v.a.t from Europe

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Raymond Lin said:
I mean that is the exactly thing i am saying, you just say "it's fine!" but offer zero awareness as to the problem.
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That goes down to Boris and his merry men driving for change (leave the EU) but not having any plan on what to do once we got there. I've been a Tory voter all of my life, but I look at what has transpired over the last 5 years and realise that it was all bluff and bluster, not one of the "leavers" had a clue, and wouldn't listen to anyone who tried to explain it.

There is no doubt that the EU needed some form of reform, and I think Cameron thought that by having the vote it would put some pressure on the EU, but they stood firm, and he ended up with egg on his face. When he was wrong he just ran for cover leaving a total mess behind him. It seems to me that he was another without a plan....
 
All the UK has done is implement an EU Directive from the 1st of Jan this year, the EU has chosen to delay the implementation until Jul 2021.

rbcvat.com

European Commission proposes to delay implementation of the VAT e-commerce Directive - rbcVAT Limited

The European Commission has proposed a six month delay in the implementation of the VAT e-commerce Directive. The new rules will now enter into force on 1 July 2021.
rbcvat.com

The main difference here is that the onus is now on the seller to collect the VAT and pass it to HMRC, and after 1/7/21 sellers selling into the EU will have to undertake the same procedure (not sure how the varying VAT rates across Europe come into play here), but effectively if they sell to both UK and EU, then will have to collect the respective VAT due and forward it.

This may result in some smaller traders feeling that its not worth their while, but I suspect taht we will see more selling through on line' shops such as eBay and Etsy which will collect teh VAT on their behalf.

This has the potential of levelling playing fileds as less low value items (£135 or less) will now pass under the radar.
 
Raymond Lin said:
FYI I know all that thank you very much. If you read my screenshot you will see I stated TO THE SELLER of the £135 value and where VAT was collected.

It was actually £18 for normal and £36 for gift at one point in the past. It was lowered to £15. I have been buying stuff online from around the world for 2 years. I even know a trick on how to get the admin fee taken off FedEx packages.



Everything comes at a cost, you want it, you pay for it, such as life. So if you want sovereignty, pay for it. I think that is perfectly fair.

It's not about paying for a company who doesn't want to put an effort in, it's because of people like you, I gather you voted leave (which I am surprise about given that you have travelled), and not thought about the consequences of your vote. Freedom of Movement of Goods, that came to an end. What I find alarming is those who voted remain warned about all this, they know something like this was coming, and they would have prepared given the time, but those who voted leave literally all they will say and could say is "it will all be okay eventually". Yet offer ZERO solution, Offer ZERO awareness, completely clueless as to the size of the problem because they put their head in the sand.

As to many parts of the world no part of the EU, have you looked at a globe lately? Know where we are? Do you think you can drive over some Strawberries from Japan or do you think driving it over from Spain would be easier? Do you know how long those systems have been set up with the rest of the world and do you know how long they have had to set this up with the EU currently? Hint Hint, it's a week.

I mean that is the exactly thing i am saying, you just say "it's fine!" but offer zero awareness as to the problem.
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Raymond. Thanks for all that but I still don't see why on earth should I pay for a company in Rotterdam who don't want to put the effort in. If they want to pay me to sort it out for them that's another matter :D

I'm not going to get into politics here other than to say I'm a left leaning outward looking internationalist married to an immigrant. Why would I want to be tied to overwhelmingly white, aging and increasingly right wing EC with protectionist tendencies? Why would I wish for a situation where an Italian (or all of them) can wake up and decide to come and live next door to me and face no barriers when what my wife has to go through is expensive, lengthy and bureaucratic? Should we all be equal and face equal processes with no undue advantage or barriers? Simple answer. Yes. And to go back in history.... some of the left recently opposed Brexit but years ago the left largely opposed us joining. I could explain why to you but this isn't a political thread.

My last word on the process.

This is just a process. It's not insurmountable and if a company can't or won't work out what to do or can't be bothered use another company.

In time this will probably all settle down and just like with the 2k fiasco (remember that?) RoSH, WEEE, REACH and every single product and import / export hoop people have to jump through... There's an answer... If companies can't do it themselves they can buy in the solution or lose the sale and every other sale they could have made to that market.

And with that I'm out :D
 
woof woof said:
That's it in a nutshell. Some just don't want the bother but as I mentioned above this may be a bother for one sale but once you've learned the process for that market it's the same for every sale until the rules change again. So, time and effort spent for one = not worth it... but spend that time and effort and you're sorted for every sale until the rules change again.

As above, if I walked into this with no help and managed perfectly well for 12 years with not one problem I'm sure others can manage too. If they really want to.
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'Bother' is of course shorthand for time and money. It's a business decision. They have to maintain a tax account with HMRC, send payments, keep UK tax records for 6 years, track any changes in our tax laws, etc. Not only is this not the case for trading with other EU countries, it's not the case for trading with most other countries, where it isn't necessary to set up an account with the local tax office, and tax can be collected on import.

So why have we put ourselves in this uniquely disadvantageous position? The EU is going to start requiring traders in third countries to collect VAT on their behalf later in the year to combat tax evasion on imports, and we have crudely implemented our own rather onerous version of this system (it is, after all, the HMRC). One rather significant difference is that third country traders will only have to make a single arrangement to deal with all 27 EU countries, but an entirely separate arrangement to deal with us. Traders within the EU will not, of course, need to do anything at all, except when dealing with us.
 
This topic always goes the same way.

People who voted remain - There is going to be a lot of problems.
People who voted leave - It's going to be fine!

People who voted remain - Look at all these problems we told you would happen.
People who voted leave - It's going to be fine!

My observation is that the people who are fixing it as the ones who saw there would be problems and likely all voted remain (because they saw it coming) are the ones picking up the pieces whilst the people who voted leave just keep going "It's going to be fine!" whilst living out in the sticks imaging things don't affect them.
 
Mr Perceptive said:
All the UK has done is implement an EU Directive from the 1st of Jan this year, the EU has chosen to delay the implementation until Jul 2021.

rbcvat.com

European Commission proposes to delay implementation of the VAT e-commerce Directive - rbcVAT Limited

The European Commission has proposed a six month delay in the implementation of the VAT e-commerce Directive. The new rules will now enter into force on 1 July 2021.
rbcvat.com

The main difference here is that the onus is now on the seller to collect the VAT and pass it to HMRC, and after 1/7/21 sellers selling into the EU will have to undertake the same procedure (not sure how the varying VAT rates across Europe come into play here), but effectively if they sell to both UK and EU, then will have to collect the respective VAT due and forward it.

This may result in some smaller traders feeling that its not worth their while, but I suspect taht we will see more selling through on line' shops such as eBay and Etsy which will collect teh VAT on their behalf.

This has the potential of levelling playing fileds as less low value items (£135 or less) will now pass under the radar.
Click to expand...

I knew this too and you'd think the smart move would be for us and the whole europe to do it on the same timetable....
 
woof woof said:
Raymond. Thanks for all that but I still don't see why on earth should I pay for a company in Rotterdam who don't want to put the effort in. If they want to pay me to sort it out for them that's another matter :D

I'm not going to get into politics here other than to say I'm a left leaning outward looking internationalist married to an immigrant. Why would I want to be tied to overwhelmingly white, aging and increasingly right wing EC with protectionist tendencies? Why would I wish for a situation where an Italian (or all of them) can wake up and decide to come and live next door to me and face no barriers when what my wife has to go through is expensive, lengthy and bureaucratic? Should we all be equal and face equal processes with no undue advantage or barriers? Simple answer. Yes. And to go back in history.... some of the left recently opposed Brexit but years ago the left largely opposed us joining. I could explain why to you but this isn't a political thread.

My last word on the process.

This is just a process. It's not insurmountable and if a company can't or won't work out what to do or can't be bothered use another company.

In time this will probably all settle down and just like with the 2k fiasco (remember that?) RoSH, WEEE, REACH and every single product and import / export hoop people have to jump through... There's an answer... If companies can't do it themselves they can buy in the solution or lose the sale and every other sale they could have made to that market.

And with that I'm out :D
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Aka, It's going to be fine!

Whilst other people picking up your mess. Just an observation.

Although I do love the irony in this sentence.

I'm a left leaning outward looking internationalist married to an immigrant. Why would I want to be tied to overwhelmingly white, aging and increasingly right wing EC with protectionist tendencies?
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You are right-wing and you don't know it, the idea of leaving the EU itself is a right wing concept, to stay in the EU would be left-wing. Also, immigration is a way to lower the average age of a population. Japan has a 98% ethnic local population and they are on a decline with the average age shooting up. It is what happens to a 1st world country when people are only having 1 to 2 kids rather than like 4-5 that is the norm in less developed countries. So what you have done by voting leave is a complete contradiction of your own moral values. Your political compass is not what you say but what you do.

You are, from my observation is a right-wing nationalist who is married to an immigrant. That is who you are by the effect of your leave vote. You can't claim you are an "internationalist" and want to leave the EU. Those 2 are opposite sides of the coin.

and married to an immigrant doesn't mean you are left wing. Donald Trump is married to an immigrant. One can be right-wing and married to an immigrant.

p.s. I work in an international company for Food Wholesale, we import a lot of goods from Europe...if you still want that lettuce in the winter....they aren't going to grow in Essex! So I know in the background what a mess this is causing.
 
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This sort of thing makes me wonder what incompetent people used to blame before Brexit and Covid-19 came along! :confused:
 
the black fox said:
And why not ,we must learn from history .. I think you will find the whole Brexit thing stems from the fact that the majority of the u.k population did not want to be ruled by what was heading for all intents and purposes towards a fourth reich. ... yes I could have worded it more flowery but why should I ..
Yes mistakes have been made but I really do wonder how much of was simply chess moves to make it into a unworkable scenario ,somewhere in the midst of all this there will be people in the u.k and in Europe rubbing there hands in glee while there bank balance. Increases .
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The problem is that I do not believe the majority of people wanted the situation we now find ourselves in.
The original referendum was very close, and there were clearly misleading statements put out by the leave campaign, as well as those who voted leave as a 'protest' against the Conservative Government.
There were also the significant proportion who didn't vote - so we don't know what they wanted.

There were calls for a second referendum to determine if, after all the bickering following the referendum and the failure of Parliament to come up with a route out they could agree on, people still wanted to leave, but this was dismissed as 'undemocratic' (I can understand it being dismissed as an unnecessary expense, if it was truly believed that there was no chance of the result changing, but undemocratic?).

Instead, we had a GE, which was dominated as much by keeping Corbyn out as by Bexit - in which our FPTP system meant that a MINORITY of the popular vote leads to a large majority in Parliament - which was then claimed by Boris & Co as the majority wanting to leave.
 
woof woof said:
Can we please drop the Leave/Remain aspect of this?

We had a referendum and a GE over this and whinging on here isn't going to get us back in the EU.

I do suspect that at least a part of this is generated by people who don't want this to work or see this as an excuse not to bother.
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Now that is an interesting stance to take.

I was under the impression we had a referendum on it, but the Leave people didn't want it to work and my goodness, they whinged...
 
4wd said:
If VAT is being added for a sale to UK surely the EU seller won't be adding EU VAT too?
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This ^^^

Business sellers in the EU should not be charging VAT in their local currency / rate then charging UK vat again, I suspect most will try to though / increase their margin by the equivalent local VAT amount.
 
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Mr Badger said:
This sort of thing makes me wonder what incompetent people used to blame before Brexit and Covid-19 came along! :confused:
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It's not just incompetent people who are unhappy with the current situation.
Many of the things blamed on Covid are real issues caused by trying to slow infection, or actually people being infected & people dying.

Many of the things blamed on Brexit are actually down to the conditions settled for by BoJo & co. Especially due to the last minute implementation.

Many of the issues blamed on the EU will still be issues for us in the future, some may be improved but not as many as the brexiteers promised.
I don't feel the improvements come close to cancelling out the new issues we have, but I understand there are others who still disagree.

Overturning 40 years of status quo with a vague set of agreements, is going to take a huge amount of work. Hopefully there are enough competent people to get through it all before the country totally collapses. With the added pressure of Covid it's going to be even more of a challenge :(
 
the black fox said:
I think it was obvious from the start that Johny foreigner was going to try to make it as difficult as possible for us. the ungrateful bar stewards forget what we did for them in the 1940's ... but every dog has his day ... out turn will come
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It's mind boggling that more than two generations since the end of WW11 some people simply cannot let go of "the ungrateful bar stewards forget" scenario as an excuse for the situation we have willingly found ourselves in.
It's got nothing to do with learning from history but more to do with taking responsibility for our own actions.
 
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Terrywoodenpic said:
People have got exactly what they voted for. Personal import trade will dry up with Europe.
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Some people have got what they voted for, just under 50% of those who voted actually preferred to stay in the EU, and what 'Brexit' actually meant was a matter of some debate, so of the just over 50% who voted to leave, not all got what they personally voted for (some wanted WTO, some 'soft Brexit', etc.).
 
Look, surprise surprise!

I0dUiap.png
 
SFTPhotography said:
I voted leave, I am proud to have voted leave and the stuff on the red bus had nothing to do with my vote.

Just pay the tarrifs, charges or source stuff from either here, or countries where we have an FTA.

It's not hard.
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You write something under 30seconds that undone 40 years of legal framework, delivery framework, logistic framework.

Yeah, it's that easy isn't it? This is the problem, you are clueless to the size of the problem. Just source stuff either here or there....totally clueless.
 
Raymond Lin said:
Look, surprise surprise!

I0dUiap.png
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I had to return an item to Belgium this week via UPS and the supplier has had to create return shipping invoices to attach to the parcel and the UPS driver insisted on having a second copy for their records.
 
imattersuk said:
I had to return an item to Belgium this week via UPS and the supplier has had to create return shipping invoices to attach to the parcel and the UPS driver insisted on having a second copy for their records.
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2nd copy is expected, I done that a few times with parcels to the US. I actually do 3 copies (better be safe than sorry). I put it in a clear plastic envelope stuck to the parcel.
 
[
Raymond Lin said:
You write something under 30seconds that undone 40 years of legal framework, delivery framework, logistic framework
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It's not as if these frameworks magically disappeared - and they've been required for non-EU transactions.

And not 40 years. The customs and VAT handling with the EU evolved - they started to ease in the 1990s but ISTR didn't settle into their pre-Brexit state until the early 2000s.

And as for the size of the problem .... well there's been 4.5 years between June 2016 and January 2021. That's definitely olnger than 30 seconds. Those 4.5 year were wasted. I think the separation could have been handled better in that time with some sort of proper phasing. Instead both sides let it politically and emotionally twist and turn over those 4.5 years and we end up with it going to the brink and then a kind of 'big bang' as everything changes.
 
Dryce said:
It's not as if these frameworks magically disappeared - and they've been required for non-EU transactions.
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The new system that requires UK VAT to be levied at origin was not previously required for non-EU transactions.
 
Dryce said:
It's not as if these frameworks magically disappeared - and they've been required for non-EU transactions.

And not 40 years. The customs and VAT handling with the EU evolved - they started to ease in the 1990s but ISTR didn't settle into their pre-Brexit state until the early 2000s.

And as for the size of the problem .... well there's been 4.5 years between June 2016 and January 2021. That's definitely longer than 30 seconds. Those 4.5 year were wasted. I think the separation could have been handled better in that time with some sort of proper phasing. Instead both sides let it politically and emotionally twist and turn over those 4.5 years and we end up with it going to the brink and then a kind of 'big bang' as everything changes.
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I don't think anyone would disagree with the bit I highlighted in bold (much of the rest is probably true too).
The final brinkmanship & refusal of any sort of delayed implementation is near to the worst of all possible solutions for anyone needing to buy things across these borders.
For some of the laboratory kit I previously used that was imported from the EU by the distributer I brought it from my best bet is now to wait till covid allows me to travel & bring it back as hand luggage dealing with customs duty etc at the border. There is nowhere else in the world making equivalent parts & the manufacturer will no longer sell to the UK.
Hopefully the few I have left will keep me going for some months...
 
Retune said:
The new system that requires UK VAT to be levied at origin was not previously required for non-EU transactions.
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Yes. That has been pointed out elsewhere. But the post I was responding to referenced a comment related leaving the EU.

(And the EU is making similar changes to the UK in July.)
 
Dryce said:
[

It's not as if these frameworks magically disappeared - and they've been required for non-EU transactions.

And not 40 years. The customs and VAT handling with the EU evolved - they started to ease in the 1990s but ISTR didn't settle into their pre-Brexit state until the early 2000s.

And as for the size of the problem .... well there's been 4.5 years between June 2016 and January 2021. That's definitely olnger than 30 seconds. Those 4.5 year were wasted. I think the separation could have been handled better in that time with some sort of proper phasing. Instead both sides let it politically and emotionally twist and turn over those 4.5 years and we end up with it going to the brink and then a kind of 'big bang' as everything changes.
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30 seconds for him to type out his post of "just get on with it". Not 30 seconds to set it up since the vote.

Either way, everything all came to the last minute, we weren't sure if we were going to do a No Deal until Christmas.
 
Raymond Lin said:
30 seconds for him to type out his post of "just get on with it". Not 30 seconds to set it up since the vote.

Either way, everything all came to the last minute, we weren't sure if we were going to do a No Deal until Christmas.
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Less than 30 seconds :D

Look - deal with it. Pay the tariffs and stop moaning about something the outcome of a vote that had the highest electoral turn out in history.
 
SFTPhotography said:
Just pay the tarrifs, charges or source stuff from either here, or countries where we have an FTA.

It's not hard.
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Its not easy - a lot of stuff comes from outside if the UK without you realising (like Nikon lenses or Bose Speakers, as I'm currently finding out to my cost)
 
SFTPhotography said:
Less than 30 seconds :D

Look - deal with it. Pay the tariffs and stop moaning about something the outcome of a vote that had the highest electoral turn out in history.
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We are, the people who work in importing are exporting are actually doing to HARD work "dealing with it", while you sit in your sofa with all that bravado and not helping or even understand the size of the task at hand.
 
Dryce said:
(And the EU is making similar changes to the UK in July.)
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They are. But a single arrangement will give overseas exporters access to all EU countries. Whether or not this is a good idea, it's a little different to a single country expecting traders from every other country in the world to set up an account with its internal revenue service and deal with all the paperwork that requires. We are now in a situation where the UK is the only country anywhere that some traders will not deal with. One Dutch company puts his rather well:

'Unfortunately, we will not be able to send parcels to the UK from mid December 2020 onward. Quite apart from uncertainty due to Brexit surrounding the shipping cost, taxation etc. after that time, there is also a problem caused by the British government deciding to impose a unique taxation regime which will require every company in the world in every country in the world outside the UK which exports to the UK to apply and collect British taxes on behalf of the British government. For providing this service they intend to charge a fee to every company in the world in every country in the world which exports to the UK. Clearly this is ludicrous for one country, but imagine if every country in the world had the same idea. If every country decided to behave in the same way then we would have to pay 195 fees every year, keep up with the changes in taxation law for 195 different countries, keep accounts on behalf of 195 different countries and submit payments to 195 tax offices in 195 different countries, and jump through whatever hoops were required to prove that we were doing all of this honestly and without any error.

Therefore from mid December 2020 onward we ship to every country in the world... except the UK.

We have many customers within the UK and would like to be able to trade with them. Not being able to send parcels to the UK does not work in any way in our favour and it is not what we wanted. We are forced by British policy to stop dealing with British customers. If you're angry about this, and you may well be so, please contact your elected representative in the UK.'

There are many other examples:

docs.google.com

BrexitImpacts

docs.google.com docs.google.com
 
boyfalldown said:
Its not easy - a lot of stuff comes from outside if the UK without you realising (like Nikon lenses or Bose Speakers, as I'm currently finding out to my cost)
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Yes - and in the case of Nikon Lenses probably from Asia - which is not a part of Europe. I've just bought two things from Japan and it was as easy as falling off a log. I believe we have a FTA with Japan. I'll take a pass as to where Bose stuff comes from - Music/audio isn't a thing for me.

Regarding importing things from the EU - well we have a basic FTA in place for certain items and some items are subject to import duty - much in the same was as goods are, and were, from the USA. I bought some stuff off Amazon US years ago and paid at the post office some money to cover the relevant import duties.

I don't understand the big deal or why this is remotely news worthy.

Raymond Lin said:
We are, the people who work in importing are exporting are actually doing to HARD work "dealing with it", while you sit in your sofa with all that bravado and not helping or even understand the size of the task at hand.
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You mean - they are doing the jobs they are paid to do. Bravo. That's how work works.
 
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SFTPhotography said:
You mean - they are doing the jobs they are paid to do. Bravo. That's how work works.
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We are picking up the mess that you caused, and not help fixing or even trying to understand.

Like you even said, you don't understand.
 
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Raymond Lin said:
We are picking up the mess that you caused, and not help fixing or even trying to understand.

From the evident of your posts "just get on with it", is what you are doing.
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Wait a minute. When you say we - who are "we". What is it you do exactly? Can you please tell us?

If you are a public servant and you are making a statement like that - then you are not fit to serve the public. A public servants job is to serve the public, not complain about their wishes or what they vote for - but to dutifully, and with good grace, implement their wishes rather than grudgingly complain about it.

If you work for a private company - your role is to carry out your duties with good grace and serve the wishes of your employer. If you run your own business - fine - but if you don't adapt, you die. I suggest you adapt if that is you.

The fact you describe the outcome of something as "your mess" which had an absolute mandate to happen ( - the referendum had the highest electoral turn out (75% approx of the electorate) and won (401 seats so more than any government has ever won in an election)) is a poor showing.
 
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