VW no doing so well, Ja?

Mr Bump

Mr Bump

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Interested to see where the VW troubles will go. Naughty Germans been fiddling the emissions checks.
I hope we now see more of a focus on diesel emissions in the environment. I'm not a diesel hater but I am not a lover anymore by a long shot.
 
I'd bet most of them are at it. Volvo were in trouble over something similar as well.

There have been a few reports into real world emissions and from one rest I read only one model of 15 that were tested actually met the actual emissions standard they were supposed to meet. That's dismal! The real world emissions for modern petrol cars were also at variance with their rated emissions too.
 
I agree with that for sure, the whole system needs radical attention,
 
I would think all of them are at it also. Easy way to meet the difference in regulations between countries
 
I read that fiat had emissions problems on the 500, they had to adjust them to meet the numbers which meant they wouldn't go up hills
 
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I think some big fines coming and they need to shake up there ideas. These companies make billions and the focus should be on the environment and not so much shareholders.
 
Mr Bump said:
I think some big fines coming and they need to shake up there ideas. These companies make billions and the focus should be on the environment and not so much shareholders.
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They can't though. The emissions standards are political, the physics required to meet them whilst maintaining a nice drive are nigh on impossible.

The bottom line is that we either get used to the fact that our favoured method of transport is a dirty toy that's killing the planet, or we re-think our transport requirements in favour of the planet.

The oil company lobby in the 80s got us to this point, I fear we set off down the wrong road.
 
I don't know much about the physics as I am an IT pro but I am pretty sure we could engineer cars to be cleaner they would just cost more :-)
 
Hybrids are probably the best answer. The EU should halt all diesel vehicle sales until each manufacturer can prove they are meeting the standards.

VW saying cars are picked at random off the production line is a nonsense. If they all have this software fiddle installed anyway then it doesn't matter which one is chosen!
 
VW are bound to use some Lupo'le to get emissions to passat the test as it would beetle their advantage. The other car manufacturers can Golf uck themselves. Up! yours mate.

Where did I put my tablets?
 
neil_g said:
of course we can, but theres far too much money to be made from the black stuff.
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There is and that will not change for sure, but we as consumers need to have trust in the companies when we choose to buy a product which is advertised as being better for the environment, its a trust issue mainly for me.
 
Mr Bump said:
There is and that will not change for sure, but we as consumers need to have trust in the companies when we choose to buy a product which is advertised as being better for the environment, its a trust issue mainly for me.
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absolutely.

however GM have been sabotaging cleaner travel since the 90s.

plus then you run into things like are electric cars really a cleaner alternative? that electric needs to come from somewhere, and with our reluctance to seek renewable energy, chances are it comes from the big coal burners. or the big toxic waste producing plants.
 
neil_g said:
absolutely.

however GM have been sabotaging cleaner travel since the 90s.

plus then you run into things like are electric cars really a cleaner alternative? that electric needs to come from somewhere, and with our reluctance to seek renewable energy, chances are it comes from the big coal burners. or the big toxic waste producing plants.
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Which is where petrol and diesel refineries also get their energy from...
 
Some big tax bills coming peoples way as well, since it's now based on emissions... I can hear the sounds of popping corks in the Treasury...
 
Llamaman said:
Some big tax bills coming peoples way as well, since it's now based on emissions... I can hear the sounds of popping corks in the Treasury...
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Cant imagine the "people" having to pay for this. VW might have to though. No fault of the punters that the emissions arent correct is it.
 
Llamaman said:
Some big tax bills coming peoples way as well, since it's now based on emissions... I can hear the sounds of popping corks in the Treasury...
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I can't imagine the government being able to adjust this much in the short term, but it may mean down the line REAL TESTS being introduced and people being surprised how dirty their clean diesels really are being reflected in the tax especially company car drivers who have been VW addicts for years.
 
DorsetDude said:
Cant imagine the "people" having to pay for this. VW might have to though. No fault of the punters that the emissions arent correct is it.
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It's self-assessment though. It's your responsibility to make sure the information upon which you base your tax is right. In this case, you have a legitimate excuse to avoid a penalty, but that doesn't abrogate the responsibility to pay the underlying tax.

However, I suspect the government will fear an almighty outrage from the Telegraph if HMRC chase this, so orders will be handed down from the Treasury to quietly forget about it. They'll claim VW are paying for the tax in their fine.
 
If the manufacturer has been lying then it isn't the fault of the end user at all! The manufacturer should either a) make the vehicle conform to the emissions standards or b) pay the excess tax due. The tax rates are published. The car owner pays those prices. They can't be held accountable for a cheating manufacturer. I'd assume this fiddling software also works under MOT test conditions otherwise all 3 year old VWs would fail MOTs on emissions.
 
I think the cars involved were fiddled to meet stricter emissions controls than Euro compliant according to the news.
The UK/Euro cars don't have issues as our testing is pretty out of date and poor.

I think in US especially California they are really strict and this is where the fiddle came to light.
 
Y
Mr Bump said:
I think the cars involved were fiddled to meet stricter emissions controls than Euro compliant according to the news.
The UK/Euro cars don't have issues as our testing is pretty out of date and poor.

I think in US especially California they are really strict and this is where the fiddle came to light.
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Yes, according to someone on R4 this morning, here in the UK it's only pre-production models that are tested for emissions, and it's the motor industry that pays the testers, and the tests are carried out in their own laboratories...

In the USA the tests are carried out properly, hence the software "adjustment" to meet the required standards.
 
Its actually quite nice to see the yanks doing the right thing with testing diesel vehicles, result :-)

We should bring much more testing like this to our country, it would increase the levels of maintenance some dirty diesel drivers neglect and massively improve air quality in cities.
 
srichards said:
If the manufacturer has been lying then it isn't the fault of the end user at all!
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You've misunderstood how self assessment works. You are responsible for the information on your tax return, no-one else (not even your accountant). If the return is incorrect because someone has provided you with incorrect information, that is between you and the third party, not between HMRC and the third party. You need to pay the tax that is due, and then recover it from the third party if appropriate.

In particular, I'd point you in the direction of Taxes Management Act 1970, s29(3)b.

In this particular instance, though, it would appear that taxpayers could claim that because the figures comes from the Vehicle Certification Agency, which is endorsed by HMRC, one could make the claim that the emissions figures are - by proxy - HMRC figures, and thus have statutory force.
This is only a matter of interest for tax nerds however, since HMRC will surely waive any back taxes and probably future taxes on vehicles already registered too.
 
Llamaman said:
It's self-assessment though. It's your responsibility to make sure the information upon which you base your tax is right. In this case, you have a legitimate excuse to avoid a penalty, but that doesn't abrogate the responsibility to pay the underlying tax.

However, I suspect the government will fear an almighty outrage from the Telegraph if HMRC chase this, so orders will be handed down from the Treasury to quietly forget about it. They'll claim VW are paying for the tax in their fine.
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WHAT? Have you ever filled in a self assessment for vehicle emissions?
Or have you ever been asked about vehicle emissions on your normal self assessment?

What about people that don't complete a self assessment?

Do you see how silly your post sounds?
 
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Having just returned from the US where fuel was $2.50 a gallon, they've no incentive at the moment.
As for faking the results, I bet all manufacturers do it. My new Mazda 6 has a point at 55mph where you can hold it steady on a flat road and it shows 86mpg on the barely touching the throttle. I've often thought it has a couple of points probably designed around the European tests.
 
VW just announced 11 million cars worldwide affected!
 
Llamaman said:
It's self-assessment though. It's your responsibility to make sure the information upon which you base your tax is right. In this case, you have a legitimate excuse to avoid a penalty, but that doesn't abrogate the responsibility to pay the underlying tax.

However, I suspect the government will fear an almighty outrage from the Telegraph if HMRC chase this, so orders will be handed down from the Treasury to quietly forget about it. They'll claim VW are paying for the tax in their fine.
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???? No it is not. It is linked automatically to the v5 issued by the dvla which determines the road fund license or duty whatever it is these days.

That then gets carried forward as well and will be part of your benefit in kind liability where discounts may have been applied. Possibly on a company return as well.

So whilst there is an element of self assessment, there first needs to be an official statement regarding the reclassification of emissions bracket, which in return results in a possible but not guaranteed change in taxation.

I would argue that there would be a very valid case to then have a claim against the manufacturer for false stating the figures. As such it would be a much easier route to come to an agreement and a settlement with VW opposed to individuals.

Amazing that such a culture existed that allowed this to happen. Even more amazing that a company has gone so public on the record that they screwed up (their language).
 
I can see calls for stricter testing and I wouldn't be surprised if the next wave of models simply carry higher emissions figures which the tax man will love :-)

But the environment will still suffer :-(
 
DorsetDude said:
Cant imagine the "people" having to pay for this. VW might have to though. No fault of the punters that the emissions arent correct is it.
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The "people" pay for everything. All costs get passed on one way or another the money will come out of consumer's pockets sooner or later..
 
Mr Bump said:
I can see calls for stricter testing and I wouldn't be surprised if the next wave of models simply carry higher emissions figures which the tax man will love :)

But the environment will still suffer :-(
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The environment will suffer no more than it is already - just now people will know about it!
And yes, HMRC will be pleased at the additional revenue, but the Environment Minister will now have to revise all the emissions targets...
 
Yep and people though will once again head for cars with cheaper emissions tax which wiedly is why so many people bought expensive German diesels in the first place :-)
 
dejongj said:
Amazing that such a culture existed that allowed this to happen.
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I'm not amazed, or even that surprised. The rhetoric that it was only the banks doing this kind of thing has always been nonsense.

The regulation wasn't rigorous enough - and once people realize that, it's only a matter of time before companies start 'kicking the tyres' of what they can get away with. The more they get away with, the more they push it. Until one day, you've got senior traders openly discussing on chat rooms rigging a major market, or engineers knowingly fixing emissions results. I'm sure they'd have rigged the crash-test results if they could...
 
ecoleman said:
WHAT? Have you ever filled in a self assessment for vehicle emissions?
Or have you ever been asked about vehicle emissions on your normal self assessment?

What about people that don't complete a self assessment?

Do you see how silly your post sounds?
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The emissions banding will determine the value on your P11D. Employers should check the figure is right with you before submitting it to HMRC. Even if it is believed to be incorrect at the time of filing, if you subsequently discover it to be wrong, you need to make sure HMRC is informed.
Even if you didn't complete a return or pay the tax to HMRC directly, it is still you who pays it (via PAYE) and thus it is your liability - which means you are ultimately on the hook for any extra tax due to error. Usually the employer will correct via a revised P11D, but it's not their tax liability, it's the employee's. That makes it your problem.

However as I already said, this is purely a hypothetical point, since a) it may not effect anyone's banding in the UK, and b) for political and practical reasons, HMRC will almost certainly waive any past and future liability arising.
 
I'm sure this will kick all of the big car manufacturers up the backside to make an effort of being a bit cleverer when lying about their emissions in future..
 
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