Van drivers, did you know that......

[mick m]

This came to light as a friend of mine was nicked for 71mph driving a Transit van on a dual carriageway. He wrote a letter explaining that he had never heard of anyone getting nicked for doing 1mph over the limit. The police wrote back explaing that 7 years ago the law changed regarding vans and he was being done for 11mph over the limit.

The law states that on a dual cariageway where a car can do 70, the limit for a van is 60. On a single carriageway where a car can do 60, for a van its 50.
The only exception to this rule is what they are calling car-derived vans like small Fiesta or Escort vans. So if you drive something like a Vito, Transit or similar panel van, beware.

See here http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/TravelA...G_178867?CID=TAT&PLA=url_mon&CRE=speed_limits

Mick.

 

[pepi1967]

well i never knew that. Good post.

 

[snipsnap]

50mph on a national speed limit. 60mph on dual carriageway and motorway.

Found this out when I was pulled over for 72 ish on main road. (He let me off, just like the traffic warden that morning.)

Vans based on a car chassis (e.g. Berlingo) not restricted.

Minibuses different speed limits though. Think my van might class as minibus cos there are two seats in the back (with belts) and a window.

 

[mick m]

The speed limit on motorways is the same for cars and vans, see above link.

Mick.

 

[Steep]

Vans based on a car chassis (e.g. Berlingo) not restricted.

Wrong there, only the very small vans based on cars like the fFesta or Clio have the same limit as normal cars. Berlingo, Partner, Kangoo, Connect all fall in to the bigger category and have the lower limits applied.

I found out about the new speed limits a year or two ago, lots of confusion among drivers about it though as I don't remember the change being publicised. Our work vehicles are all speed limited these days so not much chance of being done for speeding on the open road anyway.

 

[Steep]

/edit

 

[Rebel t3i]

you can't do 70 on a dual carriage way in a van but it is perfectly legal to do 70 in a reliant robin or regal go figure
so get yourself one of these

 

[digitalfailure]

Car derived is the key, if there is no directly comparable car model you must observe the lower limits.

 

[Flash In The Pan]

Car derived is the key, if there is no directly comparable car model you must observe the lower limits.

Would that mean then that the driver of a Kangoo or Berlingo van could legally travel at a higher speed than that of a Corsa Combo despite all three being roughly the same size, being that there are car versions of the Renault and Citroen, but not of the Vauxhall?

 

[Flash In The Pan]

Would that mean then that the driver of a Kangoo or Berlingo van could legally travel at a higher speed than that of a Corsa Combo despite all three being roughly the same size, being that there are car versions of the Renault and Citroen, but not of the Vauxhall?

Answering my own question, a bit of a Google suggest that this is indeed the case, according to a Senior Policy Advisor at the DFT -

When asked to comment on a specific vehicle this department has applied a rule of thumb that;
- vans sharing the same chassis and body shell with a car but with some of the window apertures filled with metal, appear to satisfy the definition of car-derived van.
- vans comprising a car chassis throughout and the car body-shell from front bumper to “B” post (the door-post behind the front-doors ;with, say, a box body behind), appear to satisfy the definition of car-derived van.

However, he goes on to say.....

Using those criteria, this Division recently advised an enquirer that the Vauxhall Combo did not appear to be a car-derived van since its wheel-base and track are different from those of the Corsa car. However, we added the caveat that our advice was subject to any decision made in a court of law. In the case of the Vauxhall Combo Kombi; this vehicle appears to be derived from the Combo van not the other way about. And therefore the Combo cannot be described as car-derived.

The same would therefore apply to a MKI Citroen Berlingo (as the "car" was derived from the already-in-production van), but not to the MKII, as (I think) both versions were launched simultaneously.....

 

[lizzy23]

Never knew that either, and we have a tranny

 

[My Kal]

Does anyone know if there's a specific list of van/models etc?

I always thought my VW Caddy was derived from a Touran, but it all
seems a bit "grey"!

 

[neil_g]

Does anyone know if there's a specific list of van/models etc?

I always thought my VW Caddy was derived from a Touran, but it all
seems a bit "grey"!

Was going to say, how does it work for vw transporters, campers and caddys

 

[Bernie174]

My Kal

It appears not, and the reason is within Flash in the Pans third quote:

However, we added the caveat that our advice was subject to any decision made in a court of law

Unfair and unreasonable as it sounds, it's the Courts that interprete the legislation. So while some things are obvious, some, like the Corase example will have to wait for someone to be stuck on, summonsed and the court to make a decision.
Anticipating the outrage that may cause, to an extent I agree, it does seem unfair, if you don't know you're breaking law, how can you avoid it. The stock answer will be though ignorance isn't a defence.

 

[Yellowbelly]

Does anyone know if there's a specific list of van/models etc?

I always thought my VW Caddy was derived from a Touran, but it all
seems a bit "grey"!

The lower limits definitely apply to the Caddy. I run one and I received a letter from VW a while back explaining the new rules.

 

[pepi1967]

Never knew that either, and we have a tranny

So do we. he Lives next door to me. not a pretty site in a mini skirt though:|

 

[billybob99]

I remember when I worked in a ford dealership with some company van drivers moaning about this when they changed from fiesta van to transit connect as the transit had the lower limit

 

[Yellowbelly]

I remember when I worked in a ford dealership with some company van drivers moaning about this when they changed from fiesta van to transit connect as the transit had the lower limit

Why did they moan? I don't see too many van drivers obeying any speed limits.

 

[Rebel t3i]

Surely the law should only apply to white vans roflol

 

[srichards]

It should be quite simple to add this information into a leaflet at VED renewal time for all vans that aren't car derived.

 

[H2O]

My Kal
if you don't know you're breaking law, how can you avoid it. The stock answer will be though ignorance isn't a defence.

While that's true surely they have an obligation to try and make people aware of changes to the law?

They seem to have made little to no effort with this as well as writing the law very badly if it's not completely clear what category a vehicle will fall in to. :-/

Not a particularly 'just' justice system IMO.

 

[KIPAX]

News to me as well.. I dont drive a van but its good to know if ever i hired one... suprising as well .. thanks OP

 

[Flash In The Pan]

Does anyone know if there's a specific list of van/models etc?

I always thought my VW Caddy was derived from a Touran, but it all
seems a bit "grey"!

The Caddy apparently doesn't qualify as it's not based on a car, as with the Transit Connect, even although there are "car" versions of both.

There doesn't appear to be an actual list either, so it would appear that one could be charged with an offence even if your vehicle did, on the face of it, meet the criteria and it would then be up to the driver to contest it in court...

 

[chuckles]

Surely it's the driver's responsibility to establish what the limits/laws are? We don't all get reminders if changes are made to the Highway Code? I know it's not law per se, but ignorance is no defence!

 

[lizzy23]

Surely the law should only apply to white vans roflol

definately, ours is Yellow

 

[Flash In The Pan]

Surely it's the driver's responsibility to establish what the limits/laws are? We don't all get reminders if changes are made to the Highway Code? I know it's not law per se, but ignorance is no defence!

The trouble is that there isn't a definitive list of which vehicles qualify and which don't, so who do you check with?

Even the DfT, as per the quote in my previous post, don't know, so how is Roads Policing Officer, never mind a member of the public, meant to?

 

[KIPAX]

Surely it's the driver's responsibility to establish what the limits/laws are? We don't all get reminders if changes are made to the Highway Code? I know it's not law per se, but ignorance is no defence!

Correct

 

[chuckles]

Very true... I'm very tempted to say ~ if in doubt drive at the lower limit! I guess we're (generally speaking and all exceptions accepted) dealing with a whole, select breed of driver who would not be aware of this concept of law-keeping!

(Is there a 'tongue-in-cheek' emoticon?)

 

[H2O]

Surely it's the driver's responsibility to establish what the limits/laws are? We don't all get reminders if changes are made to the Highway Code? I know it's not law per se, but ignorance is no defence!

That'll be why there's speed limit signs all over the place then. & why if they're not displayed properly or often enough you can get off a speeding fine. :-/

While it is our responsibility to know the law, the law makers/ enforcers also have a responsibility to make that knowledge available to us.

Based on the replies in this thread it really doesn't seem like they've fulfilled their obligation properly.

 

[Ploddles]

That'll be why there's speed limit signs all over the place then. & why if they're not displayed properly or often enough you can get off a speeding fine. :-/

While it is our responsibility to know the law, the law makers/ enforcers also have a responsibility to make that knowledge available to us.

Based on the replies in this thread it really doesn't seem like they've fulfilled their obligation properly.

They have made it available to you, it is clearly stated on their website, will be printed in the highway code etc.

It is also YOUR responsibility to make sure you know the limits when driving.

There are a hell of a lot of vehicles (vans/lorries) you see on the road with signs saying something along the lines of 'this vehicle is restricted to xx mph'. Why do you think they do that, just to annoy you??

What do you want the lawmakers to do? Write to everyone in the land whenever a law is changed etc.

 

[zeb]

I heard about this a few years ago and I was told that if the van has a fitted bulkhead between the driver and the back the new limits apply. Don't quote me on this thou.

 

[Flash In The Pan]

I heard about this a few years ago and I was told that if the van has a fitted bulkhead between the driver and the back the new limits apply. Don't quote me on this thou.

The Corsavan has a bulkhead, but it is a CDV and can travel legally at the upper limit....

 

[H2O]

It is also YOUR responsibility to make sure you know the limits when driving.

Yes, i said that.

They have made it available to you, it is clearly stated on their website, will be printed in the highway code etc.

It's clear there are restrictions. it's not clear EXACTLY which vehicles are covered by said restrictions. (Based soley on responses on this thread just like i said before)

I assume this law is due to the increased braking distances of larger vehicles? if so why is it not a clear line like every vehicle over x weight has to abide by the lower limits?

What possible difference does it being derived from a road car make? :shrug:

Also, why would i think to check a website when driving a vehicle not much bigger than a car on the same licence as my car? (can i drive any of these on a normal licence? it not can i drive other vehicles on the needed licence at the full speed limit?)

As an example, I'd of thought a note on the relevent tax disc reminder would be a cheap & easy way to keep people informed. :shrug:

There are a hell of a lot of vehicles (vans/lorries) you see on the road with signs saying something along the lines of 'this vehicle is restricted to xx mph'. Why do you think they do that, just to annoy you??

I never mentioned or implied anythin about this. Also, relevance?

It's pretty obvious why vehicles have notices on them to say they're speed limited. It's simpley a safety sign so other drivers can know how/ why they are reacting the way they are.

It's also not automatically clear from those signs the full reasons for the limit (could just be a company policy for example) or what other vehicles might require the same restrictions.

What do you want the lawmakers to do? Write to everyone in the land whenever a law is changed etc.

If the law is likely to impact on everyone in the land directly then yes. Are we supposed to just psychically know every time a law relating to something we do changes?

I don't know about anyone else but i don't go around constantly checking for law revisions before i do anything...

 

[Trex500]

What possible difference does it being derived from a road car make?

I understood its because of the possible weight carrying the van can take. A derived car/van would have difficulty carrying large weight.
Though I stand to be corrected on this.!!

 

[wegotitugetit]

yeah i found out a few years ago my frined got done doing 70 mph thought the copper was having a laugh told him to efff off lol so been silly barstweard untill he was shown a document lucky for him the copper let him off with a warning

i was driving many a times doing 70 in a van and still forget now lol

 

[Stratman]

When you applied for your driving licence you signed an undertaking to keep up to date with changes to the Highway Code and all relevant legislation.

How you do it is up to you, but do it you must as it's your responsibility.

 

[H2O]

What possible difference does it being derived from a road car make?

I understood its because of the possible weight carrying the van can take. A derived car/van would have difficulty carrying large weight.
Though I stand to be corrected on this.!!

Surely a vehicle designed to carry larger volume/ heavier items would have it's suspension/ brakes upgraded (compared to other vehicles) to suit though.

Anyone can fill their car with paving slabs and be a danger becuase of it. That's why all vehicles have easily identified max load capacities.


If that's the case it should be set by a braking distance test at max weight load.

A test that should be done on every new vehicle model before going on sale. (like the NCAP safety tests)

Any vehicle that can't stop within a set distance at a given speed & max load should go into the lower limit category.

That'd give a clear list for us to follow as well as being a much fairer system IMO



or just any vehicle regardless of type with a max load capacity over x uses the lower speed limit. (as that's something easily identified and avoids any confusion over the completely unneeded 'car-derived' term)

 

[Bernie174]

If the law is likely to impact on everyone in the land directly then yes. Are we supposed to just psychically know every time a law relating to something we do changes?

Firstly, this legislation doesn't impact on everyone, just people driving vans.

The principle is though that if you take the responsibility of driving a vehicle it's up to you to find out what restrictions apply to them. Those restrictions are available in the highway code as well as the web site linked early on.

Thats the same with any activity, for example if you decided to sell alcohol, you'd look into the law allowing you to do that before you just started flogging it. Expecting the state to constantly wipe the public's backside is part of the reason why the country is broken!

The idea of a 'list of vehicles' isn't practical, new models are released often. New vehicles may fall into a category where putting it in a definitive category would be wrong without a court mulling it over.

In any case, the process is Parliament makes and passes law. Police enforce it, courts interpret it.

Even if Parliament produced a list, it's still open to challenge in a court, so you gain nothing from it.

 

[H2O]

Firstly, this legislation doesn't impact on everyone, just people driving vans.

Yes, that particular line was me being general. IF a law did that that's what i'd expect. Not saying this law applies.

The principle is though that if you take the responsibility of driving a vehicle it's up to you to find out what restrictions apply to them. Those restrictions are available in the highway code as well as the web site linked early on.

That's fine when you first start but as a car driver how often do you check for revisions if no one makes any effort to notify you of them?

I suspect you don't check every time you get in the car?

Expecting the state to constantly wipe the public's backside is part of the reason why the country is broken!

Never said that. & as you're the second person not reading that i don't want everything done for me i'll add a quote from earlier.

While it is our responsibility to know the law, the law makers/ enforcers also have a responsibility to make that knowledge available to us.

The idea of a 'list of vehicles' isn't practical, new models are released often. New vehicles may fall into a category where putting it in a definitive category would be wrong without a court mulling it over.

True.

I think this is though,

If that's the case it should be set by a braking distance test at max weight load.

A test that should be done on every new vehicle model before going on sale. (like the NCAP safety tests)

Any vehicle that can't stop within a set distance at a given speed & max load should go into the lower limit category.

That'd give a clear list for us to follow as well as being a much fairer system IMO

or

any vehicle regardless of type with a max load capacity over x uses the lower speed limit. (as that's something easily identified and avoids any confusion over the completely unneeded 'car-derived' term)

& using them it would be easy to make a definitive list of how the law would cover new vehicles.

 

[Flash In The Pan]

& using them it would be easy to make a definitive list of how the law would cover new vehicles.

There is a definition in law, as stated in my quote from the DfT man, for a van to be "car derived" it needs to share its structure/chassis etc with an existing car as far back as the 'B' post (essentially the rearmost part of the front doors) and retain the track and wheelbase of the car.

The only ambiguity is where the "car" version is based on the van (as in the examples given previously) and not the other way round.