Verbal warning for being off sick

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Reidy36

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Just thought i would post about this.

Got a mate who works in the food industry, and last week he had a bout of diarrohea (well still got in and this has been since friday). He told his boss first thing friday morning he wasn't well and that his wife had it from the thursday.

The boss gave him some tablets and told him to crack on. Anyway, an hour or so later he went to see the first aider, who correctly told him to go home as due to working in catering premises, he cant be there.

Apparently, when he arrives back at work (looking wednesday at the earliest), he will be given a verbal warning for being off sick, yet by law he can't be there.

Anybody got any ideas.
 
Make sure he gets himself to a doctor to get a sick note justifying his absence. Then he can take it up with the HR Department or relevant person at work. He shouldn't receive a warning for being unwell, particularly in the food sector where he could pass his illness on to consumers.
 
Get his trade union on the case. If he isn't in one, join one pronto.
 
Is his boss qualified to be handing out medication??

You friend should see his union rep asap as this sounds like a job for them.
 
get him to check his contract some companies write it in that you get warnings for being off but most that due this pay very well for being off

i know its a food factory and he should be off so as not to cross contaminate this is how it was when i was in a food factory off for 48 hours mandatory

if they still want to get arsey id bring up the medication he was given and see what qualifications hes got to be handed this out and poss report it further up the line that he was trying to make him stay in work even tho ill

as what ever they make these batches could be called back if people are getting ill
 
When i spoke to him earlier, he said that he has checked employment law and apparently it is coming in, that it's standard.

Worryingly, his managers have had diarrohea over the past couple of weeks, but stayed at the establishment.

Think the tablet was one that is standard you get from the shops, think he said imodium.
 
His bosses probably needs reporting to HSE. The outbreak was due to them if they've been sick and been in work. Idiots.

If you have a bacterial infection the last thing you want to do is to take anything that keeps it in...
 
Reidy36 said:
The boss gave him some tablets and told him to crack on. Anyway, an hour or so later he went to see the first aider, who correctly told him to go home as due to working in catering premises, he cant be there.
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Does he have a written report from the First Aider - he needs it, as well as a doctors not. Check the company policy, he made even require a stool sample testing before he can return to work.

Your friend's line manager gave him tablets so suppress the symptoms of a gastrintestinal condition and sent him back to the production line of a food factory?

Your friend's boss doesn't like his job very much, does he?

How much ***** (pardon the pun) does your friend want to land his boss in?

For a level 1 ***** storm, one report of the situation to each of the following:
  • Site food safety/technical/quality manager
  • Site H&S manager
  • Line manager

Repeat at Group/Company level for Level 3 ***** storm.

Repeat with local authority EHO for level 5 ***** storm.
 
Could there be more to this. To proceed to a discipline situation purely on the basis of what is described would be outrageous.

If the employee has a history of absence of this sort (i.e. uncertified) and the proper monitoring processes have been adhered then that could be another matter, but even then the punishment should not be given in advance of a formal hearing.
All large companies have absence monitoring systems in place now and it is possible to eventually get the heave ho for being sick too often although it can be a long drawn out affair.

Not au fait with the food industry and can well see that having staff with sickness or the runs would be a big no-no. Presumably staff are told not to turn up at their workplace if they have anything like that.
 
The verbal warning hasn't been given yet as he isn't back to work.

He was told that he would receive a disciplinary chat as taken time off sick (apparently it's there somewhere in employment law, will try and find where).

Mate said in hindsight he shouldn't have taken tablets, but he didn't want to be off, and thinks they were Polish copies of what we would take (hight number of Polish work in the place).

You can't get a Dr's note for the 1st week.

His wife has had the same symptoms, but got them a day early.

I have sent him a copy of the link to this, and says it's very interesting reading.
 
Well - I used to work in the food industry - more specifically the Ice Cream Manufacturing sector of it. I actually only worked in the IT section of the company, but the rules were company wide. Should I have had ANY "stomach bug" related absence, I had to phone in to the office, whereupon the QA section would arrange for a sterile "sample pot" be sent to me at home, along with packaging to send it to the labs. I was then "on indefinite sick leave" - a minimum of 7 days - until I presented a further bug-free sample, and was cleared to return to site.

The thought that someone would hand out a pack of polski-diocalm and say "crash on mate" just really horrifies me, frankly...
 
Verbal warnings don't exist anymore. They hold no merit in a tribunal.

If I was him I would be digging out my company policy and having a few words with HR about his boss giving him medication.
 
Reidy36 said:
You can't get a Dr's note for the 1st week.
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You don't need a doctors note for the first week, that's what self certification is all about. Unless he's been regularly off sick I can't see where a disclipinary of any kind is possible.

Whatever happens, make sure he does not go alone into any meeting with management, he's entitled to have a friend or representaion and they must give him time to arrange this if he want's a union rep.
 
Spoony said:
Verbal warnings don't exist anymore. They hold no merit in a tribunal.

If I was him I would be digging out my company policy and having a few words with HR about his boss giving him medication.
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Got a source for that? Someone I know just got a formal verbal, they'd probably be interested.
 
as others have said get the union & H&S at work involved :
company at fault for giving tablets out/ignoring H&S guidelines especially in the food industry.
investigative meeting is 1st step - no futher action or action to be taken , then may lead to a disciplinary meeting if deemed appropriate. (who said a warning will be issued? if you can prove this let the meeting go ahead then get the union to overturn it as it was pre-judged).
dont go into any meeting without a rep even if they say you dont need one - as soon as they start writing things down the meeting becomes a formal meeting.

finally ask your union rep to ask management if they have a policies for people book - this book sets out every company policy in writing.
 
Steep said:
You don't need a doctors note for the first week, that's what self certification is all about. Unless he's been regularly off sick I can't see where a disclipinary of any kind is possible.
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Food industry is slightly different (six years, glad I'm out of it). Because there are specific hygiene implications for sickness there is usually a compulsory absence period and compulsory stool testing. A certificate.note is required for the absence and more importantly for the return to work. Most food companies have a company medical service for just this situation. There will be a detailed written policy for this, because no food company could stay in business without one.


(ref. verbal warnings - as I understand it these now have to be backed-up by a written confirmation of the verbal warning. What my old boss used to call a "pub chat" is strictly off the record. From the limited information presented the line manager would be on sticky ground pushing things with your friend because of his own actions)
 
Reidy,
I know you asked for advice but please get your friend to get some professional advice too. Apologies if anyone so far is up to date with employment law but there seems to be some well meant but dodgy advice here.
I have been a manager for 20 years, including in the food industry, and would still not like to give solid advice as every company has different rules and terms.
Hope he gets it sorted.
 
Even though you can self certificate for the first 7 days, most doctors (at the practice I attend anyway) will issue a full doctors one if you ask nicely.
 
neil_g said:
Got a source for that? Someone I know just got a formal verbal, they'd probably be interested.
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It really depends on company T&C’s for their own procedure for misconduct/grievance’s

The law requires
First written warning
Final written warning
Dismissal

The fact your friend had received a verbal warning means he/she have been given a bit of a chat and a slap on the wrist and he needs to change their ways before things get worse.

So if a company decided to give a verbal warning that up to the company but it cannot be used in a formal disciplinary procedure, although it will prove the company have been more than fair in giving the individual ample time to improve their performance before formal procedures have begun.

You can find all you need on acas website.
www.acas.org.uk

Of course if they do something which is more serious depending on a company’s T&C’s they could skip to a final written or dismissal if the misconduct or grievance warranted it.

But they would need a tight case if it did go to a tribunal.

In the case of the op’s friend I don’t think he has much to worry about, but there must be more to the story, it just does not sound right.
 
Phil1974 said:
Reidy,
I know you asked for advice but please get your friend to get some professional advice too. Apologies if anyone so far is up to date with employment law but there seems to be some well meant but dodgy advice here.
I have been a manager for 20 years, including in the food industry, and would still not like to give solid advice as every company has different rules and terms.
Hope he gets it sorted.
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This. Alastair's advice has been good (much better than my own) but without seeing an individual contract and having all the details first hand it's impossible to give more accurate advice.
 
Reidy36 said:
The verbal warning hasn't been given yet as he isn't back to work.

He was told that he would receive a disciplinary chat as taken time off sick (apparently it's there somewhere in employment law, will try and find where).
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Taking the devils advocate side of things, it might be a misunderstanding in that it's a return to work chat (confirm why of, ask if any issues, ok to retuen) and not any kind of disciplinary issues at all.

However would echo the thoughts about seeking professional advice (ACAS for example)
 
Are you sure he's not just getting a return to work interview that's common practice.

I had one last week after a sickness absence, it isn't disciplinary.
 
ChrisH said:
Are you sure he's not just getting a return to work interview that's common practice.

I had one last week after a sickness absence, it isn't disciplinary.
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Agreed.

Most companies do this now.

It is more of a chat than anything else.
 
Any update?

His employer is entitled (if set out in the contract of employment) to investigate and discipline an individual for absence (you can't discipline someone for being Ill but for not being at work you can)

If he has repeated absences then this can ultimately lead to dismissal but again difficult to comment on specifics as will depend n his Ts&Cs

On another note his manager is clearly struggling to deal with absence/productivity targets etc. and is being amateur in his attempts to prevent issues and should be reported to his line manager for inappropriate action. Depending upon the conversation re taking the tablets this can be deemed as intimidation/bullying.
 
Not yet, he has been off all week and only just had a few days of not being sat on the toilet.
Think he will be back at work tomorrow.
Once I know more, will let you know the outcome.
 
Just spoke to him, apparently as he is off sick, he has broken his contract to work 40 hours a week.
The first time you are sick you get councilling and a back to work chat, 2nd time a verbal warning, 3rd it gets worse.
It is over a think he said 12 or 24 month period.
This is written into their work contracts.
I have suggested a call to citizens advice as doesn't sound right at all, especially as by law as a food handler he can't work.
Any legal people care to comment.
Think company do this as have a lot of eastern europeans working for them.
 
Reidy36 said:
Just spoke to him, apparently as he is off sick, he has broken his contract to work 40 hours a week.
The first time you are sick you get councilling and a back to work chat, 2nd time a verbal warning, 3rd it gets worse.
It is over a think he said 12 or 24 month period.
This is written into their work contracts.
I have suggested a call to citizens advice as doesn't sound right at all, especially as by law as a food handler he can't work.
Any legal people care to comment.
Think company do this as have a lot of eastern europeans working for them.
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just because it is in his contract doesn't mean it is enforceable - get down to CAB or speak to a union rep if he's member of one (or even if he's not, often unions will give out advice/guidance to non-members)
 
Think company do this as have a lot of eastern europeans working for them.
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companies are supposed to look after there employees, irrespective of their nationality etc.....

the companies are also responsible for the welfare of their employees... if this ever resulted in a dismissal they would be taken to the cleaners for unfair dismissal/constructive dismissal and the like!! I get you friend to keep copies of doc certificates etc to prove later on if necessary!!

also get him to get intouch with the food and hygiene people and see what they suggest.. the company needs its operational licence from the relevant governing body so may be worth while getting in touch with them!
 
Reidy36 said:
Just spoke to him, apparently as he is off sick, he has broken his contract to work 40 hours a week.
The first time you are sick you get councilling and a back to work chat, 2nd time a verbal warning, 3rd it gets worse.
It is over a think he said 12 or 24 month period.
This is written into their work contracts.
I have suggested a call to citizens advice as doesn't sound right at all, especially as by law as a food handler he can't work.
Any legal people care to comment.
Think company do this as have a lot of eastern europeans working for them.
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This is relatively standard in a lot of organisations now although this appears to be a rather harsh example in terms of periods of absence.

A 12 month rolling period is quite reasonable but I would expect that a fair policy would be for the third period of absence to trigger a formal review and may lead to further disciplinary action if there wasn't 'an immediate and sustained improvement in attendance, specifically... [company details clear targets here]'
 
I remember years ago I worked for a well known local bacon factory. Pig blood is filthy, a tiny bit in a small nick in my finger resulted in a nasty case of blood poisoning and I was off sick for two weeks with my arm in a sling. When I returned to work I was summoned to the managers office and given a written warning! The union rep who was present actually said this was "fair enough"
I walked out that day. Got a new job the next day with a big supermarket. I bet these days with the job market being what it is I'd have had to suck it up.
 
It's not as if he wanted to be off, knowing him he would have stayed at work, but due to it being diarrhoea, by law he has to leave the workplace, how can you be penalised for that?
Apparently it's a norovirus and a few people in his town have had it.
I will tell him again to get to Cab as doesn't sound right or fair.
 
Ste Manns said:
I remember years ago I worked for a well known local bacon factory. Pig blood is filthy, a tiny bit in a small nick in my finger resulted in a nasty case of blood poisoning and I was off sick for two weeks with my arm in a sling. When I returned to work I was summoned to the managers office and given a written warning! The union rep who was present actually said this was "fair enough"
I walked out that day. Got a new job the next day with a big supermarket. I bet these days with the job market being what it is I'd have had to suck it up.
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i think i worked there!!! for info i still work in the food industry as a tech manager, the rules generally are for periods of sickness lasting a day or so , the employee must have been sympton free for 48hrs before returning to work, for longer periods a clear stool sample is required
 
Norovirus is a nasty bug and there is no way in hell even in a normal work environment someone should come to work until they have been free of symptoms for at least 36 hours! Managers are selfish pillocks if they have come into work within this time and dangerous pillocks for making others do so.
 
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