very controversial question...

Lynton

Lynton

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Lynton (yes really!)
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Now either I am a grumpy old man (101% likely) , or my photography has improved lots over the last 3 years I have been a member here (very likely) but recently I have seen quite a few pics (and no I am not going to name and shame) asking for C&C (and then a dummy spit when x is told it is not the most amazing sunset ever!!!) which could at best be described as "snap shots"... :shrug:

I don't mean this in any derogratory way, we all start form different levels, and we all have our aspirations.., we all want to learn......as to where we want to go, and all photography is subjective............

But surely a few basics should be understood........... :shrug::suspect:
 
You are probably correct BUT as TP prides itself on being the 'Friendliest Photography Forum on the 'Net' I have to say that the response of some in giving C&C is appalling.
Yes there is no need for people to get upset when C&C is given but neither is there a need to give C&C in an objectionable way.
Be constructive and friendly, don't treat others as though they were on a coconut shy and maybe there will be less offense to take offense at.
 
Every now and again Lynton says something sensible, and its duly noted :D

Yes I agree, sometimes the critique given could be a little more constructive, or put
in a more polite manner.

I have also noticed, (and not necessarily in the same post)
sometimes those receiving critique could accept it with a little more grace ;)

If we keep telling someone that that is the best shot since well I don't know,
They are never going to learn are they?

Maybe a little understanding is required between the critiquer and the critiquee.
(are they really words? well they damned well should be :D)
 
Cobra said:
Every now and again Lynton says something sensible, and its duly noted :D
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Stealing that for my all new signature............ :love::love:
 
Lynton said:
Stealing that for my all new signature............ :love::love:
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He could be blowing sugar up your bum :D

i like the critique whether its blunt or polite.

its all good :)

Thinking about it blunt does make me laugh more though.
 
simon44 said:
He could be blowing sugar up your bum :D

i like the critique whether its blunt or polite.

its all good :)

Thinking about it blunt does make me laugh more though.
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Being 100% honest, (and I would understand better) I would much rather the 100% oblique sharp to the point "this is crap and it's crap because" style as opposed to the "I don't want to offend, so i will be wishy washy, you could have tried harder here" style............
 
Its is the same old story though, it is not what you say, it is how you say it... too blunt isn't good.

However, having said that, I have noticed that even the most polite critique can result in a dummy spit - the flickr/facebook love-in should not apply to a photograph forum feedback section, we have a photos for pleasure section for that. Or even worse in my book, a complete ignorance by the OP, just no acknowledgement of your words at all - that really winds me up! More so when that same person will then moan after several months that no one is commenting on their images.... getaway!! :cuckoo:
 
Lynton said:
Being 100% honest, (and I would understand better) I would much rather the 100% oblique sharp to the point "this is crap and it's crap because" style as opposed to the "I don't want to offend, so i will be wishy washy, you could have tried harder here" style............
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But why use words like "crap"? Blunt doesn't have to mean rude.
 
malo50 said:
But why use words like "crap"? Blunt doesn't have to mean rude.
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Personally, if i posted a pic , that was "below par", I would appreciate a direct "crap!" and it's crap because, ...


If you think crap is rude............ then best we end this here and now........
 
Lynton said:
Personally, if i posted a pic , that was "below par", I would appreciate a direct "crap!" and it's crap because, ...

If you think crap is rude............ then best we end this here and now........
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If you think it's not, that speaks volumes about you.
 
I would also appreciate a direct 'crap' answer Lynton, but you need to understand a lot of people wont and will find it rude/offending. Just use a bit more diplomacy and take into account not eveyone will share your view of how you may wish to be critiqued. ;)
 
what about having "you can call my pics crap" in your sig?
 
malo50 said:
If you think it's not, that speaks volumes about you.
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Hmmm, all it seems to say is "I am not offended my a very mild swear word, so mild it bypasses the sweary filter"

Honestly in this day and age are you actually offended by the word crap or are you jumping on the "oh i want to be offended" bandwagon.

If the latter , god help you in the real world.............


Anyway, back to the topic.......
 
Lynton said:
Hmmm, all it seems to say is "I am not offended my a very mild swear word, so mild it bypasses the sweary filter"

Honestly in this day and age are you actually offended by the word crap or are you jumping on the "oh i want to be offended" bandwagon.

If the latter , god help you in the real world.............

Anyway, back to the topic.......
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This is the topic, because you made it the topic. I'm not offended by the word, I just think that other words do the job just as well. I suppose that for people of a limited vocabulary it may be a useful word, about as useful as " in two and a half years on this forum, this picture is the biggest pile of ******, I've ever seen". Please note this is a paraphrase, rather than a direct quote.
 
Lynton said:
Hmmm, all it seems to say is "I am not offended my a very mild swear word, so mild it bypasses the sweary filter"

Honestly in this day and age are you actually offended by the word crap or are you jumping on the "oh i want to be offended" bandwagon.

If the latter , god help you in the real world.............
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The entire argument about a particular word is informative as to how perceptions are different and how what one person considers reasonable might offend another.

People should bear this in mind - just because I personally don't find any profanity offensive, doesn't mean I would ever use them unless I was sure those hearing / reading would also not be offended. On an internet forum it is impossible to be sure of this and so I am always careful about the tone and language of my posts, and read them through to ensure they cannot be taken the wrong way and cause offence.

Any adult should be able to do the same and show the same consideration for others, but it seems many don't care enough to try and rely on the feeling of security that being hidden behind screen gives them.
 
malo50 said:
" in two and a half years on this forum, this picture is the biggest pile of ******, I've ever seen". Please note this is a paraphrase, rather than a direct quote.
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and if it was a direct quote, link me danno :D

I think the mods have the last say. They are more than fair in their discretion i think.

I haven't seen many close call critiques, so it must be working. Also if your'e offended you can report or give back as good as you get.
 
I haven't posted any photos up for over a year, but when I did I always asked people not to be afraid to be brutal in what they thought. I was lucky if I even got any replies let alone brutal critique.:'(
 
Some people seriously need to lighten up on here, all too often they forget that photos are 100% subjective, and I doubt there's a photo in existence that is liked by every single person on the planet!!

It's not nice for the ego when others tell you your photos are crap, but it's part and parcel of asking potentially thousands of other people what they think of them!!

As long as people are honest, and not deliberately offensive, then where's the harm?! :shrug: If you're looking to improve, there's nothing better than someone telling you where you're going wrong so you know for next time!!
 
I too was paraphrasing slightly... however some seem to read everything literally.....:shrug:
 
Lynton said:
Now either I am a grumpy old man (101% likely) , or my photography has improved lots over the last 3 years I have been a member here (very likely) but recently I have seen quite a few pics (and no I am not going to name and shame) asking for C&C (and then a dummy spit when x is told it is not the most amazing sunset ever!!!) which could at best be described as "snap shots"... :shrug:

I don't mean this in any derogratory way, we all start form different levels, and we all have our aspirations.., we all want to learn......as to where we want to go, and all photography is subjective............

But surely a few basics should be understood........... :shrug::suspect:
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What bugs me more is when people spit their dummy out when no one reacts to a photo they have posted. It's as if we are obliged to reply. You cannot force people to comment on a photo.
 
hang on.... where's the 'very controversial question?' :shrug:
 
To be honest C&C is one of the areas that I actively strive to be, if not just polite, then positive.

Telling someone that their pictures are crap only works if:

a) they are a working professional in training that seriously needs to up their game

b) someone that is on a massive ego rush, and won't accept that their photos are just plain average.

Neither of those cases really apply on TP ( the second one maybe on very rare occasions).

I'm all for robust critique, but do it positively. Find something good about the photo, praise it, point out the areas of error and in conclusion offer encouragement.


If you are going to call someone's photographs crap, then you'd better be damned sure that your own output is up to standard, otherwise your comments are likely to come back and bite you on the bum- probably by me! :D
I dislike bullying and the ego trips that some photographers appear to get by putting other people's work down.

On the other hand, I completely agree with Yv and others that there is little worse than taking the time to consider a photograph and post your thoughts on it, only to have those comments ignored whilst each and every 'nice shot' comment is thanked. I don't expect to be right all (or even some) of the time, but it would be nice if the photographer would at least engage in a dialogue- even if it's to say that I'm missing the point.

Having said all of that, I haven't really done any C&C for ages, mostly because I'm usually on my iPad which limits me to commenting on composition, framing and timing. C- ... must make more of an effort!!!
 
Lynton said:
I too was paraphrasing slightly... however some seem to read everything literally.....:shrug:
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So would you care to explain the sub text, please?
 
Lynton said:
recently I have seen quite a few pics... which could at best be described as "snap shots"

But surely a few basics should be understood...........
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While it's easy to say this when you've got some experience of your own, the fact is that until you get to that level of experience, you're actually not necessarily aware of your own shortcomings. It takes a fair amount of knowledge and understanding before you're actually in possession of the ability to look at your own work critically, because you need that knowledge in order to develop the metacognitive ability to accurately and realistically judge your own output. Furthermore, we also need that same knowledge in order to understand the skill of others.

If people automatically possessed the ability to accurately gauge skill, we wouldn't see all those disastrous (hilarious) auditions in Pop Idol and other TV talent shows, would we? On the contrary, those people almost always firmly believe they're talented.

And then on the very extreme end of the scale, we get what is known as the Dunning-Kruger effect, whereby a person is so poorly skilled that their perception of their skill level becomes distorted to the extent that they believe themselves to be better than everyone else. In other words, their lack of ability to accurately gauge skill leads them to grossly overestimate their own ability. It's fascinating stuff.
 
onona said:
If people automatically possessed the ability to accurately gauge skill, we wouldn't see all those disastrous (hilarious) auditions in Pop Idol and other TV talent shows, would we? On the contrary, those people almost always firmly believe they're talented.
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The only reason we see such auditions is that it has become the done thing in this country to hold others up to ridicule, in the name of entertainment......
 
You're missing the point I am making though. The choice to broadcast it is not what I am discussing; it's the fact that people who lack talent are unaware of it.
 
Slimbert said:
Some people seriously need to lighten up on here, all too often they forget that photos are 100% subjective, and I doubt there's a photo in existence that is liked by every single person on the planet!!

It's not nice for the ego when others tell you your photos are crap, but it's part and parcel of asking potentially thousands of other people what they think of them!!

As long as people are honest, and not deliberately offensive, then where's the harm?! :shrug: If you're looking to improve, there's nothing better than someone telling you where you're going wrong so you know for next time!!
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I agree 100% but would you tell me if you think Lynton's pearl of wisdom that I quoted is constructive or deliberately offensive.
With regard to taking things too literally, what he said isn't really ambiguous is it?
 
Slimbert said:
There's one guy in particular who does this fairly often.....I live in hope that one day he'll fall on a large spike!! ;)
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Hope he does not fall on me it might hurt:lol:

spike
 
Martin,

Please don't attempt to put words into my mouth, or twist things that I have said into things you want to read. Thanks..




For clarity and I'll keep this as simple as possible, I would not say "Martin, that picture is a pile of crap", Jeez give me some credit... I would go into detail as to what in my opinion is wrong with the picture (note - in my opinion) and suggestions as to how to improve it...

The point I was originally making is that in general the average quality of pics on here is, again in my opinion, going downhill......... Quite a lot of average snap shot dross, dressed up in an attempt to look nice.... compared to the quality of pics that was on here what I joined.........

Maybe that is partly due to my photography has come on leaps and bounds in the last 3 years. Maybe it's because more seasoned photographers don't post for C&C anymore, as it is short in being forthcoming... Maybe it is for a multitude of reasons....
 
Lynton said:
Martin,

Please don't attempt to put words into my mouth, or twist things that I have said into things you want to read. Thanks..

For clarity and I'll keep this as simple as possible, I would not say "Martin, that picture is a pile of crap", Jeez give me some credit... I would go into detail as to what in my opinion is wrong with the picture (note - in my opinion) and suggestions as to how to improve it...

The point I was originally making is that in general the average quality of pics on here is, again in my opinion, going downhill......... Quite a lot of average snap shot dross, dressed up in an attempt to look nice.... compared to the quality of pics that was on here what I joined.........

Maybe that is partly due to my photography has come on leaps and bounds in the last 3 years. Maybe it's because more seasoned photographers don't post for C&C anymore, as it is short in being forthcoming... Maybe it is for a multitude of reasons....
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You did say it, i didn't invent it, and it's so explicit, there's no need to twist it, but that aside, I do actually agree with you. Insipid "that's great" critique is absolutely pointless. It doesn't help the OP asking for critique, but it does help the post count of the critic. I've come on leaps and bounds reading, and applying, the constructive critique posted on other people's work.

This is where I see where Onona's coming from.....if you work in a vacuum, independent of outside influence/critique, you're just not going to improve.
 
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malo50 said:
I agree 100% but would you tell me if you think Lynton's pearl of wisdom that I quoted is constructive or deliberately offensive.
With regard to taking things too literally, what he said isn't really ambiguous is it?
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I wouldn't say it's either of those things....

It's how he'd say it to yours or someone elses face, were he speaking to you in person.....he's always honest, much of the time to a fault, and I'd take that above forced/fake politeness every single day of the week!!

But that's just me, everyones different and we all need to accept that or we'll end up going round in circles arguing/debating in threads like this one, searching for a middle ground solution that doesn't exist!!
 
Ok heres a newbies opinion ,
Im happy for pretty blunt views on any pic i post , In fact i expect it and would be disappointed if it was not the case , The very reason i post a pic is to get opinions from those that know a hell of a lot more than i do so i can be informed about how i can improve my pics . There is a line that is not constant regarding a blunt view on a pic , crap to one person may be acceptable while to another it may be hurtful , Some people dont take negative comments no matter how well they are meant in a grown up manner and spit the dummy while others take it the way its intended and move on , its a question of balance maybe get to know the poster a little before writing a more blunt assessment on his / her pics
Just my thoughts , I shall now get back in me box :thumbs:
 
Slimbert said:
I wouldn't say it's either of those things....

It's how he'd say it to yours or someone elses face, were he speaking to you in person.....he's always honest, much of the time to a fault, and I'd take that above forced/fake politeness every single day of the week!!

But that's just me, everyones different and we all need to accept that or we'll end up going round in circles arguing/debating in threads like this one, searching for a middle ground solution that doesn't exist!!
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Perhaps the difference is that you know Lynton, and you've had a chance to get to know him, how he communicates and get to grips with it. Unfortunately in a forum we don't all get that opportunity. If I've read things wrong, I apologise, but hope you can understand that this kind of appreciation cuts both ways.
 
malo50 said:
Perhaps the difference is that you know Lynton, and you've had a chance to get to know him, how he communicates and get to grips with it. Unfortunately in a forum we don't all get that opportunity. If I've read things wrong, I apologise, but hope you can understand that this kind of appreciation cuts both ways.
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You're bang on the money. This is an internet forum, and all we have to go on are the words that are in front of us, as they are presented to us.

Sometimes, the good intentions/humour are lost and thus offence is taken. The use of smilies can help, but otherwise, without the admins and mods seriously clamping down, it won't change, and it shouldn't in my opinion.

I think TP has a great "feel" about it. It's a wonderful resource, and I owe this place a massive amount. But if a time came where only Flickr style "nice pic" comments were allowed, I'd leave without a second thought!!

I'm the polar opposite to the classic keyboard warrior. I behave myself on here and other forums, and keep my comments mainly pleasent and friendly, but in "real life", I have a disgusting sense of humour, swear like a dock worker, and for some people I can be quite a difficult guy to get along with. Where a keyboard warrior would cry and probably run a mile if you confronted them face to face, I'd probably headbutt you and steal your wallet!!

The reason I say all this, is that you can never judge a forum persona by the words typed on a screen. Sadly, it's all we have to go on, so I think if someone says something we don't like, we take a deep breath, smile, thank them and sit back and wait for them to get bored and go away or get banned.....confronting them will only ever make it worse, and usually you'd be giving them exactly what they want.....which means you've lost!!
 
Flash In The Pan said:
The only reason we see such auditions is that it has become the done thing in this country to hold others up to ridicule, in the name of entertainment......
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As it should be..... ;)
 
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