Please explain to me how 'Time For' isn't free. If no money exchanges hands then it's free.
Wanted - photographer for wedding in Cornwall
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Moonhawk
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But the OPs post wasnt worded as if the tog would be getting nothing out of it. In fact the OP specifically mentions togs who are looking to build a portfolio (the implication being that the OP would be willing to give permission for any images to be used in portfolio and promotional material).
I really dont see what people are getting worked up about. There are plenty on these forums who have indicated that they would be prepared to do a shoot like this. Those who object to this neednt get involved, and certainly not to the point of posting sarcastic or disparaging remarks against the OP (if for no other reason than most who have posted these remarks - have their business details splashed across their signature).
boyfalldown
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No - I don't think it is, if you put it in legal terms there is a 'consideration' changing hands. What I mean on a TFCD basis the model gains photographs to use in portfolio in exchange for the photographers time, and the photographer gains work for their own portfolio and experience.
If you related that to a wedding, the Bride gains her wedding photographs and the photographer gains experience and photographs that can be used in a portfolio and for future marketing. Highly valuable for both parties but no money changes hands, but a trade takes place.
Hugh
I agree with you totally on this point Marcel. I work in the TV industry and it absolutely boils my ****, the amount of adverts I see asking for people (I'm talking about more experienced postions such as DOP and sound recordist for example) to work a 10 hour day (some times a few weeks) without pay because their is "no budget", with the promise of "working with a great crew" or "having the film shown at xyz film festival".
If their genuinely is no budget or its a charity job then its not so bad, but expecting people to work for free when a profit is going to be made from commercial work is not right.
/Rant over... sorry if I swayed off topic a little.
(ps. enjoy your wedding)
boyfalldown
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sorry - getting confused between threads there, easily done when there are two nearly identical running at the same time :bonk:
foodpoison
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My girlfriend is fresh out of college (going to uni in sept) and makes dresses for people, and charges for fabric and a bit extra for time (she charges her hourly wage at her part time job, if it takes her 4 hours to make a dress, she'll charge for the fabric and the money she would have made had she been at work).
She doesn't do it professionally, but it seems that it's okay to ask a photographer to take photographs for free.
"But you've already got the kit, it's not costing you anything?!"
swanseamale47
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Moonhawk
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Wow the thread has now moved on to attacking amateur photographers - because as we all know - an amateur photographer is incapable of taking a decent photo...........
But the thing is, if you already have the kit then it's not really costing you anything. Maybe a few batteries for the flash and travel costs to get there but if the photographer doesn't want to do it then they'll say no.
I've built up about £3,000 worth of kit over the last year or so but I've done that because it's my hobby and I enjoy it. I'm not going to charge people to stand in front of me and pose to recover the cost of my hobby. I would if it was my job but it's not.
HoppyUK
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There seems to be a lot of indignation from the professional side. I can understand that. But I don't agree with it.
If the idea of doing this shoot without fee doesn't appeal, then don't do it. But equally, don't be critical of others that would quite like to have a go at the gig. And like it or not, there are people who would do a freebie, for whatever reason. And they might just do a decent job - let the bride and groom be judges of that.
If that undermines professional status in some way, then that's the way of the world right now.
If the idea of doing this shoot without fee doesn't appeal, then don't do it. But equally, don't be critical of others that would quite like to have a go at the gig. And like it or not, there are people who would do a freebie, for whatever reason. And they might just do a decent job - let the bride and groom be judges of that.
If that undermines professional status in some way, then that's the way of the world right now.
swanseamale47
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Many are very competent, many are not, who knows what you'll get?
Yesterday I had 3 questions from 3 amateur photographers who should really have known better (none were beginners) one didn't know where the memory card was as she always uses the usb cable to download. Another had managed to delete all the images on the memory card by accident, yet another had managed to turn the lens to manual focus (not difficult) but didn't know what was wrong or how to put it right.
Lucky you if you get one of these doing your wedding for free!
Moonhawk
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But surely that is up to the couple to decide whether to take the risk.
swanseamale47
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If somebody gets a bad tog and it's bad news then it affects us all, a few kiddy fiddlers have us all tarred as perverts every time we produce a camera already!
Plus people will say they don't mind a beginner but after the event they will still expect decent pictures. Then theres the fact people doing weddings for nothing is devaluing the business for those who make a living out of it.
Moonhawk
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Fine - but the same argument also applies to all the togs who have posted sarcastic or disparaging remarks against the OP. If the OP were to go back to the forum whence they came and complained about their treatment here - how do you think it makes the rest of us look - those who are understanding of the OPs question and may have been willing to help?
Also as a professional wedding photographer - would you be willing to take on a complete amateur with no track record of weddings? I posted requests for wedding assisting work on several forums - and didnt get a single bite. In the end I decided to go down the route of offering a free service in order to gain this experience on my own - is this wrong and if so what alternative would you suggest - do I simply wait around forever on the off chance that a pro might get in touch?
Meyssonnier
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What's that old saying (you get what you pay for)
Graham
Graham
Moonhawk
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There are plently of old sayings for example - "a fool and his money....."
HoppyUK
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To be honest SM47, "devaluing the business" would seem to be at the heart of it.
And the fact is that a lot of people believe that taking a set of wedding photos of an acceptable standard (in their judgement) is not that difficult.
The insistance that you need to spend thousands of pounds on a professional squad to do the job properly, or even at all, is going to meet resistance from cash strapped couples. Understandably IMHO. A competant amateur is quite capable of doing a 'good enough' job for a lot of people - they just want a clear and colourful record of the day, and perhaps rather less of the perfect romantic illusion that is the wedding photographer's stock in trade.
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I am going to sit on the fence (sort of).
1: It's WRONG to ask a PRO to do it for free. Besides, no real pro would do it for free, so it's moot.
2: It's extremely KIND to allow an amatuer to shoot it for free. You are giving the person a great chance to discover a talent which may lead to a career.
With my free work, I always 100% without ANY mucking around, explain that I could make a complete cockup of the work. I insist that if they CAN afford to pay, they SHOULD. I act like I am offering a "charitable" service with no guarentee of them liking said service. I then tell them though, that if they can accept that, I will most likely end up being awesome and they will want to divorce their husband and have my babies, which is also bad for the whole wedding thing.
If they accept THAT, I'm sold
Gary.
I came here because of a link from another forum, mainly because I am very keen to take my photography to another level, one that pays the bills.
Unfortunately this has so far been the tale of two extremes. There are those people like my "friend" who thinks that I should go on doing it for free, to build up my reputation, and there are others with their heads in the clouds, who say that doing a job for less than £1000 is catering for the "rubbish" end of the market, and that I will not be able to cover my costs.
I could not do another job for free, because I know that I would resent it, and therefore the results would not be very good.
On the other forum, there was a topic by a bride who had found a keen, polite photographer who did indeed shoot her wedding for free. In her comments, she said that he was charming and well spoken, and although she had been given a CD and album, and most of the images were great, she felt that he had not put enough effort in on the day, and that several "key" shots were missing, and that he did not stay very long in the evening.
I agree with everything Swanseamale47 has said, because he has been very realistic on this topic.
Rob, who is young and just starting out in photography, you do not have 30 years experience, yet you say digital has made things simple. Yes it is simple to put the camera on auto and fill up 4 memory cards with images, but it is far better to think about every picture, because you are hopefully going to stand head and shoulders above every "Tom, **** or Harry" with a DSLR.
Unfortunately this has so far been the tale of two extremes. There are those people like my "friend" who thinks that I should go on doing it for free, to build up my reputation, and there are others with their heads in the clouds, who say that doing a job for less than £1000 is catering for the "rubbish" end of the market, and that I will not be able to cover my costs.
I could not do another job for free, because I know that I would resent it, and therefore the results would not be very good.
On the other forum, there was a topic by a bride who had found a keen, polite photographer who did indeed shoot her wedding for free. In her comments, she said that he was charming and well spoken, and although she had been given a CD and album, and most of the images were great, she felt that he had not put enough effort in on the day, and that several "key" shots were missing, and that he did not stay very long in the evening.
I agree with everything Swanseamale47 has said, because he has been very realistic on this topic.
Rob, who is young and just starting out in photography, you do not have 30 years experience, yet you say digital has made things simple. Yes it is simple to put the camera on auto and fill up 4 memory cards with images, but it is far better to think about every picture, because you are hopefully going to stand head and shoulders above every "Tom, **** or Harry" with a DSLR.
Moonhawk
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With my free work, I always 100% without ANY mucking around, explain that I could make a complete cockup of the work. I insist that if they CAN afford to pay, they SHOULD. I act like I am offering a "charitable" service with no guarentee of them liking said service. I then tell them though, that if they can accept that, I will most likely end up being awesome and they will want to divorce their husband and have my babies, which is also bad for the whole wedding thing.
If they accept THAT, I'm sold
Gary.
I did exactly the same. I was up front fron the outset and even drafted a contract which contained (amongst other things) the following text so there was no ambiguity:
The couple agree that they do not consider the photographers to be an alternative to a paid professional photographer. The couple understands that at this point in time the photographers have limited experience in wedding photography and as such cannot guarantee the quality (both aesthetically or technically) of any images supplied. The couple agree that, after viewing examples of the photographers work, they have of their own volition chosen to request the services of the photographers.
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In that case, it's a perfectly valid way for two things.
1: Free wedding photos
2: Experience of shooting a wedding.
Be up front, and don't EXPECT a pro standard. I maintain, to ASK for a PRO to do it for free, is not only ignorant, but just plain STUPID. Pro's get paid, simples.
Gary.
swanseamale47
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Great then we won't get flooded by freebie requests from tight brides, face facts she ain't getting the wedding venue for free so why should she expect a free tog?
As for you looking for a job maybe a recession isn't the best time to take on new staff, especially as the pros are loosing wedding to the "have a go heros" at that rate they'll never be taking anyone on, if your not getting "paid" wedding how do you afford to employ somebody? It's a vicious circle.
Moonhawk
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The OP of this thread was coming from exactly this position though. Its a real shame how some people have reacted to this. The other thread has been closed as the OP was hounded by some quite spiteful comments.
Unfortunately as SM47 pointed out above -it only takes a few for us all to be tarred with the same brush. I just hope those comments havent put a black cloud over what should be a wonderful day for them and I hope those who have indicated that they could help, prove all of the critics wrong.
I think that the only reason the OP was treated less than respectfully, was because she had spent lavishly on everything else, but valued the skills of a photographer considerably lower than anyone else.
swanseamale47
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I noticed on the other thread (now closed), that the OP was willing to pay £400 plus for a hog roast at the reception, yet not willing to pay for a photographer.
Interesting to see how far down we are on the "food chain"
It would suggest we are below cooked pig! So obviously not very important then.
I hope whoever does it remembers that and it reflects in the photos.
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I noticed on the other thread (now closed), that the OP was willing to pay £400 plus for a hog roast at the reception, yet not willing to pay for a photographer.
Interesting to see how far down we are on the "food chain"
I have zero issue with the lady requesting help in this thread.
The other one?
"I would really like a couple of professional"
Cheekier than a cheeky thing in a cheek factory which operates in cheekland, cheekopia, on the planet cheek! Which BTW, is in the Cheek Quadrant, part of the Cheeky way in fact!
Gary.
cyclone
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That wedding forum is a good read
It's interesting that some people are on there saying getting my uncle to shoot it for free etc. where can I find a free tog etc.
Then there's a thread saying need to cut costs, the dress is £1.2k the tog is £1.2k and the venue is £3k and I an NOT prepared to compromise these three things.
It seems some people have very different priorities.
I do have sympathy for the people that genuinely have little money for the things they want, but for people wanting a free service so they can go on a £5k honeymoon, sorry, that IS rude.
It's interesting that some people are on there saying getting my uncle to shoot it for free etc. where can I find a free tog etc.
Then there's a thread saying need to cut costs, the dress is £1.2k the tog is £1.2k and the venue is £3k and I an NOT prepared to compromise these three things.
It seems some people have very different priorities.
I do have sympathy for the people that genuinely have little money for the things they want, but for people wanting a free service so they can go on a £5k honeymoon, sorry, that IS rude.
Moonhawk
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You talk about a recession and not being able to afford to employ someone - whilst at the same time accusing the OP's of being "tight brides" :shrug:
We dont know the personal circumstances of the OP's of either of these threads.
S
susie
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While I do see the point that people should pay for work done by the photographer (and yes I do realise that camera usage and insurance could cost up to £25 a wedding before you add on fuel etc), Moonhawk has a good point - there are often posts from people on here wanting to find work as a second shooter with replies along the lines of good luck but a pro will not want to be training possible competition.
If the pros will not take on and show the "amateur" how to do a wedding properly and to a pro standard then there is only one way the amateur will get experience and thats by doing them for nothing - and of course then getting told they are wrong to do so.
I have seen posts on here thanking the occasional pro for letting people get experience of being a second shooter at a wedding (Hacker comes to mind as one who has helped people), and but until more of the wedding photographers allow someone to go along as a second or assistant the people offering to shoot for nothing will always be around.
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HoppyUK
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I noticed on the other thread (now closed), that the OP was willing to pay £400 plus for a hog roast at the reception, yet not willing to pay for a photographer.
Interesting to see how far down we are on the "food chain"
Photography is pretty low down the priority list for a lot of couples. Their priority is to have a wonderful day to remember, with their families and friends. Quite right too.
They just want a record of the day, not an officious master of ceremonies taking over everything, flashing away in the church only with regard to their own 'art' (and print orders).
An certainly my idea of a great day out is not to stand in line being photographed endlessly from every angle, and waiting ages while everybody else is bossed around in the same way.
If you look at it like that, then it's not surprising that couples don't see eye to eye with the pro photographers 'demands' especially when it comes to the bill.
Susie, the real costs involved are closer to £300 a wedding on depreciation on kit, insurance, travel and marketing to get that booking in the first place, website hosting etc.
Now I have shot for a year as a second and last weekend saw me have a second of my very own
To be honest I did not find it that difficult to do, you just have to be smart about how you go about it and be prepared to travel and put yourself out.
As long as you find brides who will spend £1300 on a week away and £400 on hog roasts thinking they can get away with professional photography for nothing then that's where we have a problem.
SM47 is right in that there is no way most wedding togs could employ someone else to assist/second shoot on a regular basis so long as the prices are constantly driven down by brides who don't value their photography and photographers who value it even less.
Yes there IS a place for doing it for free but the hog roast lady is not a good case IMHO.
Now I have shot for a year as a second and last weekend saw me have a second of my very own
To be honest I did not find it that difficult to do, you just have to be smart about how you go about it and be prepared to travel and put yourself out.As long as you find brides who will spend £1300 on a week away and £400 on hog roasts thinking they can get away with professional photography for nothing then that's where we have a problem.
SM47 is right in that there is no way most wedding togs could employ someone else to assist/second shoot on a regular basis so long as the prices are constantly driven down by brides who don't value their photography and photographers who value it even less.
Yes there IS a place for doing it for free but the hog roast lady is not a good case IMHO.
Moonhawk
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So rather than an upcoming amatuer gaining some experience - you would rather the OP simply didnt have a photographer at all.
If it was my wedding over again and I had to choose between food for my guests, friends and family - or a pro photographer, i'd choose the food every time.
Byker28i
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So popped back and this is still going on.
I think the general problem here is possibly us amateurs? Aren't we the ones who show off our photo's, the magazine racks are full of photography magazines showing marvellous photo's and the latest camera adverts show how easy it is...
Aunty Mabel bought a point and shoot and got great snaps...
It's no surprise then that people think there's no skill or effort these days to 'just taking a few photographs', but as we know there's a huge difference between snaps and great photo's.
The one wedding I did as a favour was an interesting experience. I had the maid of honour (great assistant, very bossy and knew everyone) organise the guests and then all I had to do was contend with the other guests walking in my way, trying to get everyone to have eye contact with them, not me etc.
At the end of the day, I'm pleased to say I got great and unique shots by being quietly and politely insistant. Have to say some of the snaps I saw were worse than the ones I discarded.
And please remember your manners chaps. I doubt you'd respond to the brides to their faces in the way some have written on these threads.
I think the general problem here is possibly us amateurs? Aren't we the ones who show off our photo's, the magazine racks are full of photography magazines showing marvellous photo's and the latest camera adverts show how easy it is...
Aunty Mabel bought a point and shoot and got great snaps...
It's no surprise then that people think there's no skill or effort these days to 'just taking a few photographs', but as we know there's a huge difference between snaps and great photo's.
The one wedding I did as a favour was an interesting experience. I had the maid of honour (great assistant, very bossy and knew everyone) organise the guests and then all I had to do was contend with the other guests walking in my way, trying to get everyone to have eye contact with them, not me etc.
At the end of the day, I'm pleased to say I got great and unique shots by being quietly and politely insistant. Have to say some of the snaps I saw were worse than the ones I discarded.
And please remember your manners chaps. I doubt you'd respond to the brides to their faces in the way some have written on these threads.
IanH
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Look, I can't make it any more simple. These ladies are spending thousands on hols in NYC and Hog roasts, £800 dresses. These are not ladies on a budget, just trying to get something for nothing and there is a big difference. The minimum wage was introduced for a reason!
I do a very cheap package for those on a budget, for £350 I will check out the venue, pay you a visit to discuss your requirements, shoot the bride arriving, the ceremony, group shots and some B&G shots at the venue. You can then happliy add all your guests pics to those and have a good record of your day. I'll provide them on DVD for you and you also have access to any albums/products you might choose later. You don't have to limit yourself just because your budget does not run to the £1000's and I know other pros who do this too. All the backup and experience you need for £350.
So will people please stop thinking that because we do it professionally we are all rip of artists who cost the earth and shout at your guests because I'm fed up hearing it!:bonk:
Moonhawk
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AliB - I can see where you are coming from - but its a supply and demand thing.
So long as people want free wedding photographers - and there are photographers willing to do it for free (because they cant gain experience any other way) - then this situation is always going to arise.
So long as people want free wedding photographers - and there are photographers willing to do it for free (because they cant gain experience any other way) - then this situation is always going to arise.
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