VW no doing so well, Ja?

Byker28i said:
Great car in the US, comfy, fun, not a huge amount of room in the rear and a reasonable boot.
Quite a big car, not sure how it would work in some roads in the UK

15 ft 8 inches long, 6ft 10 wide. Length is ok but it's quite wide?
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A bit smaller than a new Mondeo hatchback then.
 
Mr Bump said:
Things like NCAP safety testing also play a part to a lot of safe buyers.

The VW Passat for instance top in its class 2014

AUDI Q7 highest rated ever car at 94% unless you count pedestrians who get f*cked but nobody gives a hoot how they do in an accident.

VW Touran almost top of its class also

All at the click of a button now.

http://www.euroncap.com/en
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A year or so ago Audi were dropped in it when dealers were claiming vehicles had rated highly in NCAP crash tests and the cars had never even been tested by NCAP.
 
Phil V said:
I wouldn't worry about that any more, most modern cars are plenty good enough at keeping you safe, the last few points are for pedestrians you hit (so my car has an aluminium bonnet and plastic wings) as if it makes that much difference. Most pedestrians that die will have hit their head on the front of the roof (there's no way that'll deform) or the kerb or other similar solid object.

An aside - the aluminium bonnet freaked me out the first time I popped it - I nearly launched it at the windscreen.
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The safety for pedestrians when hit by a car is the distance between the bonnet and the engine. Cars now have higher bonnet lines to increase the distance as most head injuries were caused by hitting the top of the engine even though the bonnet would have been in between. What the bonnet is made of is of no consequence other than reducing the weight of the vehicle.
 
I really don't get some of the anger aimed at VW... guessing its those people who get angry over anything... like people ringing Jeremy Vine earlier moaning as they chose the VW as it was green. Really!!! If you were bothered about green you wouldn't have a car, or if you did then you would get an electric one or a prius. As someone earlier said, aside from the government and tree huggers, who really cares. I doubt in this day and age there is much of a difference between VW, BMW, Ford etc... its hardly likely the VW is really 4 times more polluting than an equivalent engine elsewhere. Yes they have been naughty and got caught and they will pay in terms of fines and some customers not buying, but lets not make it into a huge issue.
 
Mr Bump said:
A lot of folk do though Phil especially the "baby on board" squad, how many times have you seen kids being dropped off in 4x4s at school.
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Modern 4x4's probably aren't much safer than a normal family car if it hits an equal sized vehicle. It was only around 10yrs ago where 4x4's were renowned for folding in half as the roof buckled inward and even more likely to injure occupants as opposed to a normal car.
 
cambsno said:
I really don't get some of the anger aimed at VW... guessing its those people who get angry over anything... like people ringing Jeremy Vine earlier moaning as they chose the VW as it was green. Really!!! If you were bothered about green you wouldn't have a car, or if you did then you would get an electric one or a prius. As someone earlier said, aside from the government and tree huggers, who really cares. I doubt in this day and age there is much of a difference between VW, BMW, Ford etc... its hardly likely the VW is really 4 times more polluting than an equivalent engine elsewhere. Yes they have been naughty and got caught and they will pay in terms of fines and some customers not buying, but lets not make it into a huge issue.
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But it's not 4 times, it's 40 times the limit. I can only speak for Ford as they issued this http://www.at.ford.com/news/cn/Pages/VWDefeatDevice.aspx have claimed that they have not cheated their emissions tests and the measures they have taken to meet emissions works all the time, where as the VW emission control only works under test conditions. I'm not aware of any other manufacturers response to this. What VW has done doesn't just have an effect on emissions, once customers cars have been rectified, it will also reduce economy and performance. Also the urea tank will now require topping up which is £200-300, unless VW are going to keep giving free refills for existing owners, then people will be getting some expensive bills once in a while.
 
nilagin said:
The safety for pedestrians when hit by a car is the distance between the bonnet and the engine. Cars now have higher bonnet lines to increase the distance as most head injuries were caused by hitting the top of the engine even though the bonnet would have been in between. What the bonnet is made of is of no consequence other than reducing the weight of the vehicle.
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I believed they'd also ensured the design of the engine compartment was also made smoother (less sharp objects sticking up).
 
Phil V said:
I believed they'd also ensured the design of the engine compartment was also made smoother (less sharp objects sticking up).
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Hence the prolific use of engine covers other than reducing engine noise too.
 
Byker28i said:
Great car in the US, comfy, fun, not a huge amount of room in the rear and a reasonable boot.
Quite a big car, not sure how it would work in some roads in the UK

15 ft 8 inches long, 6ft 10 wide. Length is ok but it's quite wide?
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6'10 wide! That's wider than a sprinter or transit van. That's getting on as wide as a caravan which are about 7'.
 
rjbell said:
6'10 wide! That's wider than a sprinter or transit van. That's getting on as wide as a caravan which are about 7'.
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New Mondeo is 6'11" so it's no bigger than a large family car.
 
nilagin said:
But it's not 4 times, it's 40 times the limit. I can only speak for Ford as they issued this http://www.at.ford.com/news/cn/Pages/VWDefeatDevice.aspx have claimed that they have not cheated their emissions tests and the measures they have taken to meet emissions works all the time, where as the VW emission control only works under test conditions. I'm not aware of any other manufacturers response to this. What VW has done doesn't just have an effect on emissions, once customers cars have been rectified, it will also reduce economy and performance. Also the urea tank will now require topping up which is £200-300, unless VW are going to keep giving free refills for existing owners, then people will be getting some expensive bills once in a while.
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I cannot believe that a vw engine is 40 times more pollutant than a ford?
 
cambsno said:
I cannot believe that a vw engine is 40 times more pollutant than a ford?
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You are right, it's not, it will be more. The Ford will be below the allowed limit,The Ford's would be below the allowed limit except Ford don't sell diesel cars in the US only large vans, pick ups and trucks, the VW without the emissions control working has been found to be 40 times the limit. It's only under the specific test conditions that the software detects, then emission control kicks in and brings the emissions down to within limits.
 
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Not being a fan of diesels, I'd not heard of urea injection till it came up here. Do we know if it is specifically in relation to that system that this VW cheat software works? In which case it's surely no different to the owner not filling the tank?
 
nilagin said:
New Mondeo is 6'11" so it's no bigger than a large family car.
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Which always makes me smile when mondeo man goes on about the Chelsea tractors etc. In taking up actually road space it is pretty good going, yet people don't seem to see it that way.

It makes out GL looks small :p
 
Alan Clogwyn said:
Not being a fan of diesels, I'd not heard of urea injection till it came up here. Do we know if it is specifically in relation to that system that this VW cheat software works? In which case it's surely no different to the owner not filling the tank?
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I think Mercedes uses the same system but it is called bluetec. And actually quite a few HGV use adblue as well ;) I think we've only just seen the tip of this iceberg.
 
nilagin said:
New Mondeo is 6'11" so it's no bigger than a large family car.
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The mondeo estate was/is huge though. I was comparing to my Mazda 6 tourer which is only 6 foot wide.
Lovely car though the mustang.
 

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Alan Clogwyn said:
Not being a fan of diesels, I'd not heard of urea injection till it came up here. Do we know if it is specifically in relation to that system that this VW cheat software works? In which case it's surely no different to the owner not filling the tank?
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Yes that is how the VW cheat software works. If the tank is empty, every time the system tries to inject the urea, the engine will go into limp mode. Lorries have been using urea injection to reduce nox levels a lot longer than cars, it's not a relatively new method.
 
dejongj said:
Which always makes me smile when mondeo man goes on about the Chelsea tractors etc. In taking up actually road space it is pretty good going, yet people don't seem to see it that way.

It makes out GL looks small :p
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The Mondeo is 117mm shorter and 6mm narrower, how can it make a GL look small. Admittedly the latter ones are bigger than the Mk3 Mondeo, but they are still not that big,
 
nilagin said:
The Mondeo is 117mm shorter and 6mm narrower, how can it make a GL look small. Admittedly the latter ones are bigger than the Mk3 Mondeo, but they are still not that big,
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I think you may have missed the emoticon ;)
 
Phil V said:
An aside - the aluminium bonnet freaked me out......
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PMSL @ my Sis & BIL, in June.
They have a Peugeot (308?) & got on the ferry over to France for their hols. He bought one of the GB magnetic plates on board (rip off price too) ............. couldn't get it to stay in place. o_O
My Sis said there were quite a few folk (inc crew) having a good laaaaarf at him. :LOL:
 
Here is the official reaction back at the HQ

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKef1JFpiCA


If you think hard enough these cars pollute probably less than hardened smokers. b******t. They need to stop talking s*** and just push electric tech harder.
 
I think there are a number of issues here. America hate diesels and the majority of American motorists support large petrol engines. Petrol is a lot cheaper in America and has greater availability when compared to petrol. Secondly, they cannot be the only ones to have this system in place. I am sure that with a bit more digging more issues will come to light with lots of other manufacturers having similar systems in other parts of the world. One thing for sure, this is going to cost VW. I don't think the brand itself will be tarnished as they have a good name for reliability however, from a fines perspective and potentially on going replacement costs they could be looking at mega bucks.
 
Dylanlewis2000 said:
I think there are a number of issues here. America hate diesels and the majority of American motorists support large petrol engines. Petrol is a lot cheaper in America and has greater availability when compared to petrol. Secondly, they cannot be the only ones to have this system in place. I am sure that with a bit more digging more issues will come to light with lots of other manufacturers having similar systems in other parts of the world. One thing for sure, this is going to cost VW. I don't think the brand itself will be tarnished as they have a good name for reliability however, from a fines perspective and potentially on going replacement costs they could be looking at mega bucks.
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How do you know Americans hate diesels, they don't really have enough diesel cars on sale to form that opinion. Ford don't sell any diesel powered cars in America, they reserve diesel power for their large pick up trucks. lorries and vans. Petrol engines are getting smaller in America too. Ford introduced the Ecoboost engines out in America before we got them in Europe, admittedly there's were of a larger capacity at first, but then you can't replace a V8 with a 1.6 or 2.0. They have however replaced some of their V8's, or as an optional alternative, with a V6, which is more powerful, lower emissions and a lot more economical and they are doing quite well. The fact is an independent test in America, has found VW have cheated the emissions figures, something that under current EU tests would never have shown up. VW have also admitted to have cheated. VW's shares have already taken a big hit, their worth has been seriously damaged and that is before any costs for fixing the issue or any fines. Even after the fines will customers receive any sort of compensation, as the cars economy and performance will be reduced, the cars will no longer be what the owners bought into under those terms.
As for reliability, I have a workmate who worked, up until a February, in a VW/Audi dealership, their is a certain petrol engine in the range that likes to melt it's pistons, he was performing compression checks several times a week on cars with that engine and none without exception had suffered the same fate. Then there is the coil pack issue they had several years ago, so many coil packs were failing, dealers couldn't get hold of enough to replace them. They would only replace coil packs as they failed, knowing full well the car would be back within a week, maybe a month for another coil pack to be replaced and so on and so on until they had replaced all the coil packs. Then their is the Passat diesel wiring loom failure issue of several years ago where once the loom failed the injectors are no longer controlled and keep fuelling and the engine can not be controlled and it eventually breaks.
 
nilagin said:
How do you know Americans hate diesels, they don't really have enough diesel cars on sale to form that opinion. Ford don't sell any diesel powered cars in America, they reserve diesel power for their large pick up trucks. lorries and vans. Petrol engines are getting smaller in America too. Ford introduced the Ecoboost engines out in America before we got them in Europe, admittedly there's were of a larger capacity at first, but then you can't replace a V8 with a 1.6 or 2.0. They have however replaced some of their V8's, or as an optional alternative, with a V6, which is more powerful, lower emissions and a lot more economical and they are doing quite well. The fact is an independent test in America, has found VW have cheated the emissions figures, something that under current EU tests would never have shown up. VW have also admitted to have cheated. VW's shares have already taken a big hit, their worth has been seriously damaged and that is before any costs for fixing the issue or any fines. Even after the fines will customers receive any sort of compensation, as the cars economy and performance will be reduced, the cars will no longer be what the owners bought into under those terms.
As for reliability, I have a workmate who worked, up until a February, in a VW/Audi dealership, their is a certain petrol engine in the range that likes to melt it's pistons, he was performing compression checks several times a week on cars with that engine and none without exception had suffered the same fate. Then there is the coil pack issue they had several years ago, so many coil packs were failing, dealers couldn't get hold of enough to replace them. They would only replace coil packs as they failed, knowing full well the car would be back within a week, maybe a month for another coil pack to be replaced and so on and so on until they had replaced all the coil packs. Then their is the Passat diesel wiring loom failure issue of several years ago where once the loom failed the injectors are no longer controlled and keep fuelling and the engine can not be controlled and it eventually breaks.
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That is not wholly accurate. I learned about the coil pack issue the hard way in my Audi with ASN engine. And was pleasantly surprised that the RAC actually carried a coil for my engine in the vehicle. Then I had a second go about two weeks later, again RAC on the road helped me out. Then a burglary happened and my car keys got stolen (but not the car), so I had them decoded at Audi. When it was in for that, they also noted I had the affected coil packs but as I didn't have it serviced at Audi it was never replaced. So at 9 years old they changed all six of them, free of charge. As they should.

Actively employing software to bypass emission test is not good, and I understand criminal charges are likely on its way as well. However the rest is just clouding the issue in your usual pro-Ford anything stance...
 
Tesla's new car ad
L9onuyD.jpg
 
hehehe love that, very clever. That car is very depedent on the right colour choice, and that looks lovely...
 
nilagin said:
You are right, it's not, it will be more. The Ford will be below the allowed limit,The Ford's would be below the allowed limit except Ford don't sell diesel cars in the US only large vans, pick ups and trucks, the VW without the emissions control working has been found to be 40 times the limit. It's only under the specific test conditions that the software detects, then emission control kicks in and brings the emissions down to within limits.
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I still dont get it - my very simple (non technical) thinking is struggling with this. Take a typical 2.0 TDI from all companies - am guessing that most will be in the 135-170 bhp range, and all have similar combined mpg of 55-65. Some will me more, some less. While VW may pollute more than another, I cant believe that theirs is 40x more than anyone elses - so if Fords pollution mark is 10, BMWs may be 14 and VW 400?

Thats like saying that a Samsung 40" TV will use 40 times the energy of a similar Sony or LG model?
 
cambsno said:
I still dont get it - my very simple (non technical) thinking is struggling with this. Take a typical 2.0 TDI from all companies - am guessing that most will be in the 135-170 bhp range, and all have similar combined mpg of 55-65. Some will me more, some less. While VW may pollute more than another, I cant believe that theirs is 40x more than anyone elses - so if Fords pollution mark is 10, BMWs may be 14 and VW 400?

Thats like saying that a Samsung 40" TV will use 40 times the energy of a similar Sony or LG model?
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Yes, but only with regards to NOx emissions.
 
nilagin said:
Yes that is how the VW cheat software works. If the tank is empty, every time the system tries to inject the urea, the engine will go into limp mode. Lorries have been using urea injection to reduce nox levels a lot longer than cars, it's not a relatively new method.
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Ahh, that'd do it - I wondered how they were going to keep you locked into buying their Adblue additive.
 
Alan Clogwyn said:
Yes, but only with regards to NOx emissions.
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40x must be only at peak of load (I.e. When turbo is very hard at work). No2 is produced dueto very high operating temperatures.
You may need to look to Mercedes integrated turbo tech to see much difference. Or go electric.
 
The yanks don't hate diesels they just have no reason to like them and I don't blame them, diesel is dirty regardless of what the "defend diesel squad say" take also the fact that an F150 V6 Petrol with nice extras costs from $26k and quick googles got that down to about $21k as link below when a basic VW Passat TDI starts at about $29k why would you?

Petrol is like 68 cents a litre which is about 40p

http://www.ford.com/trucks/f150/trim/xl/
 
Mr Bump said:
The yanks don't hate diesels they just have no reason to like them and I don't blame them, diesel is dirty regardless of what the "defend diesel squad say" take also the fact that an F150 V6 Petrol with nice extras costs from $26k and quick googles got that down to about $21k as link below when a basic VW Passat TDI starts at about $29k why would you?

Petrol is like 68 cents a litre which is about 40p

http://www.ford.com/trucks/f150/trim/xl/
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I agree with that. I'm still amazed how quickly the UK has turned. I recall when I came to the UK in the mid-nineties that there really wasn't much love for diesel despite some cracking vehicles and engines already available. Move forward 20 years and many people who have no need for a diesel whatsoever seem to swear by it. I really don't understand it, surely people aren't really that gullible? There are so many fantastic petrol engines available that would work so well.
 
Llamaman said:
Yes.
I cite homeopathy, astrology, pyramid schemes, and the anti-vax movement.
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Anti VAX :eek: I love my orange vax, it is brilliant at sucking anything, I use it for all the dirty jobs. Henry may have got the reputation and recognition but VAX gets the job done.
 
Mr Bump said:
The yanks don't hate diesels they just have no reason to like them and I don't blame them, diesel is dirty regardless of what the "defend diesel squad say"
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like it or not, my 2.0 TDI VW for example emits the same CO2 as a much newer 2.0l Petrol BMW.

take also the fact that an F150 V6 Petrol with nice extras costs from $26k and quick googles got that down to about $21k as link below when a basic VW Passat TDI starts at about $29k why would you?
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personally because i doubt the F150 V6 can do 50+MPG. in fact they appear to do about 15-22 (depending on which version V6). but like you say, fuel in america is cheap so its likely that they just dont care.

put petrol at a similar cost to here and i'm sure that picture would change.
 
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The dirty diesel thing is not just emissions, its handling the stuff as well, the yanks find it a dirty fuel for those reasons as well.
 
Mr Bump said:
The yanks don't hate diesels they just have no reason to like them and I don't blame them, diesel is dirty regardless of what the "defend diesel squad say" take also the fact that an F150 V6 Petrol with nice extras costs from $26k and quick googles got that down to about $21k as link below when a basic VW Passat TDI starts at about $29k why would you?

Petrol is like 68 cents a litre which is about 40p

http://www.ford.com/trucks/f150/trim/xl/
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Fuel was $2.50 to around $2.95 depending where you bought it for the US gallon a couple of weeks ago. Labour day weekend they were advertising the Mustangs from $32K
 
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