Using worklights for portraits

Ham

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Wondering about using some LED worklights for kids portraits, mainly to provide a catchlight. LED are mostly going to be at the daylight end of the spectrum, and should be amenable to wrapping with greaseproof or the like to diffuse. Silly idea or workable?

(apols if this has been done before, search didn't throw it up and most titles aren't very explanatory)
 
Only if you hate the kids:)
They will be dazzled by the light even though, for photographic purposes, it has very little usable power.

And although they are theoretically at the daylight end of the colour spectrum, in reality they are made down to a price and the Color Rendition Index (CRI) will be very low, usually in the 60's, compared to daylight and flash which is at a perfect 100. What this means is that some colours won't reproduce correctly.
In terms of diffusion they will probably be OK for kids, because soft lighting isn't needed for perfect skin.

See this https://www.talkphotography.co.uk/tutorials/led-lights-or-flash.152/
 
Good point about the cri, I was intending to molish a diffuser using some multi wall roofing sheet I have spare (35mm,9 wall) with maybe added paper.

Just for the record, Phillips GU10 have claimed CRI in the high 90's, I swapped to them a while back (they are completely glass encased as well) and have no reason to argue. I also have a Sansi 27w, which pushes out some 4000 lumens at a reasonable CRI , too.

Might just have a go for the hell of it, anyhow.
 
There are plenty of LED lights with good CRI. I have a couple of Godox VL150s which are 96, in fact, and they’re fine for portraits/headshots (although I do tend to use flash).
 
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That's true, but the typical worklight is unlikely to be so blessed.

As it happens, the problem I'm trying to solve is photographing my grandchildren for my daughter, location wise our front room seems favourite, I've had good results previously using natural light with our Victorian sashes doing excellent service as a light source, but timing will not likely help this time. Ultimately, I may just have to lash out on some studio lights, at least the cause gives me a perfect stamp in the import documentation to show to customs control :sneaky:
 
Good point about the cri, I was intending to molish a diffuser using some multi wall roofing sheet I have spare (35mm,9 wall) with maybe added paper.

Just for the record, Phillips GU10 have claimed CRI in the high 90's, I swapped to them a while back (they are completely glass encased as well) and have no reason to argue. I also have a Sansi 27w, which pushes out some 4000 lumens at a reasonable CRI , too.

Might just have a go for the hell of it, anyhow.
If you have them I see no reason not to give it a go... to a large extent light-is-light, regardless of the source.
And similarly, it's not generally a great idea to buy new kit until you figure out what you cannot do with the kit you already have; and therefore know what problem you need to solve.
 
If you have them I see no reason not to give it a go... to a large extent light-is-light, regardless of the source.
And similarly, it's not generally a great idea to buy new kit until you figure out what you cannot do with the kit you already have; and therefore know what problem you need to solve.
Whether or not it works photographically, it isn't something that I'd do to kids.

A bit like being dazzled by main beam headlights . . .
 
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Whether or not it works photographically, it isn't something that I'd do to kids.

A bit like being dazzled by main beam headlights . . .
If off to the side at around 45˚ it shouldn't be an issue; just don't look directly at them... even less of an issue if put behind diffusion screening as planned.
 
If you have them I see no reason not to give it a go... to a large extent light-is-light, regardless of the source.
And similarly, it's not generally a great idea to buy new kit until you figure out what you cannot do with the kit you already have; and therefore know what problem you need to solve.
Well that's easy. The kit I've got includes zero studio lighting, so any time I've wanted to do portraiture in the past I've either found a location or hired/begged/borrowed a studio. I'd like to be able to record images of my grandchildren growing up, with studio quality as well as candid. Curiously it was the surprisingly good quality from my new pixel 6 Pro that made me think, that's good but I could do better if I tried.

Anyhow, with the customs declaration sorted (ok she doesn't quite know the value of the shipment) I've got some cheap gear on the way from everyone's favourite Brazilian rainforest and River. I've got a couple of soft boxes with CFL, a point source and while I was at it some background stuff too, all for less than £200. Let's see how I get on with that. I could have read up on other people's experiences first, but I figured if I'd gone down that rabbit hole I'd never get out on time.

My little crimbo pressie to me.
 
I've got a couple of soft boxes with CFL, a point source and while I was at it some background stuff too, all for less than £200.
Uhmm...
it's not generally a great idea to buy new kit until you figure out what you cannot do with the kit you already have; and therefore know what problem you need to solve.
 
Okkkkkkkkkkaaaay..... Two soft boxes will allow me to provide direct and/or indirect lighting, while the point source will give me catch lights. None of which I can currently do as I only have reflectors, not lights
 
Okkkkkkkkkkaaaay..... Two soft boxes will allow me to provide direct and/or indirect lighting, while the point source will give me catch lights. None of which I can currently do as I only have reflectors, not lights
I understood it that you already have the LED bulbs and paper for diffusion... you can do a lot with that; even if you needed to buy/rig some bulb holders/stands.
But the cheap CFL lighting kits/softboxes are just about the worst investment in lighting you can make IMO...
 
No I don't have any LED worklights on stands, so I would have had to buy them, and then b****r around with them. For the same or less I now (or at least, tomorrow) have a couple of boxes that push out 4-5,000 lumens, and have covers over the front that should be easy to adapt if needed, the bulbs can be replaced for £30 the two. The stands may not be the best, but I expect them to be functional in a basic way and amenable to ministrations with welding gear if appropriate. I don't regard the cheapie units as an investment of any kind, but they can function as learning tools. I've never been that attracted to studio work, but I've tried a bit here and there over the years. If I can make these work for me and - as you say - if I feel that it is holding me back, then I can splash out for some decent kit. As it is, the whole shebang is less than half the cost of a single decent light. At that time if I can hand the gear on to a good cause, or possibly sell it, it will have done the job I'm asking of it.
 
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I've got a couple of soft boxes with CFL, a point source and while I was at it some background stuff too, all for less than £200.

:facepalm: :banghead:
 
You should be aware that LEDs may also pulse, rather than offering a true continuous light source like a filament lamp does.
 
:facepalm: :banghead:
That's an interesting, thought provoking and meaningful reply.

I do understand that it is exceedingly likely that in several hundred pages of studio and lighting specific topics, this topic may have been done to death but as I note in my OP, I could not easily find it. Personally I can't see the issue risking a small amount of cash to experiment and dip a toe into personally owned kit, maybe you can.

You should be aware that LEDs may also pulse, rather than offering a true continuous light source like a filament lamp does.

Indeed, that's why I went for cheap CFL rather than cheap LED, I also have the Sansi 27w LED that might do good service, and those are flicker free. (FTR, Sansi are some of the best quality LED you can lay your hands on)
 
This is a good read. Stick with it fella i'm looking forwards to hearing about the results. Fingers crossed all goes well.

Have fun.

Gaz
 
That's an interesting, thought provoking and meaningful reply.
Like so many new people on here; you ask advice then do the complete opposite. You could have got yourself a couple of Godox studio lights for the same money and then added to them as you needed to. Instead, you'll realise what a load of crap you just bought and will end up either binning them or returning them.
 
Like so many new people on here; you ask advice then do the complete opposite. You could have got yourself a couple of Godox studio lights for the same money and then added to them as you needed to. Instead, you'll realise what a load of crap you just bought and will end up either binning them or returning them.

Ah yes, pardon me, only the odd fifty years snapping away, and only two years here, not a whole three like some. My bad.

My combative response is said in good humour, but for a real purpose. Not only was your post unhelpful, exhibiting a typical "forum clique" attitude, but you are also (believe it or not) completely wrong.

I came on here to ask about using worklights for photo shoots, as in contrast to cheap photo gear, cheap worklights are fully functional and could be always used for their intended purpose. By posting here I was quickly reminded of the light quality of cheap LED so kicked that idea into touch (and, led me to Gary's book which is a mine of information). There's been some discussion around cheap LED, which has led me towards the CFL option, and nobody saying that the cheap stuff is a total waste of time, certainly not while backing it up with any hard facts. And, as far as being able to buy 2 Godox lights for £70? yeah, well, good luck.
 
I apologise if I got the wrong end of the stick Ham, but I still think you've wasted your money.

I'm not recommending this kit, but just to make a point. For a few quid more you could get far better results:

 
No offense taken, all forums have their own subculture, most try to be welcoming, it does no harm to have a reality check from time to time, I know I've been guilty of being my own proctologist before now.

The Godox really are in a different league and price bracket. Should it prove that I can use the lights effectively and find myself hamstrung by their quality, I will happily lash out on better ones. Whether I find some sucker to take the used ones off me or I donate them to a good cause, for £70 I'm not going to worry. Anyhow, they've arrived now, so I'll write up my first impressions
 
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The cheap lights I've bought are these https://smile.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B084P4GFGL/, chosen for various reasons including branding, quality of negative reviews. While not the cheapest, I was even more wary of the cheaper ones, after all a couple of decent CFL can cost £30, it would be interesting to know if the cheaper ones are identical. I've found that even with things made from purest Chinesium, there are quality differences, I was hoping for that here.

First impressions out the box are actually surprisingly good. The stands are ally with reasonable chunks of plastic for the joints. Captive nuts and the plastic thumbscrews for the telescopic section are often a weakness in this kind of kit, if I was scoring this out of 5 with 1 as worst and 5 as best, I'd give this a 2, so better than I was expecting (which was a 1). The leg stays are thin and riveted to hinge on the body and leg, quality of rivet joint looks better than expected with quite a lot of rivet peen over, no washers which would have been good. Quality of fit of the sliding parts is excellent, so much so that a spray with silicone is needed for smooth operation. All in all makes for a stable stand, one that with care will last. I can see that as the leg joint wears, that will introduce instability, early lubrication will help and the fix is easy: replace with screws and wing nuts. It is also easy to see that in unsympathetic hands, overtightening with bring about an early demise. So, 10/10 value, 8/10 function

The lightbox also makes a good initial impression. The fabric is heavy with a good reflector, stitching appears good quality, double stitching used in places, the bulb holder is ceramic and it comes with a 3A fuse in the plug. I have questions around the quality of the umbrella struts, they appear to be vulnerable, although the central locking ring is two halves screwed together, suggesting that repair might be possible, the lowest quality element thus far appears to be the box cover, which is a white nylon, possibly too light to properly diffuse, time will tell. The CFL looks OK to visual inspection and the light appears to be near the promised output once it has warmed up. (Yes I know I could use a meter) It's a bit mean to mark it down on value, but I feel that if I can see shortcomings they may become evident, so 9/10 value function - have to see how it works

To be continued
 
Indeed, that's why I went for cheap CFL rather than cheap LED, I also have the Sansi 27w LED that might do good service, and those are flicker free. (FTR, Sansi are some of the best quality LED you can lay your hands on)

My bad - I misread the meaning of CFL.
 
Right on cue, that nice man from amazon knocked on my door with the backdrop stand https://smile.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B015OVMMNM

Again, I'm impressed with the value for money. These stands are similar in quality to the Raleno in most respects, but better in that the leg stay joints are all screws, washers and shakeproof nuts. on the negative side, the base spread is similar to the light, which for a 2m stand I think is a little undersized. Cross bar is sturdy enough to take at least medium weight fabric, I think it would start to sag with a heavy velvet, say, but that isn't a typical backdrop fabric. Again a 10/10 faultless for value, 9/10 function. Let's see how it actually works
 
The cheap lights I've bought are these https://smile.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B084P4GFGL/, chosen for various reasons including branding, quality of negative reviews. While not the cheapest, I was even more wary of the cheaper ones, after all a couple of decent CFL can cost £30, it would be interesting to know if the cheaper ones are identical. I've found that even with things made from purest Chinesium, there are quality differences, I was hoping for that here.

First impressions out the box are actually surprisingly good. The stands are ally with reasonable chunks of plastic for the joints. Captive nuts and the plastic thumbscrews for the telescopic section are often a weakness in this kind of kit, if I was scoring this out of 5 with 1 as worst and 5 as best, I'd give this a 2, so better than I was expecting (which was a 1). The leg stays are thin and riveted to hinge on the body and leg, quality of rivet joint looks better than expected with quite a lot of rivet peen over, no washers which would have been good. Quality of fit of the sliding parts is excellent, so much so that a spray with silicone is needed for smooth operation. All in all makes for a stable stand, one that with care will last. I can see that as the leg joint wears, that will introduce instability, early lubrication will help and the fix is easy: replace with screws and wing nuts. It is also easy to see that in unsympathetic hands, overtightening with bring about an early demise. So, 10/10 value, 8/10 function

The lightbox also makes a good initial impression. The fabric is heavy with a good reflector, stitching appears good quality, double stitching used in places, the bulb holder is ceramic and it comes with a 3A fuse in the plug. I have questions around the quality of the umbrella struts, they appear to be vulnerable, although the central locking ring is two halves screwed together, suggesting that repair might be possible, the lowest quality element thus far appears to be the box cover, which is a white nylon, possibly too light to properly diffuse, time will tell. The CFL looks OK to visual inspection and the light appears to be near the promised output once it has warmed up. (Yes I know I could use a meter) It's a bit mean to mark it down on value, but I feel that if I can see shortcomings they may become evident, so 9/10 value function - have to see how it works

To be continued
Not adjustable for power and also quite low power, but certainly a better less bad choice than the LED worklights
 
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Not adjustable for power and also quite low power, but certainly a better less bad choice than the LED worklights
You won't find me arguing with any of that, although if I was nitpicking they can be adjusted for power by masking a proportion of the box face. Not exactly convenient, thobut.
 
I've had good success with work light LED's - please note these links are NSFW

https://purpleport.com/portfolio/chrism8/image/3736000/photographer

https://purpleport.com/portfolio/chrism8/image/3711497/photographer

https://purpleport.com/portfolio/chrism8/image/4973034/photographer

I also did a Band CD cover shot with the equivalent of a 500w halogen LED unit given 500 lumens, the up lights are 5ft LED Plasterers lights
Great pictures:)


I didn’t want to queer the pitch with this …
But any light can be used for photography. However; whilst true that’s also a gross misrepresentation.

you can take interesting portraits using a desk lamp, a work light, a skylight, theatre spots, windows or flash.

However only one of those light sources is capable of mimicking the others.

ie. If you want to take a picture that looks like it was shot by worklights, you can use worklights, but you can’t easily mimic a window light, or a spot.

Whereas, if you buy flash, you have a genuinely adaptable photographic tool.

in the same way, you can take fantastically engaging street photos with a small camera with a fixed 35mm equivalent lens, but you can’t use one for sports, wildlife, Astro etc
 
OK, if I hadn't set myself up for this I wouldn't be posting these for their quality, there's too much wrong with them. Mostly because I was trying to be in two places at once while taking them. But hey, this is the result of plopping down two of my cheap lights and pressing the shutter, there wasn't time to do any tuning whatsover, photos are pretty much straight out the camera. There's enough positive there to know that they will likely do what I was hoping for from them, and I couldn't have done that with room lighting or with my 1.5 flash units.


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The positive is that the kids are cute.

But as for proving the lights will do ‘what you want’, I’d argue you’re sadly mistaken. The photos are far from sharp, you’re suffering from both too low a SS and not enough DoF.

What would have improved both those technical settings? Using flash, for that size of setup I reckon a couple of speedlights in brolly boxes would have been better.
 
OK, if I hadn't set myself up for this I wouldn't be posting these for their quality, there's too much wrong with them.

The photos are far from sharp, you’re suffering from both too low a SS and not enough DoF.

Y'don't say?

What would have improved both those technical settings? Using flash, for that size of setup I reckon a couple of speedlights in brolly boxes would have been better.

Actually, the one thing that would have helped would have been to have has fractionally more time and less pressure. At the same time as taking these I was participating in a work meeting where I was actually one of the main contributors.

The only reason I posted was to demonstrate the quality of the light which, at least for me, appears adequate.
 
Y'don't say?



Actually, the one thing that would have helped would have been to have has fractionally more time and less pressure. At the same time as taking these I was participating in a work meeting where I was actually one of the main contributors.

The only reason I posted was to demonstrate the quality of the light which, at least for me, appears adequate.
But it’s not is it?
It won’t give you enough light to use for portraits, unless you really hike the ISO.

And whilst I’m happy to use astronomical ISO’s to capture interesting ambient lighting for candid shots, if I’m taking control of the lights, why would I hamstring myself? If I’m getting lights out, I want my pictures crisp.

There’s a whole other life lesson in the multi tasking; I’ve some images I really need to process, but even with my laptop set up on the same desk I’m working at, I’ve not got the capacity to process whilst I’m currently really busy at work.
 
But it’s not is it?
It won’t give you enough light to use for portraits, unless you really hike the ISO.

Not sure you're right there. Not about a couple of speedlights in brollys, I'm sure that would be OK,

So, why do I think these lights would be ok if I was using them properly. Those shots were (effectively) f2.8, 1/60, ISO 100 (actually not, but they were overexposed by at least 1 stop - I did say "almost" straight out the camera, exposure was pulled back and a tone curve). I'd want to push that up at least 1.5 stops in shutter speed, f2.8 should give me about half a metre of hyperfocal, so enough to work with if the right spot is in focus as opposed to what is going on with these. That being the case, I'd want sensitivity to be somewhere around 400-1600, which I think is an acceptable range. The quality of the light seems quite good to me, even with the dubious front diffusers. Not disturbingly bright for the kids and pretty even.

An experiment with the Sansi LED bulb would be interesting, or even a light meter if I was going to get radical ;)
 
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On reflection, you are right, but so am I.

Technically, these cheapos leave a lot to be desired and it will always be a challenge using them, and likely to result in a larger number of rejects than using decent kit. But, the equipment itself is only part of the story. Whereas I'm technically proficient in camera usage to know what is wrong with those shots in terms of focus and exposure, I'm not sufficiently experienced in using lights to know what is wrong with the light and how to improve it. Such studio photography I've done in the past has always been with flash with modelling lights, the last time I was in a studio was helping my daughter with her art A level 12 years ago, studio work is not a photography genre that particularly appeals to me. Not just that, but photographing kids - which is after all, what has initiated this whole effort - is a specialist area that needs development to become proficient. Lighting is part of that, but by no means all. In this instance the technical failings are certainly exacerbated by the lower lighting, but I would have cocked it up however good the lights were. Spending a few minutes sorting out the background wouldn have gone amiss, either.

In those shots, for all their faults, I think it would be fair to grade them between "family snapshots" and decent studio shots. As you say, the kids are cute and I think I've made a fair fist of capturing that. The only thing that lifts them out of the snapshot category is the quality of the lighting which appears to me to be pleasantly soft and even. There's a lot I need to do and learn before these lights become a limiting factor.

I'd certainly appreciate any comments on what issues there are with the lighting, I'm sure there are.
 
Specific lighting advice is difficult as it depends on ‘what exactly is it you want to achieve’?

you’ve got Garry’s book, so I’ll try from a slightly different perspective. Stop thinking about ‘even’ or shadowless lighting, it’s the wrong starting point.

The craft of using a camera to create an image is to create a 2d representation of a 3D object. And it’s shadows that create that illusion. So, your lights don’t exist to create the bright points, they’re there to create the shadows.

So… once you’ve decided what you’re wanting to achieve, study the shadows in similar images, which enables you to read the lighting. Then you can recreate it.

However, the other big problem with your low powered lights is that the ambient in the room is acting as ‘fill’. That means that you’re consequently unable to control shadows without shooting in the dark using only your ‘studio lights’.

In short what you’ve bought is a box of frustrations, if you’ve already got speedlights, they are a significantly better starting point.

That’s the reason for the facepalm emoji that someone upset you with earlier.
 
Ham, when you get a mo I'd clone out that stain between the kids as no matter how much I try and ignore it I can't :D

Good luck with the lighting and the forum people and banter! :D
 
I have been reading along and just wanted to say thanks for keeping this thread going and showing us your progress. I have enjoyed it immensely.
Myself, i've been a member of this forum "only forum i'm on" for quite some time and have seen folk get miffed and disapear over the years, which is a shame as it's a great place to learn.

The lighting side of things as taken ages for anything to sink in with me and I still am never sure i'm doing the right thing. So I find it hard to comment on other folks images.

I post up in this section and always get great advice and I eventually get there.

For me the images above "lighting wise " would be fine for that type of image.

Good luck.

Gaz
 
As a grandfather myself, I think your shots are great, and especially the last one. Technically, they are far from perfect but does that really matter to you?

You've made technical errors, not least of which is shooting at just 100 ISO, forcing you to shoot at too large an aperture to create sufficient depth of field and too slow a shutter speed to freeze movement, and even to guarantee the absence of camera shake. But you can try again, at 1600 ISO, which will allow you to shoot at f/8 and 1/125th, which is less prone to error. There is however a risk of flicker at /125th, you'll just have to try it and see.

The only real issue here (as so very eloquently explained by @Phil V ) is your lighting equipment. It's incredible value for money but will drop to bits very quickly. I know the man who made it, he employs hundreds of people, works incredibly hard and is extremely successful, making a tiny profit per unit (most of which goes to Amazon) but his priority is quantity, not quality,

As Phil pointed out, the name of the game is to create the right shadows in the right places, not to avoid the shadows. And, as I pointed out earlier, you don't even need soft lighting when photographing young kids with perfect complexions, soft lighting comes into its own when photographing their elderly relatives:) - which is just as well, because those pathetic softboxes cannot produce even lighting, partly because there is only a single layer of diffusion and partly because the diffusion is wafer-thin and ineffective. Also, the light is pretty much impossible to control because the diffusion is right at the front, it needs to be recessed. You can check the veracity of this statement simply by using your camera meter to check the brightness at the centre and at the edges, it should not vary by more than half a stop (maximum) at any point, but the actual variation will be massive. Or, so that you can let the rest of us see the variation, you could photograph a softbox square-on, exposing for the centre, and post the result here. And of course, the power can't be adjusted either.

At least, you didn't go ahead with your LED worklights, so that's a plus - your poor CFL lights are so much better.

If you really want to persevere with continuous lighting (but please don't) then much better ones are available, such as the Godox SL-60W COB LED Continuous Light, which accepts modifiers, is fully adjustable and has a reasonable CRI. But, continuous lighting is ideal for video, not still images, and flash is better in every way.

Flash has so much more power, but it's an unobtrusive power that your victims will hardly notice at all, because it comes and goes so quickly. That power will allow you to use the aperture of your choice without increasing the ISO, which helps with image quality, and with an effective shutter speed (flash duration) of 1/1000th or thereabouts, subject movement and camera shake become non-issues.

The main thing that you (and untold numbers of other people) need to understand is that good lighting is about creating the right lighting effects for the shot in hand. Many (most?) people seem to think that it's about having sufficient quantity of light to produce correct exposure, and the opposite is true.

So, the starting point is to learn about lighting, decisions about equipment should follow later. I don't know which of my books you have, hopefully it's Lighting Magic, which I believe gives a good introduction. And, when you've outgrown that I recommend Light: Science and Magic, which is at an entirely different level. That's the book that I go to for ideas.
 
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