- Messages
- 20,926
- Name
- Steve
- Edit My Images
- Yes
and please use their services
Victim of crime? Solve it yourself
- Thread starter SFTPhotography
- Start date
Bernie174
Suspended / Banned
- Messages
- 2,719
- Name
- Bernie
- Edit My Images
- Yes
Oh dear........
That's what happens when politics get involved in Policing.
While it's true to say that there's sometimes no point or purpose in investigating a crime, that's really not the point and there should at least be a token effort.
Interesting the BBC mention theft of petrol, which in the time I was a Policeman was to be recorded as a crime, then it wasn't, then it was, then it wasn't. Those were the home office's instructions. After a while you loose track!
That's what happens when politics get involved in Policing.
While it's true to say that there's sometimes no point or purpose in investigating a crime, that's really not the point and there should at least be a token effort.
Interesting the BBC mention theft of petrol, which in the time I was a Policeman was to be recorded as a crime, then it wasn't, then it was, then it wasn't. Those were the home office's instructions. After a while you loose track!
Some interesting and disturbing stories of this happening on Jeremy Vine show today.
One in particular where a jacket (complete with wallet) was taken from the back of a chair in the pub. Despite CCTV clear image of offender Police were not interested. The victim, supported by the pub, identified the offender, found his address and where he worked. Police still not interested. They got jacket and wallet back via offender's employer. Still no action by Police.
I'm not sure I agree that politics alone can be blamed. I know an ex. PC who left because of the inability to do the job due to the interference of those above.
One in particular where a jacket (complete with wallet) was taken from the back of a chair in the pub. Despite CCTV clear image of offender Police were not interested. The victim, supported by the pub, identified the offender, found his address and where he worked. Police still not interested. They got jacket and wallet back via offender's employer. Still no action by Police.
I'm not sure I agree that politics alone can be blamed. I know an ex. PC who left because of the inability to do the job due to the interference of those above.
Byker28i
Suspended / Banned
- Messages
- 21,339
- Edit My Images
- Yes
You can't have poor crime clear up records if it's not recorded as a crime. Come on Bernie, you know the game 
I was once told that anything less than 3 hours wasn't recorded as a crime in official statistics.
Ultimately we get what we pay for, if we reduce funding then we get reduced service. Same with combining the call centers. It's no surprise that response times are now poor.
I was once told that anything less than 3 hours wasn't recorded as a crime in official statistics.
Ultimately we get what we pay for, if we reduce funding then we get reduced service. Same with combining the call centers. It's no surprise that response times are now poor.
OP
- Messages
- 20,926
- Name
- Steve
- Edit My Images
- Yes
Really, that's an easy theft arrest. Maybe the police were scared of being accused of something ending in ist if the perp was a minority of some description or they were all too busy setting speed traps so the commissioner could say they were being 0 tolerance on speeding
Surprised.
OP
- Messages
- 20,926
- Name
- Steve
- Edit My Images
- Yes
I suspect its because they are told to pursue certain lines of crime and not deal with others. A shambles, yes, but not the man on the beats fault.
beyond the blue
Suspended / Banned
- Messages
- 2,036
- Name
- Neil
- Edit My Images
- Yes
If we are expected to do the investigative work, It's a pity we don't have the right of sentence to go with it!
Garry Edwards
Moderator
- Messages
- 13,475
- Name
- Garry Edwards
- Edit My Images
- No
I think that, most of the time, we can't blame ordinary police officers for this.
We can blame the politicians for not giving them enough resources for them to do their job, and/or we can blame their senior officers for allocating their limited resources for things that don't matter (for example luxury cars for senior officers) and/or for downgrading offences so that they look less important in the statistics.
But, at the end of the day, if we want the police to be efficient and to have a high clear up rate then we, as taxpayers, have to make sure that they have the tools they need to do their job.
We can blame the politicians for not giving them enough resources for them to do their job, and/or we can blame their senior officers for allocating their limited resources for things that don't matter (for example luxury cars for senior officers) and/or for downgrading offences so that they look less important in the statistics.
But, at the end of the day, if we want the police to be efficient and to have a high clear up rate then we, as taxpayers, have to make sure that they have the tools they need to do their job.
viv1969
Suspended / Banned
- Messages
- 29,452
- Name
- Bat-Frog
- Edit My Images
- No
To be fair, The police have no power to sentence either.
- Messages
- 114,434
- Name
- The real Chris
- Edit My Images
- No
Agreed, but surely this is one step closer to "us" becoming "vigilantes" ?
Scenario, "Anything gets stolen from me, and sure, I'll investigate it, with the help of a couple of "very large mates"
- Messages
- 114,434
- Name
- The real Chris
- Edit My Images
- No
OP
- Messages
- 20,926
- Name
- Steve
- Edit My Images
- Yes
I'd be cool with that but suddenly the police would be interested in arresting you and getting the CPS to pursue a case.
Or perhaps they could just give me access to all the databases available to the police, to 'assist me in my enquiries'? I rather like that idea...
- Messages
- 114,434
- Name
- The real Chris
- Edit My Images
- No
Bernie174
Suspended / Banned
- Messages
- 2,719
- Name
- Bernie
- Edit My Images
- Yes
Its not how old it is at time of reporting.
Take a burglary, for example. Back doors banjo'd, some cash taken, or the TV. No serial number of the TV known. Back garden isn't overlooked, neighbors all out anyway. What have you got? nowt!
So yes, it goes in the crime book as a Burglary, but nothing more's ever going to get done, simply because there isn't anything more, unless someone's nicked and puts their hands up.
In the old days, we would go round make some sympathetic noises, knock on a few doors, get no where record it, classify it as Burglary-Residential. End of game.
The only real difference is that now you'd be unlikely to see a policeman, it would all happen on the phone.
So that's the first part of what this report is all about, not really doing any investigation. But to be fair, in most cases there isn't anything to investigate, its a pure PR stunt if Police go round. Should they do the PR? Yes, in my opinion, it achieves nothing but makes the victim feel better.
The second part is more of a worry.
So historically, PC turns up at a crime (we used to get called to attend them all then!). Lets say its taking a motor vehicle, TWOC to the carrot cruncher s, TDA to us London lads.was
And lets say that its at an airport, and its was apparently taken from the multi story car park. Lets say the pilot who owns the car is insistent it was taken, but the enterprising Constable, knowing full well that its almost impossible to steal that type of car goes for a look and finds it on the floor below, intact, no damage, still locked with nothing taken from it.
Is that a crime? no, of course not, common sense says the numpty forgot where he parked it, so no crime report, no crime to report.
But, the rules have now changed, common sense no longer applies. But what does come into play is the crime stats game, which is silliness.
So all crime allegations should be reported ( a bit silly, see the above example, but that's the rules), its what happens then that's the problem. Chief Constables and their yes men, sorry, I mean senior management team are all judged on efficiency, which means cost saving and crimes solved. It does not look good for them if there are lots of burglary's, or crime soars, as the Home Secretary has lied, sorry, I mean told the world that crime is down. So down it must be. Burglary becomes walk in theft, unless there's a prisoner for it, which means its a clear up, robbery becomes theft and assault. And so it goes on.
Ok, so why are crimes not being reported. John pushes Fred after they come out of the pub. It's an assault, in theory. But is it really? Come on, is that worth any investigation or should they act like grown ups?
The problem though is that for example, a theft, becomes property lost. That's wrong, but has been going on for years. I don't agree with it, I think doing that is criminal in itself, but it wasn't happening at my rank, it was way way higher up.
So, I agree, its very wrong whats going on. There's too much political interference in Policing, and it will never get better until that stops. The Political correctness needs to stop, and that way things like the child sex scandal wouldn't happen. Crime reporting needs to go back to common sense, and be simplified, my example of 'theft' of petrol being an example of that, its a crime this week, next week it will be a civil matter, the week after, who knows!
Take a burglary, for example. Back doors banjo'd, some cash taken, or the TV. No serial number of the TV known. Back garden isn't overlooked, neighbors all out anyway. What have you got? nowt!
So yes, it goes in the crime book as a Burglary, but nothing more's ever going to get done, simply because there isn't anything more, unless someone's nicked and puts their hands up.
In the old days, we would go round make some sympathetic noises, knock on a few doors, get no where record it, classify it as Burglary-Residential. End of game.
The only real difference is that now you'd be unlikely to see a policeman, it would all happen on the phone.
So that's the first part of what this report is all about, not really doing any investigation. But to be fair, in most cases there isn't anything to investigate, its a pure PR stunt if Police go round. Should they do the PR? Yes, in my opinion, it achieves nothing but makes the victim feel better.
The second part is more of a worry.
So historically, PC turns up at a crime (we used to get called to attend them all then!). Lets say its taking a motor vehicle, TWOC to the carrot cruncher s, TDA to us London lads.was
And lets say that its at an airport, and its was apparently taken from the multi story car park. Lets say the pilot who owns the car is insistent it was taken, but the enterprising Constable, knowing full well that its almost impossible to steal that type of car goes for a look and finds it on the floor below, intact, no damage, still locked with nothing taken from it.
Is that a crime? no, of course not, common sense says the numpty forgot where he parked it, so no crime report, no crime to report.
But, the rules have now changed, common sense no longer applies. But what does come into play is the crime stats game, which is silliness.
So all crime allegations should be reported ( a bit silly, see the above example, but that's the rules), its what happens then that's the problem. Chief Constables and their yes men, sorry, I mean senior management team are all judged on efficiency, which means cost saving and crimes solved. It does not look good for them if there are lots of burglary's, or crime soars, as the Home Secretary has lied, sorry, I mean told the world that crime is down. So down it must be. Burglary becomes walk in theft, unless there's a prisoner for it, which means its a clear up, robbery becomes theft and assault. And so it goes on.
Ok, so why are crimes not being reported. John pushes Fred after they come out of the pub. It's an assault, in theory. But is it really? Come on, is that worth any investigation or should they act like grown ups?
The problem though is that for example, a theft, becomes property lost. That's wrong, but has been going on for years. I don't agree with it, I think doing that is criminal in itself, but it wasn't happening at my rank, it was way way higher up.
So, I agree, its very wrong whats going on. There's too much political interference in Policing, and it will never get better until that stops. The Political correctness needs to stop, and that way things like the child sex scandal wouldn't happen. Crime reporting needs to go back to common sense, and be simplified, my example of 'theft' of petrol being an example of that, its a crime this week, next week it will be a civil matter, the week after, who knows!
RD400
Suspended / Banned
- Messages
- 693
- Name
- Michael
- Edit My Images
- Yes
They say that they don't have the time for small acts crimes but if you did do all the leg work and found out who committed the criminal act and you then carried out your own judgement and punishment then you'd find yourself in trouble with the law .
Also if the local neighbour hood watch started to patrol there area and started to take the law into there own hands to keep the acts of crime down in there own area bet it wouldn't be long before the police put a stop to it .
And as I'am getting things off my chest how many of us see the police sat in a vans waiting for speeding motorist with there speed guns all day sometimes .
Also if the local neighbour hood watch started to patrol there area and started to take the law into there own hands to keep the acts of crime down in there own area bet it wouldn't be long before the police put a stop to it .
And as I'am getting things off my chest how many of us see the police sat in a vans waiting for speeding motorist with there speed guns all day sometimes .
Bernie174
Suspended / Banned
- Messages
- 2,719
- Name
- Bernie
- Edit My Images
- Yes
2 different things.
There's a vast difference between finding the criminal and handing out your own punishment. No one's suggesting that you should or need to do the latter.
So of course you'd be in trouble with the law if you did, which would mean less Police doing what you pay them for, because they'd then have to deal with you as well.
Oh, and the there's a principle here that everyone has missed. The Police exist because you, the public have the responsibility for crime prevention and abdicated it. The fact we now have a body to prevent and detect crime does not excuse the public from that responsibility. However, it hasn't since the hue and cry, included punishment.
Speeding is a crime, like it or not. There's a real easy way to stop 'van' loads of police (and I have never seen this spectacle, in spite of being a Policeman for many years), and thats not to speed, that way they could devote their time to dealing with other crime. 'Proper' crime is much more fun to deal with than listening to drivers winning, because they can't see that their predicament is no ones fault but their own, or taking the longest walk in the world to tell someone their nearest and dearest in never coming home, because some numskull with no training or ability to drive fast decided he did.
There's a vast difference between finding the criminal and handing out your own punishment. No one's suggesting that you should or need to do the latter.
So of course you'd be in trouble with the law if you did, which would mean less Police doing what you pay them for, because they'd then have to deal with you as well.
Oh, and the there's a principle here that everyone has missed. The Police exist because you, the public have the responsibility for crime prevention and abdicated it. The fact we now have a body to prevent and detect crime does not excuse the public from that responsibility. However, it hasn't since the hue and cry, included punishment.
Speeding is a crime, like it or not. There's a real easy way to stop 'van' loads of police (and I have never seen this spectacle, in spite of being a Policeman for many years), and thats not to speed, that way they could devote their time to dealing with other crime. 'Proper' crime is much more fun to deal with than listening to drivers winning, because they can't see that their predicament is no ones fault but their own, or taking the longest walk in the world to tell someone their nearest and dearest in never coming home, because some numskull with no training or ability to drive fast decided he did.
- Messages
- 20,964
- Name
- Pete
- Edit My Images
- Yes
well ive just solved the speeding problem past our house with a tube of no nails and some plasterboard screws - I'm sure the police will be delighted 
(for the hard of thinking this isnt absolutely true)
(for the hard of thinking this isnt absolutely true)
OP
- Messages
- 20,926
- Name
- Steve
- Edit My Images
- Yes
Someone mentioned speeding. Once we have "dangerous dogs" and "parking in Glasgow" we can hit the twilight zone 
- Messages
- 20,964
- Name
- Pete
- Edit My Images
- Yes
after Scottish independence the ownership of a dangerous dog will be mandatory in Glasgow to assist in the resolution of parking disputes when dibble isn't interested ( presumably he along with Pugh, Pugh Barley Magrew, Cuthbert and Grub will be too busy drinking down sauchiehall street)
how's that
how's that
- Messages
- 6,206
- Name
- Peter
- Edit My Images
- Yes
It was only a matter of time until speeding came up
As far back as post #5 Ruth and no prizes for guessing who!
they were all too busy setting speed traps so the commissioner could say they were being 0 tolerance on speeding
OP
- Messages
- 20,926
- Name
- Steve
- Edit My Images
- Yes
Guns by means of a duel would settle the dispute easier
Garry Edwards
Moderator
- Messages
- 13,475
- Name
- Garry Edwards
- Edit My Images
- No
Insurance Companies are a funny bunch...
Here on our estate (and no doubt everywhere else too) all the insurance companies insist that we have a Redcare alarm. This means that if there is an intrusion the police are notified automatically, it's a complex and expensive installation and uses both mobile and landline technology to make sure that thieves can't disable the system.
And yet, they know perfectly well that the police ignore these alarms
Here on our estate (and no doubt everywhere else too) all the insurance companies insist that we have a Redcare alarm. This means that if there is an intrusion the police are notified automatically, it's a complex and expensive installation and uses both mobile and landline technology to make sure that thieves can't disable the system.
And yet, they know perfectly well that the police ignore these alarms
OP
- Messages
- 20,926
- Name
- Steve
- Edit My Images
- Yes
I've got a redcare, the police do respond alright. If you get three false alarms within 6 months they will not respond for 6, is what I was told.
Garry Edwards
Moderator
- Messages
- 13,475
- Name
- Garry Edwards
- Edit My Images
- No
I didn't make myself clear - I wasn't talking about domestic alarms, I was talking about business alarm systems. The police attitude to domestic burglaries in my area seems to be excellent, the problem is their attitude towards burglaries at business premises.
I can in fact understand perfectly well why the police don't take them seriously in some (all?) force areas, there are, very often, false positives, even when the alarm has cost many thousands to install.
But the situation is very unsatisfactory for the businesses, forced by the insurance companies to spend all that money on an alarm system that is then ignored by the police.
Personally I have no confidence in alarm systems, I prefer physical security measures. Members of this forum who have been to our warehouse will have seen the very substantial anti ram barriers, the bars on the windows and the very strong doors, all behind security gates, and there are other measures that are much less visible too.
Quite a few years ago I attended a meeting between business owners and the police, there was a lot of dissatisfaction about police non-response and tempers had become short when a neighbouring business was burgled and the police helped the thieves to load up their van
Anyway, the senior officer there said that business owners needed to work in partnership with the police and that this involved making their premises as secure as possible. I wasn't impressed at the time, but he was right - there are no police patrols in business areas, there is no response to alarms and when the police do attend there seems to be no will to solve the crime, so business owners just have to accept this and do everything possible to avoid the problems themselves.
Bernie174
Suspended / Banned
- Messages
- 2,719
- Name
- Bernie
- Edit My Images
- Yes
Ah, thought you meant domestics.
Business though is even more complicated. Again, I can only speak for what used to happen in the Met.
In the first instance, central station alarms, which is what you are talking about used to come through, usually direct to the local station via the Central Control Room at the Yard. We'd go round and in 99.9% of cases the premises were secure and there was no evidence of any attempt to gain entry.
After a couple of calls to premises, if that still applied a warning letter was sent and eventually it went on the banned list. ie, your alarm is no use, get it sorted and we might start going again.
That didn't apply to places like Banks, the Tower of London or places that have very high value property. But then they only really ever went off at 8.30am and 5.30pm, for obvious reasons!
Its not a case of no will to solve crimes. its a matter of what you have to work with, or usually not.
So billy the burglar turns up with his 2 mates in a nicked transit. He's wearing a hoody, so the CCTV isn't helpful. kick in the doors, nick whatever, but they have gloves on, so no fingerprints. back in the van, which they ditch where they know there's no cctv, and they are off and away.
So what's there to work with. No forensics, no identification, so nothing at scene. Yes, you can try cctv between the premises and where the vans dumped, usually thats not going to help. So you are left with the disposal of property end, which may or may not lead anywhere depending on whats nicked. If its the Mona Lisa, then there's a good chance. If its a couple of laptops, then you screwed, they'll be reformatted, all the markings removed and flogged on Gumtree in a couple of days, along with a couple of 100 others, some may be hooky, some not.
The better way of dealing with it is to stop it happening in the first place, better security, most of what I have seen, including in the last 3 companies I've worked for its crap. But that costs money and businesses don't want to spend it. They could employ security guards...ok, moving on....the better bet is making premises more secure.
Business though is even more complicated. Again, I can only speak for what used to happen in the Met.
In the first instance, central station alarms, which is what you are talking about used to come through, usually direct to the local station via the Central Control Room at the Yard. We'd go round and in 99.9% of cases the premises were secure and there was no evidence of any attempt to gain entry.
After a couple of calls to premises, if that still applied a warning letter was sent and eventually it went on the banned list. ie, your alarm is no use, get it sorted and we might start going again.
That didn't apply to places like Banks, the Tower of London or places that have very high value property. But then they only really ever went off at 8.30am and 5.30pm, for obvious reasons!
Its not a case of no will to solve crimes. its a matter of what you have to work with, or usually not.
So billy the burglar turns up with his 2 mates in a nicked transit. He's wearing a hoody, so the CCTV isn't helpful. kick in the doors, nick whatever, but they have gloves on, so no fingerprints. back in the van, which they ditch where they know there's no cctv, and they are off and away.
So what's there to work with. No forensics, no identification, so nothing at scene. Yes, you can try cctv between the premises and where the vans dumped, usually thats not going to help. So you are left with the disposal of property end, which may or may not lead anywhere depending on whats nicked. If its the Mona Lisa, then there's a good chance. If its a couple of laptops, then you screwed, they'll be reformatted, all the markings removed and flogged on Gumtree in a couple of days, along with a couple of 100 others, some may be hooky, some not.
The better way of dealing with it is to stop it happening in the first place, better security, most of what I have seen, including in the last 3 companies I've worked for its crap. But that costs money and businesses don't want to spend it. They could employ security guards...ok, moving on....the better bet is making premises more secure.
Garry Edwards
Moderator
- Messages
- 13,475
- Name
- Garry Edwards
- Edit My Images
- No
Yep, all understood.
I once had a large Company with 20 acres of factories as a client, they had constant problems with theft until they got rid of their security guards and spent the money on physical security - physical security is passive, it just stops thieves getting in, it doesn't start thieving.
Sometimes though, it isn't just that the police can't cope with commercial burglaries, it's down to the local attitude. I once had a studio in the centre of Bradford, in a large building that I owned. When I bought the building I inherited a tenant, an asian food business. He had his own alarm system. One night the alarm was triggered 3 times. The police eventually attended each one, and on the last one the police turned off his alarm because they were convinced that it was faulty. It wasn't faulty at all, someone was triggering the alarm deliberately.
Once the alarm was switched off they came back and broke in, stole some stuff and set fire to the building. It wasn't difficult to work out that it was a racially motivated attack because they scrawled combat 18 slogans on the walls, but the police didn't take it seriously.
Some time later we had a series of burglaries ourselves which coincidentally occurred just after a club for ex offenders opened a couple of doors away. The police sent around one of their CSI types, he had an attitude problem and clearly wasn't interested in anything except his next break. He mentioned that he had been there before, to a fire that "the theiving P***** had started himself to get the insurance" and when I pointed out that the poor man had lost everything and gone bankrupt and in fact had no insurance, he just repeated his view that our tenant had done it himself.
When there's that kind of attitude, it becomes an attitude problem not a resources problem.
jonbeeza
Suspended / Banned
- Messages
- 9,388
- Name
- Jon
- Edit My Images
- Yes
I loved the film Magnum force starring Clint Eastwood as Harry Callahan. A small group of Police Officers in the San Francisco Police Force, systematically get rid of the city's criminals. Only problem is, you would end up getting shot for a parking ticket.
Not serious about the above, but at times I just feel like this could be done