VW no doing so well, Ja?

StewartR said:
I've been doing some reading about this, and interestingly the original notice of violation issued by the US Environmental Protection Agency doesn't mention crash sensors. The letter is here: [click]. It alleges that the defeat device "senses whether the vehicle is being tested or not based on various inputs including the position of the steering wheel, vehicle speed, the duration of the engine's, operation, and barometric pressure". Surely, if it uses the crash sensors to detect that it's being tested, then it doesn't need to do all that fancy stuff involving the position of the steering wheel and the speed?

What's also interesting is that, even if the VW defeat device were operable on the roads (assuming the driver drove at the correct speed, etc), it would still be illegal. Credit here to the lawyers who drafted the regulations, because they did an excellent piece of work. The relevant regulations are here: [click]. VW are accused of a breach of §7522(a)(3)(B) because the software was designed to beat the tests whether or not it was also operable "on the road"; and a breach of §7522(a)(1) because they had not declared the device and obtained a certificate of conformity for it.
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I think you may find the US emissions tests are carried out in a different manner to European tests. A mate at work has an Audi TDi and was told about the cheat by a Bosch engineer almost two years ago, he was able to replicate the test conditions and it is possible to hear a change in engine note as the ecu swaps to the alternative map.
 
So Bosch have been concealing evidence for almost 2 years?


nilagin said:
I think you may find the US emissions tests are carried out in a different manner to European tests. A mate at work has an Audi TDi and was told about the cheat by a Bosch engineer almost two years ago, he was able to replicate the test conditions and it is possible to hear a change in engine note as the ecu swaps to the alternative map.
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nilagin said:
I think you may find the US emissions tests are carried out in a different manner to European tests. A mate at work has an Audi TDi and was told about the cheat by a Bosch engineer almost two years ago, he was able to replicate the test conditions and it is possible to hear a change in engine note as the ecu swaps to the alternative map.
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So you're saying there are two separate cheats in the software? One based on steering wheel position, speed etc which is designed to beat the US tests, and a completely separate one based on the crash sensors which is designed to beat the EU tests?
 
arclight said:
VW announce a 3rd quarter £2.5bn loss and would have expected a £2.3bn profit if it had not been for the emissions scandal.
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Oh dear, what a shame, never mind. The 1st, 2nd and 4th quarter profits of £7.5bn should help em pull through somehow
 
DorsetDude said:
Oh dear, what a shame, never mind. The 1st, 2nd and 4th quarter profits of £7.5bn should help em pull through somehow
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Not to mention that they'll (probably) have used this quarter as a cover to put in provisions against anything else.
 
And next year VW will be blasted in the press for not paying any TAX :-)
 
If those that were accountable claim they didn't know what the software in those cars did, it probably means that they didn't have a process that supports full accountability. In which case it comes down to management incompetence.

You can be sure that now they will be hastily trying to set up a proper system. Where those responsible will be able to see and determine what goes into the cars.

This is nothing new. But some techies don't like to give control away and use smoke and mirrors to avoid setting up such systems.
 
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I am glad they are getting some stick for their actions. They started cheating and building cars to fail after just a few years. Well here is the payback.

I can't wait until other makers will get dragged in for overstating mileage and most likely emissions (one is linked to the other).

On the positive side this hopefully means we'll get proper affordable electric cars a few years earlier than planned by their evil marketing department.
 
Things are getting worse and worse for VW. This crisis makes a mere recall look like a publicity stunt.

Yes. Hooray for electric cars and the end of the stupid 'gear box'.
 
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ianp5a said:
Yes. Hooray for electric cars and the end of the stupid 'gear box'.
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+1

I can't wait for this to happen.

Although sadly some makers started putting gearboxes into their under-developed electric cars just to make them more expensive and unreliable. They hate making reliable no-nonsense cars.
 
Just need some range on electric cars.
I had the idea of a standard battery pack, need it changing for a long journey and you pull into the service station, man comes out removes one fits another and away you go. Slide in, slide out on a trolley type thing.

It's the long charge time thats mostly the killer
 
Byker28i said:
Just need some range on electric cars.
I had the idea of a standard battery pack, need it changing for a long journey and you pull into the service station, man comes out removes one fits another and away you go. Slide in, slide out on a trolley type thing.

It's the long charge time thats mostly the killer
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I was thinking that as well, subscribe to a service where you can pull in off the road to a garage and an automated service removes a refits a new battery in a few mins.

a bit like putting petrol in
 
Byker28i said:
I had the idea of a standard battery pack, need it changing for a long journey and you pull into the service station, man comes out removes one fits another and away you go. Slide in, slide out on a trolley type thing.
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There were several investment schemes, some years back, for a network of battery swap stations. Fully automated. No man. No trolley. And you only pay for what you've used. So you can swap a half used battery.

All of the electric car systems have problems. And the big big investments to solve them, will come as soon as one system looks like it's getting ahead of the rest.
 
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Steam engine boilers also used to explode. So I'm going back to horse power. You can even heat your house with their poo. They are a bit tricky to get onto a rolling road though. Especially with a NO 2 sensor up its tailpipe.
 
daugirdas said:
and a can of petrol is perfectly harmless when exposed to air and a little spark :)
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Petty much with a spark- yes, much more so with diesel. It's the vapour that ignites.
However - it was in response to my idea of replaceable batteries for electric cars. There would have to be some ruggedised container which isn't used currently as the shell of the car is considered the safety container. Not that that hasn't bitten tesla as two of their cars caught fire due to underfloor damage
 
Richard Westcott has been testing car emissions on BBC's Panorama to the European standards and both the VW and Opel fared really badly. It seems VW is facing crippling compensation payouts to owners, VW shareholders, pollution sufferers and even rival car companies. As each court case concludes, they will receive one financial blow after another over the next year or so.
 
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ianp5a said:
Richard Westcott has been testing car emissions on BBC's Panorama to the European standards and both the VW and Opel fared really badly. It seems VW is facing crippling compensation payouts to owners, VW shareholders, pollution sufferers and even rival car companies. As each court case concludes, they will receive one financial blow after another over the next year or so.
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I watched the programme, and even after it had been proven that the GM/Opel/Vauxhall was performing even worse than the VW, the programme still kept on hammering VW - why?
It is quite obvious that other manufacturers are cheating as well - US ones - so why the constant rubbishing of VW?
I would really like to see Germans start suing the US.
 
nilagin said:
Suing them for what? Finding out they had cheated and lied?
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Well, isn't that what the US are doing to VW?
The old, old story - expecting others to follow rules that you can conveniently ignore.
 
When can i hand my year old vw in and walk away with a pocket full of cash ??
 
andy700 said:
Well, isn't that what the US are doing to VW?
The old, old story - expecting others to follow rules that you can conveniently ignore.
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Have any other car manufacturers in the US been found to have cheated and lied? Don't think so. Whilst other manufacturers emissions have been found to be higher in real world conditions, which is to be expected, no other manufacturers have been found to have cheated the tests in the US or Europe for over 10yrs.
 
nilagin said:
Have any other car manufacturers in the US been found to have cheated and lied? Don't think so. Whilst other manufacturers emissions have been found to be higher in real world conditions, which is to be expected, no other manufacturers have been found to have cheated the tests in the US or Europe for over 10yrs.
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Did you watch the programme?
The 2015 Zafira produced results far worse than the VW.
Opel are part of GM - a US company.
 
lukey1965 said:
When can i hand my year old vw in and walk away with a pocket full of cash ??
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I don't know which country or which models were involved, but I did read a few weeks ago that VW were considering having to buy back some cars.
 
andy700 said:
Did you watch the programme?
The 2015 Zafira produced results far worse than the VW.
Opel are part of GM - a US company.
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No I didn't see it, was at work. VW are being fined not because of the high emissions but because they cheated the tests with software that would prevent the emissions from being detected during the test conditions. As I said before no other manufacturer has been found to be cheating their results for over 10yrs.
Quite why you feel VW should sue the US in return, just because Opel/Vauxhall is part of GM and an American company doesn't make sense. I very much doubt the Zafira is on sale in America, so how can you think the US are covering up anything their "own" manufacturers are doing. At the end of the day VW have held their hands up and agreed they have been cheating, not only on their own cars but many within their group, including Porsche. The question has to be asked, after using their VW boss as scape goat and paying him off to leave, they replaced him with a top knob from Porshce, surely he knew about the emissions cheat on his company's vehicles, so why hasn't he been replaced too?
 
nilagin said:
VW aren't really helping themselves. A goodwill package worth $1000 for the owners affected in the US, but nothing for it's European customers.
http://www.autonews.com/article/201...nsation-for-european-owners-of-rigged-diesels[/QUOTE

At the risk of sounding very naïve what have VW owners actually lost here and why should they get compensation - the emissions test rigging hasn't affected the car, its peformance or resale value, its not cost them anymore VED and other than having to take the car back in for a software update where is the loss? Yes VW are duplicitous but other than reputationally there's been no loss by customers!
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Overexposed said:
At the risk of sounding very naïve what have VW owners actually lost here and why should they get compensation - the emissions test rigging hasn't affected the car, its peformance or resale value, its not cost them anymore VED and other than having to take the car back in for a software update where is the loss? Yes VW are duplicitous but other than reputationally there's been no loss by customers!
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That would depend whether you included emissions under the performance banner. I think some (though few) people would. Resale values may also have been affected, but I'm sure an analysis of that will be done soon.
 
Overexposed said:
At the risk of sounding very naïve what have VW owners actually lost here and why should they get compensation - the emissions test rigging hasn't affected the car, its peformance or resale value, its not cost them anymore VED and other than having to take the car back in for a software update where is the loss? Yes VW are duplicitous but other than reputationally there's been no loss by customers!
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It's more than just a software update. Firstly the proper emissions system needs to be installed. Once installed and the software running properly, performance will be affected. Too early to say whether resale values will be affected, if they plan on compensating the US owners but not those in Europe, that could change how many people feel about VW and the way they treat their customers, people may well find they can't get the prices for their cars they once could.
 
nilagin said:
It's more than just a software update. Firstly the proper emissions system needs to be installed. Once installed and the software running properly, performance will be affected. Too early to say whether resale values will be affected, if they plan on compensating the US owners but not those in Europe, that could change how many people feel about VW and the way they treat their customers, people may well find they can't get the prices for their cars they once could.
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From what i've read it is just a software update. If the cars cannot maintain the emissions they quoted on sale after the update, then there would be case for compensation! I would suggest that the US has been compensated due to the litigious culture in the market and the threat of no win no fee lawyers proceeding with a class action!
 
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Overexposed said:
From what i've read it is just a software update. If the cars cannot maintain the emissions they quoted on sale after the update, then there would be case for compensation! I would suggest that the US has been compensated due to the litigious culture in the market and the threat of no win no fee lawyers proceeding with a class action!
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It's more than just a software update as the system installed isn't large enough for everyday running. It is only big enough to get the cars through the odd emissions test. Once installed, not only is there likely to be a drop in performance, it may well also increase fuel consumption. Add to that an increase in servicing costs when the system needs to be serviced, due to EU law, you don't have to have a car serviced at a main dealer, so whilst some owners may wish to have their cars serviced at a VW dealer and VW may cover the cost of the extra work etc. Anyone using an independent garage should be compensated as the garage won't be doing it for free. So yes in all those respects, VAG diesel owners do deserve to be compensated.
 
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