packlight" jacket made of Event fabric for 5yrs and been out in all weathers, it's proven very reliable at keeping me dry, also have a pair of Sealskinz gloves which I've also found excellent.

I think the previous comment about condensation inside jackets is definitely a valid one, the Extreme fabric seems better at coping with this than most

Simon
 
'Waterproofness' is measured in terms of the PSI of the Hydrostatic Head.

The higher the number the more waterprrof it is. You will always see the PSI rating given to a tent for example but not always clothing.

The British Standard of 3 PSI has to be met to call a jacket waterproof meaning the jacket can withstand 1500mm of water pressure. Falling rain generates about 2 PSI (approx 1,000mm) however it's not just the pressure of the rain that matters as leaning on your elbow or kneeling down might result in 8000mm of pressure etc etc

With that in mind you can see how a jacket can be called 'waterproof' when in real life situations - it's not.

Decent waterprrof garments tend to be 20 PSI (10,000mm) to 40 PSI (20,000mm)
 
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bobtee said:
yeh got a paramo jacket last month, a bit pricey but wow what a coat
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If they're good enough for mountain rescue, they're good enough for me:lol::lol:
 
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