VEHICLES SOLD IN EU & UK FROM 2022 TO BE FITTED WITH AUTOMATIC SPEED LIMITERS

[Pound Coin]

Currently, there are 473 vehicles per 1000 people in the UK compared to 207 per 1000 in China.

So, we have to halve our vehicle ownership - or more...

 

[whiteflyer]

Assuming the UK follows the same rules as the EU implementation then ISA can be switched off - it’s on by default when you switch on the ignition but then you can switch it off for the remainder of the journey.

My car already has ISA and it is OFF by default, you have to manually switch it on, you can also adjust set a permanent speed tolerance that is in addition to the detected speed limit. ( so say allow the car to always go 4mph over the limit or force it to 4 mph under the limit)

Also for those that are worried they'll have no contol over the car this is from my manual

"WARNING: When you are going downhill, your vehicle speed could increase above the set speed. The system does not apply the brakes

The system allows you to limit the vehicle speed to the maximum speed limit detected by the speed sign recognition system. For example, if the speed sign recognition system detects a 50 mph (80 km/h) speed limit, the vehicle speed is limited to 50 mph (80 km/h). You can temporarily exceed the set speed if required, for example to overtake."


It's in the tilte of the system ISA = Intelligent Speed Assistance
It is not ISC - Intelligent Speed Control

 

[woof woof]

Yeah, yeah, take all the benefits of modern living and point the finger at someone else.

So, we have to halve our vehicle ownership - or more...

These are serious posts?

 

[Pound Coin]

If we as a species are to care about the future of the planet, yes they are serious. If we wish to continue regardless or we magically find a way of reducing atmospheric CO2 quite quickly, then they can be considered frivolous…

Edited to add: it is interesting how proposals such as this are viewed by quite a few.

 

[woof woof]

If we as a species are to care about the future of the planet, yes they are serious. If we wish to continue regardless or we magically find a way of reducing atmospheric CO2 quite quickly, then they can be considered frivolous…

Edited to add: it is interesting how proposals such as this are viewed by quite a few.

India, China and others are building large numbers of coal powered power stations and opening mines left right and centre and Germany burns brown coal and pollution keeps pumping out in any number of ways at an incredible rate and your answer is to half cars in the UK and you think this is a serious proposal?

If that's the case I think you need a serious rethink as it just wont matter what happens in the UK if the likes of India and China continue on this road. We could all die and leave the UK as an empty non polluting land and the pollution from the rest of the world would dwarf any savings from us in the UK all dying.

You can see that? Can't you?

If you want to make another argument, that we've industrialised and they should be allowed to too then that's an argument, but it's a potentially planet killing one.

 

[Pound Coin]

There are two implications to be got from quoting car numbers in China and the UK.

One is that China should end up with the same number of cars that we have, and the other is...

It is difficult to understand the reasoning that goes 'because other countries are building power stations, we shouldn't bother doing climate stuff'.

 

[Box Brownie]

India, China and others are building large numbers of coal powered power stations and opening mines left right and centre and Germany burns brown coal and pollution keeps pumping out in any number of ways at an incredible rate and your answer is to half cars in the UK and you think this is a serious proposal?

If that's the case I think you need a serious rethink as it just wont matter what happens in the UK if the likes of India and China continue on this road. We could all die and leave the UK as an empty non polluting land the the pollution from the rest of the world would dwarf any savings from us in the UK all dying.

You can see that? Can't you?

If you want to make another argument, that we've industrialised and they should be allowed to too then that's an argument, but it's a potentially planet killing one.

I recall reading a damning report many years back that as China was developing we, as in the UK, sold them last generation coal fired power station technology...............now have the Chinese developed their own home grown 'cleaner' fossil fueled power stations are they even now using 60plus year old designs??? :banghead:

 

[whiteflyer]

And electric cars aren't an option for me because they don't even exist, in the type of vehicle that I need - 4WD, lots of ground clearance, able to tow heavy trailers. And, even if they did exist, the infrastructure isn't there to charge them - vehicles towing large trailers wouldn't get far between charges so would need charging en route, and the chargers are set up for little cars that don't have trailers attached.

Rivan are apparently in talks to setup a UK factory, and the range of their 2022 R1T is 400+ miles, so you'll have no excuse


Just a pity Ford don't do the F150 Lighting in the UK

 

[woof woof]

There are two implications to be got from quoting car numbers in China and the UK.

One is that China should end up with the same number of cars that we have, and the other is...

It is difficult to understand the reasoning that goes 'because other countries are building power stations, we shouldn't bother doing climate stuff'.

That's not what I'm saying.

What I'm saying is people should look up and see a wider picture.

The UK should limit the amount of pollution emitted but some other places clearly need to do more. There's little to be gained from for example closing a polluting "thing" in the UK if we then buy the thing from China and in doing so very likely support a much more polluting industry.

And I remain very worried about electric cars. Scale up production with current tech and I fear they could be an environmental disaster unless some radical technology emerges PDQ and there's no sign of that in the public domain today.

 

[Garry Edwards]

Rivan are apparently in talks to setup a UK factory, and the range of their 2022 R1T is 400+ miles, so you'll have no excuseView attachment 327019


Just a pity Ford don't do the F150 Lighting in the UK

I'm not looking for excuses and I'm not averse to electric cars. I'm just pointing out that, right now, the type of car that I (and many others) need doesn't exist. Obviously, at some point in the future it will, but the environmental extremists, along with the government and local authorities, are trying to ban what exists in favour of something that doesn't.

And, even if the specs quoted are correct they will probably be either/or, like many specs. e.g. range 400 miles OR can tow, not both. But right now it's academic because this is 2021, not 2022.

 

[Pound Coin]

That's not what I'm saying.

What I'm saying is people should look up and see a wider picture.

The UK should limit the amount of pollution emitted but some other places clearly need to do more. There's little to be gained from for example closing a polluting "thing" in the UK if we then buy the thing from China and in doing so very likely support a much more polluting industry.

And I remain very worried about electric cars. Scale up production with current tech and I fear they could be an environmental disaster unless some radical technology emerges PDQ and there's no sign of that in the public domain today.

Agreed and agreed!

 

[ABTog]

I'm not looking for excuses and I'm not averse to electric cars. I'm just pointing out that, right now, the type of car that I (and many others) need doesn't exist. Obviously, at some point in the future it will, but the environmental extremists, along with the government and local authorities, are trying to ban what exists in favour of something that doesn't.

And, even if the specs quoted are correct they will probably be either/or, like many specs. e.g. range 400 miles OR can tow, not both. But right now it's academic because this is 2021, not 2022.

I'm not averse to electric cars but again in a very rural county, there's not enough infrastructure to support charging.

I also tow trailers, so electric vehicles are currently out of the question for that at least in terms of range.
Also the price, to get an electric car big enough to tow anything (and carry the family and luggage), you need to spend well over £30k, which is totally out of my budget.
Some interesting articles I've seen recently about towing though.
Towing caravans in Norway with 3 electric cars, showing how crucial the charging network is:

The very first test of three electric cars with caravans

elbil.no

More interestingly a German company developing a power system for a trailer/caravan that means that the towing vehicle doesn't use it's own battery power to pull it.

Towing with an EV: Are electric trailers the future?

A German travel trailer prototype provides its own electric propulsion and effectively doubles the batteries—meaning that there might be no drop in range from towing.

www.greencarreports.com

As for the original post, the speed system will require accurate data to work properly. I find that about 20-30% of the roads around me have the incorrect speed limit on Google. So I'm always looking for a speed limit sign for confirmation of the actual limit.
A system that actually looked with a camera for a sign is really problematic. How many roads do you drive on from your home before you see a speed limit sign? One route out of my area can see me get onto a 40mph road before I see a sign. Merging too slowly onto a faster road can be as dangerous as going too fast.
But any automated system is only as good as the programming it receives.

I'm all for extra safety systems, particularly with such an aging population in the UK and looking at the driving abilities of the older drivers. These systems would also be good if driving at night or when tired.
However, you do need the ability to override them when necessary.

 

[Box Brownie]

Another concern in the UK for the rollout of EV charging Infrastructure!

It was only a few years back when the electric power generation industry spoke of a very small margin in generation capacity.

I don't specifically recall any news since then that indicated the capacity had increased (much?).

Therefore with increasing EV demand for infrastructure =, if the capacity does not grow...........risk of brownouts???

 

[Nod]

Only a few years back, lighting was mainly incandescent or old fashioned fluorescent. TVs and monitors were CRT. Our 'leccy bill is up about £50 per quarter since getting the Leaf - the petrol bill for the A Class it replaced was close to that every fortnight or so.

 

[Jelster]

Another concern in the UK for the rollout of EV charging Infrastructure!

It was only a few years back when the electric power generation industry spoke of a very small margin in generation capacity.

I don't specifically recall any news since then that indicated the capacity had increased (much?).

Therefore with increasing EV demand for infrastructure =, if the capacity does not grow...........risk of brownouts???

A large majority of the vehicles will be recharged overnight, when most of us are tucked up in bed and not using a great deal of the infrastructure. That's why you can get deals on electricity when you have a charger fitted...

 

[whiteflyer]

Another concern in the UK for the rollout of EV charging Infrastructure!

It was only a few years back when the electric power generation industry spoke of a very small margin in generation capacity.

I don't specifically recall any news since then that indicated the capacity had increased (much?).

Therefore with increasing EV demand for infrastructure =, if the capacity does not grow...........risk of brownouts???

Well that's going to depend on our relationship with the EU

The UK, as of 2019 currently imports just 4% of its electricity. Though a current programme of investment from the government may see four or five times increase in imports through these inter-connectors. By 2022 the UK will have imported electricity from:

• France
• Ireland
• The Netherlands
• Belgium
• Denmark
• Norway

The electricity from the majority of these countries will be low carbon. Norway will supply electricity produced from hydro power and France will supply electricity from Nuclear power. By 2030 the UK energy import could increase from 4% to 25%! All through inter-connectors from Europe. Though the UK also plans to sell their electricity in the future too. With the expansion of their offshore wind farms, this is more than feasible. Generation with these wind farms may lead to periods when production exceeds immediate need, therefore allowing that energy to be sold on.

 

[whiteflyer]

A system that actually looked with a camera for a sign is really problematic. How many roads do you drive on from your home before you see a speed limit sign? One route out of my area can see me get onto a 40mph road before I see a sign. Merging too slowly onto a faster road can be as dangerous as going too fast.

If your in a 30 limit, there is no requirement for repeater signs, and the systems work using a combination of gps/map data and camera detecting road signs. As for now far you drive before seeing a speed sign, well in Lancashire just to the end of your street, as 99% of side roads are 20 and will have a 30 sign as you go on to the main road.

Yes my ISA does get it wrong sometime, but very rarely in towns, one place is the road next to a car park entrance because the carpark speed sign is miss-aligned, and sometimes it will say the road is a 60 limit but it's actual only a 50 (Lancashire have a habit of randomly dropping the 60 limit for no apparent reason)
As for merging in to fast traffic , you just put your foot down and it overrides the system, I will say again it's an Assistance system NOT a control system.

 

[Box Brownie]

Well that's going to depend on our relationship with the EU

The UK, as of 2019 currently imports just 4% of its electricity. Though a current programme of investment from the government may see four or five times increase in imports through these inter-connectors. By 2022 the UK will have imported electricity from:

• France
• Ireland
• The Netherlands
• Belgium
• Denmark
• Norway

The electricity from the majority of these countries will be low carbon. Norway will supply electricity produced from hydro power and France will supply electricity from Nuclear power. By 2030 the UK energy import could increase from 4% to 25%! All through inter-connectors from Europe. Though the UK also plans to sell their electricity in the future too. With the expansion of their offshore wind farms, this is more than feasible. Generation with these wind farms may lead to periods when production exceeds immediate need, therefore allowing that energy to be sold on.

I surmise the 4% import figure is the yearly average.

However, here https://gridwatch.co.uk/int It says as at 17:10 GMT today the import figure was 14%

 

[kennethwfd]

There are always examples and 'what-about-me's, but that does not mean that there shouldn't be both preaching and action against polluting transport.

You mean you just want to force cars off the roads - when it suits you
In ten days time there will be a major cycling event locally, it's ok to drive halfway across the country to attend it, isn't it?
I've heard it all before - polluting, unnecessary, too short, too long, should use a bicycle or walk, single car occupant, use the bus (there are no buses locally) and so on

 

[AndrewFlannigan]

You mean you just want to force cars off the roads - when it suits you

Agreed.

The climate change thing has become a religion, so any disagreement with the faithfull is an abomination and not to be tolerated.

 

[Mr Bump]

Agreed.

The climate change thing has become a religion, so any disagreement with the faithfull is an abomination and not to be tolerated.

thats not true, i think more "common people" are now much more aware of how there actual lives contribute not just to climate change globally but also environmental conditions locally, as i have said before electric vehicles are brilliant on two levels, firstly no carbon emissions at all in towns and cities, and if the industry gets it right charging them from very low carbon emitting sources. compare that to the whole food chain for fuel burning vehicles, from mining oil, refining, transporting, hgv to the fuel station and then burning it in our towns and cities which is an environmental nightmare.

 

[AndrewFlannigan]

thats not true, i think more "common people" are now much more aware of how there actual lives contribute not just to climate change globally but also environmental conditions locally,

Yes: the climate is changing. Then again, the planet's climate is always changing, it always has and it always will, at least until it loses its atmosphere.

I doubt however that this "Carbon Mania" is any part of the solution, so far as the effects are concerned. We need governments to look at what those effects will be and how we can mitigate them. If sea levels are going to rise substantially, we need to be building flood defences. If food supplies will be affected, we need to be identifying alternative food resources,

So far as I can see, the adherents of the Carbon Juju are likely to harm far more people, just as other witch doctors do, by distracting us from the real problems and the search for real solutions.

 

[Mr Bump]

Yes: the climate is changing. Then again, the planet's climate is always changing, it always has and it always will, at least until it loses its atmosphere.

I doubt however that this "Carbon Mania" is any part of the solution, so far as the effects are concerned. We need governments to look at what those effects will be and how we can mitigate them. If sea levels are going to rise substantially, we need to be building flood defences. If food supplies will be affected, we need to be identifying alternative food resources,

So far as I can see, the adherents of the Carbon Juju are likely to harm far more people, just as other witch doctors do, by distracting us from the real problems and the search for real solutions.

because you are a climate denier like many people in the western democracy and only interested in what impacts your own personal life not the people around you in your own towns and cities where pollution is giving children asthma and other lung diseases, forget china Andrew our own children are suffering because of the reluctance of people in the UK to act Locally.

 

[LCPete]

Climate change is real and it needs to be addressed but I don’t know what the answers are
I do feel that electric cars are not the answer at least with current technology, I still say that at the moment that small petrol cars are the best way forward there’s absolutely no reason for big diesel four wheel for most people
The generation of power by burning coal is a far bigger problem than co2 from vehicles

 

[kennethwfd]

Two of the biggest users of coal are in the production of concrete and steel. While there is an alternative method for steel, nothing on the horizon for concrete.
Yet we continue to build, including the demolition of perfectly good houses in order to maximise developer's profits, while the climate change experts tell us that I must not put a shovelful of coal on my fire - yes,part of the zero carbon emission strategy is to ban the sale of household coal.
Biggest cause of climate change - rapid population growth

 

[AndrewFlannigan]

because you are a climate denier

Which bit of...

"Yes: the climate is changing. Then again, the planet's climate is always changing, it always has and it always will, at least until it loses its atmosphere."

... did you not understand?

 

[Deleted member 26215]

Biggest cause of climate change - rapid population growth

And the easiest, simplest solution to that is to restrict families to having just one child. By doing that each new generation will be half the size of the previous generation.
It's not rocket science is it.

 

[BADGER.BRAD]

I can see there being some big gremlins in the system, some HGV's ( and I'm guessing cars) are fitted with auto braking systems forward and backwards the number of near accidents I have been involved in due to brakes coming on for no reason is amazing ! I've also tried reversing into things deliberately and have had to brake as the super fandango braking system has failed to operate. That said if it can slow the half wits down I'm all for it !

 

[BADGER.BRAD]

We are bigger polluters per capita than the Chinese. Partly because we offshore pollution to them and then claim we are good.

I can remember visiting one of the last coal mines open when delivering parts there in a HGV, I pulled onto site and the workers told me the Gaffer ( as they called him) was on his way and was the most obnoxious git ever. I had a chat with him and asked about the mine as I had an interest in caving and after we had unloaded the equipment he gave me a tour of all the surface works ! all the workers cleared off as soon as he arrived. He made the comment about our safety record in the U.k compared to China and said something along the lines of there killing as many people daily as we do in 5 years so are just transferring a bigger problem to them and not giving a toss, He also moaned about all the extra pollution created by bringing thousand of tonnes of coal half way round the world when we still have plenty left in the ground. So this comment rings true to me.

Electric cars.

I was looking at electric cars out of interest as I'm concerned at the amount of mileage I do, I mentioned this to a friend who is a car dealer and he said the at least £30,000 price tag is not the end of it you also have to rent the battery from most of the manufactures some he looked at were £70 plus a month. After seeing these two figures I gave up. We also had an electric HGV which gave up halfway through the day and halfway through it's supposed range this was in nice weather with no lights on and no heating so as pointed out most of the figures quoted are probably a load of bull. ( at least up to yet anyway)

It's great how any post like this gets twisted into something else along the way.

 

[Marc]

you also have to rent the battery from most of the manufactures some he looked at were £70 plus a month

I think that was the case when electric cars were in their infancy (early Nissan Leaf was an example) but don't believe that's the case now.

 

[srichards]

They're all battery owned apart from some older Renault Zoes and a few Nissan Leafs. Dealer is behind the times by several years.

 

[BADGER.BRAD]

They're all battery owned apart from some older Renault Zoes and a few Nissan Leafs. Dealer is behind the times by several years

In fairness to him he only sells the odd second hand car now as his main business is now Chinese motorcycles/scooters. I take it any warranty on the batteries is the sames as the cars ? My other problem would be I cannot charge from home/work and live 10 miles from the nearest Town/ petrol/fuel station and cannot say I've seen a charge point there anyway.

Just had a look nearest charge point id 12 miles or 30 mins away.

 

[AndrewFlannigan]

And the easiest, simplest solution to that is to restrict families to having just one child.

Yesssss. Except that China tried that and now has a rapidly aging population and a shortage of workers. That's why they replaced it with the two child policy in 2016 and appear to be tending towards removing all controls in order to rebalance the age distribution.

 

[bass_junkie83]

Two of the biggest users of coal are in the production of concrete and steel. While there is an alternative method for steel, nothing on the horizon for concrete.
Yet we continue to build, including the demolition of perfectly good houses in order to maximise developer's profits, while the climate change experts tell us that I must not put a shovelful of coal on my fire - yes,part of the zero carbon emission strategy is to ban the sale of household coal.
Biggest cause of climate change - rapid population growth

There is a massive drive in the construction industry to work towards net zero construction.

Previously, by way of requirements set out by the government via building regulations, the drive over the last however many years has been to improve the energy efficiency of buildings in use, which is absolutely the right thing to do. However there was little consideration on what this meant for existing buildings, refurbishments, change of uses etc. For many existing buildings facing redevelopment, achieving the energy targets simply is not possible meaning that demolition and starting from a blank sheet of paper is the only option.

There is now a lot of work and various studies underway by many companies in the construction industry to compare whole life carbon cost of construction + use. We may start seeing, in some cases, that a lower performing repurposed building is actually better than new higher performing buildings.

The other issue is the choice of materials, there are high performance insulations, recycled construction material and things like that which can be much more environmentally friendly, but when you also need to satisfy other requirements such as fire safety then they are just not suitable.

 

[srichards]

In fairness to him he only sells the odd second hand car now as his main business is now Chinese motorcycles/scooters. I take it any warranty on the batteries is the sames as the cars ? My other problem would be I cannot charge from home/work and live 10 miles from the nearest Town/ petrol/fuel station and cannot say I've seen a charge point there anyway.

Your car must be parked somewhere while at home and at work. If it's parked it's not impossible to sort out a charging method that would work.

 

[Deleted sulking member 63079]

Which bit of...

"Yes: the climate is changing. Then again, the planet's climate is always changing, it always has and it always will, at least until it loses its atmosphere."

... did you not understand?

The fact that the climate has never been changing this quickly in history and man made climate change is real perhaps?

Earth Temperature Timeline

xkcd.com

 

[RichardC27]

The fact that the climate has never been changing this quickly in history and man made climate change is real perhaps?

Earth Temperature Timeline

xkcd.com

It really does depend where you draw the line though. This is earth's temperature history over the past 500 million years. This is why I refuse to buy into this "climate crisis", the planet will be uninhabitable in a couple of thousand years nonsense. Yes the climate is changing, and yes we're probably driving at least some of it. But the climate is always changing. It has been much, much hotter than it is now in the past. As you can see from the chart below, Earth is actually pretty cool at the moment compared to its recent history. This chart covers 500 millon years, which sounds a lot but it's only just over 10% of the planet's age. Polar ice caps are not permanent things, and indeed Earth has spend much more time without them than it has with them. Now, some current life on Earth will struggle to adapt, and either evolve into something else or go extinct. But what's wrong with that? The doom and gloom rhetoric around a slight warming of the climate really, really irritates me.

Electric vehicles are not the answer to solving the tiny part of global emissions that come from personal transport. Whilst I would agree that pulling fossil fuel out of the ground to move us around will eventually be consigned to history, replacing it with pulling lithium out of the ground and then charging the resulting batteries with in many parts of the world fossil fuel generated electricity is no more sustainable. Again, the holier than thou rhetoric that battery EVs are going to save the world really, really irritates me. They simply swap one set of environmental problems for different ones.

 

[Sky]

 

[bass_junkie83]

It really does depend where you draw the line though. This is earth's temperature history over the past 500 million years. This is why I refuse to buy into this "climate crisis", the planet will be uninhabitable in a couple of thousand years nonsense. Yes the climate is changing, and yes we're probably driving at least some of it. But the climate is always changing. It has been much, much hotter than it is now in the past. As you can see from the chart below, Earth is actually pretty cool at the moment compared to its recent history. This chart covers 500 millon years, which sounds a lot but it's only just over 10% of the planet's age. Polar ice caps are not permanent things, and indeed Earth has spend much more time without them than it has with them. Now, some current life on Earth will struggle to adapt, and either evolve into something else or go extinct. But what's wrong with that? The doom and gloom rhetoric around a slight warming of the climate really, really irritates me.

Electric vehicles are not the answer to solving the tiny part of global emissions that come from personal transport. Whilst I would agree that pulling fossil fuel out of the ground to move us around will eventually be consigned to history, replacing it with pulling lithium out of the ground and then charging the resulting batteries with in many parts of the world fossil fuel generated electricity is no more sustainable. Again, the holier than thou rhetoric that battery EVs are going to save the world really, really irritates me. They simply swap one set of environmental problems for different ones.

View attachment 329445

The temperature isn't an issue, the temperature changing isn't an issue. Technically we are currently in an ice age as the definition is that there is ice at the poles iirc.

The issue is the rate of temperature change, and this seems to be what a lot of people are unable to get their head around, and what the infographic posted by Andy shows.

Global temperatures change, naturally, and they do so very gradually which allows life to evolve and find ways to adapt. We are currently in phase where the rate of temperature is unprecedented, and at a rate where it will become very difficult to adapt, if not impossible for some.

 

[Deleted sulking member 63079]

It really does depend where you draw the line though. This is earth's temperature history over the past 500 million years. This is why I refuse to buy into this "climate crisis", the planet will be uninhabitable in a couple of thousand years nonsense. Yes the climate is changing, and yes we're probably driving at least some of it. But the climate is always changing. It has been much, much hotter than it is now in the past. As you can see from the chart below, Earth is actually pretty cool at the moment compared to its recent history. This chart covers 500 millon years, which sounds a lot but it's only just over 10% of the planet's age. Polar ice caps are not permanent things, and indeed Earth has spend much more time without them than it has with them. Now, some current life on Earth will struggle to adapt, and either evolve into something else or go extinct. But what's wrong with that? The doom and gloom rhetoric around a slight warming of the climate really, really irritates me.

Electric vehicles are not the answer to solving the tiny part of global emissions that come from personal transport. Whilst I would agree that pulling fossil fuel out of the ground to move us around will eventually be consigned to history, replacing it with pulling lithium out of the ground and then charging the resulting batteries with in many parts of the world fossil fuel generated electricity is no more sustainable. Again, the holier than thou rhetoric that battery EVs are going to save the world really, really irritates me. They simply swap one set of environmental problems for different ones.

View attachment 329445

It is potentially quite doom and gloom as far as humans go, which I think is what most are concerned about. Of course the earth will continue to exist.

Electric cars aren't perfect, BUT, if you prioritise climate change, then digging up lithium for batteries has less impact than digging up and burning fossil fuels.

And your argument falls a little flat because it assumes we can only work on one things. If we move to electric vehicles AND make the power stations cleaner, the cars also get cleaner.