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VW no doing so well, Ja?
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Fla5h
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Phil V
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It's not just Bankers and never was, we now put a ridiculous amount of investment into 'talented' people in business - where talented means anyone who is prepared to lie thieve and cheat as long as they can give the impression of legitimacy.
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Did he actually know about it or has he just been paid to take the fall? There is probably some engineer/manager somewhere may no longer even work for VW, under pressure to get the performance and economy figures needed, whilst another needs to meet the emissions. Instead of doing the right thing and find the right trade off between the two, they came up with a plan to get both.
What people don't realise is, not only does this reduce peoples faith in VW in this respect, but all diesel powered cars. People will be cancelling orders on new cars, 2nd hand dealers will be left with cars they may well find hard to shift, probably lose money on, if they can find buyers. It's going to hurt a lot of people.
cambsno
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Not really. There will always be a few that make a mess of things, in the same way that not all Muslims are nasty people but a few are! Not all bankers or business people cheat. That said, Branson was done for vat fraud in the early 70s but overall most would say he his brilliant. You can't argue that he is worth every penny he earns.
Maybe he was involved, maybe He wasn't, but by him leaving it allows vw to start afresh with a leader untarnished by this. Looks good for pr so why should he not be paid off.
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I was interested to hear potential buyers on R5 this morning saying that the scandal wouldn't put them off buying a VW.
Not that I'm interested in a VW but if I was I think I'd be worried about this affecting the resale value. Maybe the VW German quality thing and brand loyalty will be enough to see them through this without too much affect on sales but if so I think they'll be lucky. Personally I wouldn't touch one so this emission scandal doesn't really affect me.
Not that I'm interested in a VW but if I was I think I'd be worried about this affecting the resale value. Maybe the VW German quality thing and brand loyalty will be enough to see them through this without too much affect on sales but if so I think they'll be lucky. Personally I wouldn't touch one so this emission scandal doesn't really affect me.
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The thing with the iphone is not everyone is daft enough to put a phone in a back pocket and sit on it and of course buying the wrong phone doesn't cost you several £k if the resale market for them falls off a cliff.
Personally I wouldn't touch any Audi/VW group product even before this but doubly so now.
Personally I wouldn't touch any Audi/VW group product even before this but doubly so now.
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Not really that much of a fresh start to be honest. The new leader came from Porsche who merged with VW in 2009. Porsche owns a 50.76% stake in VW and VW owns a stake of over 40% in Porsche.
neil_g
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I guess it comes down to whether you're really that bothered about a few CO2 going "missing".
Personally I like the VAG styling and comfort, the mpg on the diesel range is pretty good. Servicing costs aren't too bad at an independent. Granted they're not perfect for reliability (my PD140 needed a new dual mass at 62k as they're made of chocolate on that engine) but the emissions thing isn't a deal breaker for me.*
* I've always bought used.
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It won't just be the co2 though, once rectified, fuel consumption will be increased and performance will be reduced
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Yes, no emissions because the exhaust was piped in to the car's interior to snuff out the occupants.
neil_g
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If you take it in for the fix.
Plus who's to say they cant tweek the map. Even a £300 Revo remap to replace the generic tune can improve economy and performance, it can't be beyond VAG to fix the issue while maintaining the engine characteristics.
Phil V
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But what does that remap do for the NOx levels?
cambsno
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By how much though? Think off our Tiguan we get around 50mpg
neil_g
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I have no figures on NOx to be honest. But you're essentially taking an ecu with a one country's fuel and altitude fits all ignition and fuel map and tweeking it to be more specific. Performance and economy are improved while not causing issues on co2 for not testing. That can only be a good thing surely.
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The map a manufacturer puts on a car is balance of performance, economy and emissions. A remap doesn't take emissions into consideration. They will get worse, more than likely not enough to fail an MOT, but they will still get worse. As Phil mentions Nox will also become worse.
I can't speak for VW but I do know that Ford do specialised maps for engines running in different altitudes or has different grades of fuel, it's not a case of one map fits all.
No idea to be honest. There are several things to consider. Is the Urea tank already fitted a suitable size? If not how much extra weight will it add to the vehicle, inclusive of the urea. Add to that the reduction from the emissions now working properly, it could be 1 or 2 mpg. it could be 5 or 10mpg. Until VW sort it and have the cars retested, no one knows for certain other than VW, as I'm sure they must have had those figures before deciding to cheat. But the fact they felt they needed to cheat the figures could mean that something, whether it is just economy, just performance, or indeed both, might just have been significant.
AJQS
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I'd guess it is or they wouldn't have gone to the rouble of rigging up such an elaborate scam. You can't have everything in one engine.
AJQS
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Yep, the diesel MOT emissions section is pretty lax. Even a petrol car with proper strict limits can still easily pass an MOT with the wildest of maps on an otherwise unaltered engine.
wave01
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Questions are there other manufacturers doing the same. Are petrol engines being subjected to the same software.
I have known for years that the testing of mpg is a farce and is not done in real world conditions. Is this the tip of the iceberg
I have known for years that the testing of mpg is a farce and is not done in real world conditions. Is this the tip of the iceberg
BillN_33
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I have a 1976 MGB with a slightly modified engine ....... how do I get it through the CO2 emissions test? - making "adjustments" before the MOT has gone on for years
BUT a quote from the GOV.UK web site - Emissions testing
"Roadside checks
Your vehicle can also be tested during a roadside check.
If it fails the check, you’ll be given a prohibition notice. You’ll have 10 days to fix the problem. If you don’t fix it within this period you may be prosecuted.
If your vehicle is seriously in breach of the legal emission limits, or if it has other defects which make it dangerous, the notice will come into effect immediately. You won’t be able to use the vehicle. You may also be prosecuted."
Are the government going to get out there and roadside test VW cars ........ have they tested any car other than commercial vehicles?
BUT a quote from the GOV.UK web site - Emissions testing
"Roadside checks
Your vehicle can also be tested during a roadside check.
If it fails the check, you’ll be given a prohibition notice. You’ll have 10 days to fix the problem. If you don’t fix it within this period you may be prosecuted.
If your vehicle is seriously in breach of the legal emission limits, or if it has other defects which make it dangerous, the notice will come into effect immediately. You won’t be able to use the vehicle. You may also be prosecuted."
Are the government going to get out there and roadside test VW cars ........ have they tested any car other than commercial vehicles?
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srichards
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I had a roadside test years and years ago. When I had an old fiat. Passed fine. They also checked things like lights and indicators. I've never ever had another.
Ther is a pollution hotspot near me. Never seen them testing vehicles.
Ther is a pollution hotspot near me. Never seen them testing vehicles.
BillN_33
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The unintended consequences of how they, (governments) handle this situation is frightening
The Swiss have (temporarily) banned the sale of VW's ..... what's going to happen to the people who work for the dealers etc., etc.,
There are dangers in many of things that happen today, particularly related to waste products and also in areas that are not regulated well ....... this is now part of everyday life and it need to be dealt with in a sensible way ...... "banning" the sale of a VW seems to me to be a panic measure that is not sensible ...... as does the way that the media can deal with such situations
How much time do you spend in your darkroom room sniffing those chemicals ..........
The Swiss have (temporarily) banned the sale of VW's ..... what's going to happen to the people who work for the dealers etc., etc.,
There are dangers in many of things that happen today, particularly related to waste products and also in areas that are not regulated well ....... this is now part of everyday life and it need to be dealt with in a sensible way ...... "banning" the sale of a VW seems to me to be a panic measure that is not sensible ...... as does the way that the media can deal with such situations
How much time do you spend in your darkroom room sniffing those chemicals ..........
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BillN_33
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How much do VW spend on "marketing" - I believe over US$ 3 billion a year on advertising and marketing
just another marketing expense - cynical if you like - to show the buying public that action is being taken, probably the wrong action as the guy probably did not have a clue that this was happening - how can he be expected to know such detail ....... so bring someone new in who has more knowledge, not possible???
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No need to cheat Petrol engine emissions, the level of NOX, even on direct injection petrol engines is no where near the level of diesel engines. It's only as emissions regulations get tighter they may struggle and GPF's may be needed to keep emissions down. As it is the variations in start of injection combine with spark advance and retardation, plus most engines having variable valve timing on a petrol engine will keep the emissions in check.
Even when mpg figures are tested in real world conditions from 2017, they still won't be representative of what everyone will achieve. You can't take into account of wind direction, traffic conditions, incline and decline in a road. To be able to compare fuel and emissions figures between every car, they all need to go through the exact same test.
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A lot easier to get a 76 car through an emissions check. The permissible limit will be very much higher due to the inability to get such engines anywhere near limits of even 20yrs ago let alone current limits.
I read yesterday that engineers within VW knew back in 2007 that the cheat was being considered and some engineers were opposed to it. So seems someone somewhere pulled rank for some reason.
Other than VW replacing their man at the top, they don't appear to have done anything about the problem. They certainly don't seem to have let there dealerships know anything, I'm sure they must be getting swamped with questions from existing owners as well as people who are waiting to take delivery.
I can only assume that having cheated to get the emissions down, they haven't done proper testing to get the required results, I work on Petrol engine development as opposed to diesel but I have an idea of the amount of testing involved, if they have no proper data to work from having always cheated since developing in 2007, they have a hell of a lot of testing and development to do. Back in 2007 they would have probably still have been tweaking for Euro 5 emissions, as they have continued with the cheat and we are now on to stricter Euro6 emissions, it makes me wonder how much they indeed bothered to do.
BillN_33
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MGB - It failed, emissions, ("just running too rich for the test, Sir") so I just weakened the mixture before the test, (rang like a pig), and then adjusted it back after it had passed, (I just "tuned" it!) ....... would that be considered illegal
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AJQS
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Doesn't matter because they pass the MOT as is and would therefore pass a roadside check too.
There is a massive difference between the emissions restrictions that modern cars have to conform to in order to be allowed on sale and the in comparison pointless MOT test equivalent, especially diesels, it's a complete joke!
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After reading quite a bit about this myself, I am struggling as to why VW would even do this?
Were they facing poor sales that would have forced the company into ruin and hence took a huge gamble?
This will basically ruin this company for years.
Were they facing poor sales that would have forced the company into ruin and hence took a huge gamble?
This will basically ruin this company for years.
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Technically yes, but because it is all too easy for a carburettor to go out of tune, different air temps from day to day and no ecu to make adjustments, your engine could go in and out of emissions legality from one day to the next that if close to the limit. There's no exact science to a carb engine, you'd really need to set it up each day to make it run anywhere near as well as a modern engine. I remember having one of those Colourtune kits to try to get the colour of the burn right, that is about as technical as it gets.
With an ecu the tuning can be adjusted constantly.
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I can only assume that VW were struggling to make their engines work as well as competitors with the same emissions, economy and performance results. Manufacturers set themselves a date when they will have an engine in cars to buy, they will have set figures they want to achieve to at least match but preferably beat their competitors. As I said earlier VW would have been working to Euro 5 emissions in 2007 when they first started using this cheat in their development. We are now at Euro 6, more than enough time to have gotten over the problem. They would have gotten away with it for the few years and bought themselves some time to do the job properly for Euro 6, but they chose not to, probably in the belief they got away with it that long, they could continue to do so and it would save them millions in development costs. At Ford it currently takes around 2yrs to develop an engine, before it appears in a car for the public to buy. That includes various build levels of the engine, before the final design is achieved, a lot of the tests are repeated on the engines, the map tweaked and improved all the time until the best combination is achieved. VW could have been reducing that development time and cost considerably. That's why I feel they are being slow to respond with an announcement on what they are going to do for a fix. I should imagine they are in panic stations at their engine development department.
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3 more VW sackings - R&D chiefs.
2.1 million Audis affected http://news.sky.com/story/1560147/2-1m-audi-cars-have-vw-emission-cheat-device
I am interested to know how those involved in this deception came to conclude that they would never eventually be rumbled.
2.1 million Audis affected http://news.sky.com/story/1560147/2-1m-audi-cars-have-vw-emission-cheat-device
I am interested to know how those involved in this deception came to conclude that they would never eventually be rumbled.
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As I said above, they got away with it in the first place, got over complacent and instead of doing their job properly continued to do it to save money. It must go higher than the 3 R&D chiefs though. As I mentioned above this will have been saving them a lot of development time and money. Now unless those R&D chiefs were lying to their bosses and pretending to take the time for proper development, someone else higher up will have known. I just don't believe the man right at the top would have known though.
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IIRC, MGs of a certain age have always been marginal since the MOT has included emissions tests. The chap who used to do our MOTs used to suggest that owners removed the air filter for the duration of the test to free up the induction air flow a fraction to help a little.
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Yes, but when you are at the top things may not be your fault directly, but they are your responsibility. You have the "Go to jail card - figuratively speaking"