Upgrading from 20d 18-55

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chris-red

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Hi All, I started out with a Canon 20d and an 18-55mm IS lens. I want upgrade the Camera as I feel the small screen is holding me back to the point where I can't tell what's in focus on it, other than that I am very happy with the camera. I am a novice and have been on a night course at a local college and mostly understand how everything technical works and what to adjust to get certain results. I am often finding however that after a days shooting I see problems with what I have done when I look at the pictures on the computer, especially with depth of field, that had I been able to see this on the screen on the camera I would have been able to sort instantly.

I was thinking of a second hand 40d, they appear to be very similar and looking around I can pick a body up for about £250. What I also notice is that for about £400 I can get a 40d with a 17-85mm lens.

My Questions
Any better option than a 40d? (with Budget in mind)
Is it worth replacing my standard 18-55mm lens with the 17-85usm one?

PS too new to look at the classifieds anyone selling a 40d?:D
 
Sorry but a change in camera won't solve your problem, understanding depth of field will. So what camera settings (i.e. aperture) you using, how the lens effects the depth of field, your choice of a point of focus (and how far way from the lens it is). Understanding the circle of confusion, calculating the depth of field, effected by lens, size of sensor, aperture, focus distance etc There's also a button on the side of the camera which when pressed while looking throught the view finder is a quick way of seeing what's in focus. (just below the flash button and lens release) Read the link, its a very informative website, hope it helps

http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/depth-of-field.htm
 
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pete.rush said:
Sorry but a change in camera won't solve your problem, understanding depth of field will. So what camera settings (i.e. aperture) you using, how the lens effects the depth of field, your choice of a point of focus (and how far way from the lens it is). Understanding the circle of confusion, calculating the depth of field, effected by lens, size of sensor, aperture, focus distance etc There's also a button on the side of the camera which when pressed while looking throught the view finder is a quick way of seeing what's in focus. (just below the flash button and lens release) Read the link, its a very informative website, hope it helps

http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/depth-of-field.htm
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I do understand how it works, with regards to the aperture, I am just short of practical experience, I figure if I can see on the screen how the depth of field looks I can work out what I settings I need easier rather than shooting crap for a day. I have used that button a few times but have never noticed to to effect DoF on the View Finder even when playing with my 50mm 1.8 lens.

Thanks for the link it looks like an interesting website.
 
Okay. I'm gonna be harsh. Don't change your gear. It'll make no difference. Practice more, read more, experiment more. The 20d is a capable camera. Probably way more capable than most of realise. When you KNOW it's holding you back is the time to look elsewhere.

In time, if you stick with photography you'll know I'm right.

(please don't take offence)
 
I used a 20D for over seven years and I too think it's a capable camera.

With digital you can shoot as many shots as you want and they're pretty much free. This should allow you to familiarise yourself with what your kit is capable of at the various aperture and focal length settings available at very little cost. I think you should take advantage of this pretty much free shooting and shoot off a lot of pictures at different settings and view them on your pc and try and improve your technique to get the results that you want.

Yes, the rear screen is pretty poor and I'd really only recommend that you use it to roughly check your composition after shooting. It's really no good for checking sharpness although you should be able to get a pretty good sense of DoF. On the subject of DoF, one thing to keep in mind and use when appropriate is the DoF preview button.

If I had the kit that you have I'd keep the camera, unless wanting to use live view or shoot video, and possibly look at replacing the 18-55mm with a quality 17-50mm f2.8 or adding a 30mm f1.4 or 50mm f1.4 or possibly a macro to your lens collection.
 
Hi Chris, I also have a 20D and think it's a great camera. Are you aware that when you have an image on the LCD that you can zoom in and out using the 2 buttons at the top right, back of the camera where your right hand thumb would rest when holding the camera.

Here's a picture I took recently when I was wanting a shallow depth of field. I was able to zoom in on the LCD to check my focus was pretty good and where I wanted it.

Irish%20800%20web.jpg


You also mention that you have an f1.8 lens, that would be a great lens for you to play about with as you can open it up to get a shallow DOF the same as my pic. Switch your dial to Av and select f1.8 on the top LCD for a similar effect I have. If you want more in focus you could choose maybe something like f10 but you need to be careful to keep an eye on your shutter speed and may have to bump the ISO up a notch so that your shutter speed isn't too slow if your hand holding the camera.

Hope that sort of helps a bit but as someone said the 20D is very capable and a great camera to learn the ropes on.
 
chris-red said:
I do understand how it works, with regards to the aperture, I am just short of practical experience, I figure if I can see on the screen how the depth of field looks I can work out what I settings I need easier rather than shooting crap for a day. I have used that button a few times but have never noticed to to effect DoF on the View Finder even when playing with my 50mm 1.8 lens.

Thanks for the link it looks like an interesting website.
Click to expand...

You said it yourself....
I am just short of practical experience
Click to expand...

A new camera won't solve this, take pictures will and the DoF button on the 20D does work very well. Probably the most important thing is what you are focusing on, especially if its landscapes, focus on the right thing and that will significantly improve your images.
 
I understand that I need more experience and that taking pictures is free with digital, however I don't get time to go shooting often enough which I suppose is why I was fed up after spending a day shooting with a very low hit rate. I know I am nowhere near the limits of the camera, I just figured that having the bigger screen might help improve me faster.

The F1.8 lens wide open was my problem, I was taking pictures of my cyclists in the Olympic Road Cycling so I figured set a wide aperture and a high shutter speed to catch the action without blur. Most of the time the part in focus was obscure and everything else was blurry. As it was shady I was getting good expose at about 1/640 1/1000 on the screen the photos looked good. Once I got home I realised, I hadn't considered the depth of field and most of my photos where *****. Had I seen the depth of field more clearly on the screen I wouldn't have wasted my day and upped the ISO and probably changed back to my Kit lens. While I obviously learnt a lesson I feel I could have learnt that lesson in about 5 minutes with a better screen. Do you reckon I would have been able to clearly see the Depth of Field on 40d screen If this isn't the case I'll stick with it or maybe start taking my laptop out with me.
 
You won't see it any clearer than using the DoF button through the viewfinder. While the screen is larger on 40D it is still pretty small.

The fact is you have now learnt that 1.8 is too extreme for a lot of things and the DoF is so narrow that it is easy to screw up.
Try some shots outside your house at different apertures to see what would have suited so you don't have to waste a day out.

Saying that, the part in focus shouldn't have been obscure so you must have been doing something else to cause that. Were you panning?
 
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It almost sounds like you have some spare cash and want justification for buying a new toy. If so, be honest and say you want one because you just do.
Personally I would suggest you spend the cash on lenses.
The only issue I ever had with my 20 was noise issues at high iso and that was rare.
 
chris-red said:
The F1.8 lens wide open was my problem, I was taking pictures of my cyclists in the Olympic Road Cycling so I figured set a wide aperture and a high shutter speed to catch the action without blur. Most of the time the part in focus was obscure and everything else was blurry. As it was shady I was getting good expose at about 1/640 1/1000 on the screen the photos looked good. Once I got home I realised, I hadn't considered the depth of field and most of my photos where *****. Had I seen the depth of field more clearly on the screen I wouldn't have wasted my day and upped the ISO and probably changed back to my Kit lens. While I obviously learnt a lesson I feel I could have learnt that lesson in about 5 minutes with a better screen. Do you reckon I would have been able to clearly see the Depth of Field on 40d screen If this isn't the case I'll stick with it or maybe start taking my laptop out with me.
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To take action shots you want a reasonable shutter speed, which you were using, but a smaller aperture.

f1.8 large aperture lots of light getting in, fast shutter speeds, very shallow depth of field, i.e. a very small proportion of the image in focus. What you should have done is set a smaller aperture ideal range of most lenses f6.3-9 that's your ideal working range, large depth of field (i.e. more of the image in focus) and a shutter speed to match.

Probably the best thing to do is to start with AV priority, set your aperture, as I stated you want to work in the range f6.3-f9 and let the camera set the shutter. If the lights good enough, you should get a reasonable shutter, if not increase your ISO (sensitivity of the sensor to light) from say 100 - 200 or 400 and see what shutter speeds you get, or use TV priority and set the shutter speed you want and see what the camera gives you as an aperture. For action photography forget manual, why complicate things, allow the camera to do some of the work for you. Or you could for a few shots use the auto modes to see what the camera would use as settings, i.e. set it on sports mode, then use your program modes to adjust your settings to how you want.

Hope this helps.

summaries f1.8 shallow depth of field (i.e not a lot of image in terms of depth in focus), f9 larger depth of field (more of the image in focus). Light conditions play a significant role in what settings you can achieve, but don't be afraid to increase the ISO
 
ernesto said:
You won't see it any clearer than using the DoF button through the viewfinder. While the screen is larger on 40D it is still pretty small.

The fact is you have now learnt that 1.8 is too extreme for a lot of things and the DoF is so narrow that it is easy to screw up.
Try some shots outside your house at different apertures to see what would have suited so you don't have to waste a day out.

Saying that, the part in focus shouldn't have been obscure so you must have been doing something else to cause that. Were you panning?
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I wasn't panning, I was getting shots front of them as I was close to them (could reach out and touch them!) As they where going past so fast I didn't feel I had time to get a decent lock with the focus too so often I would be locked onto the background, however I'm under no illusions this was me and not the camera! I did try changing the AF points but it didn't seem to affect it. Just practice practice practice I think, I'm getting frustrated with a lot of my photos being ****, but ! do feel like I'm learning!

I bow to superior wisdom though I will persevere with the 20D, Thanks for the advice :thumbs:
 
You did set yourself a challenge by the sound of it! Cyclists coming towards/going past you a few metres away at 30mph is never going to be easy for you or the camera.

Maybe some close up sports shooters can offer some advice for you.
 
ernesto said:
You did set yourself a challenge by the sound of it! Cyclists coming towards/going past you a few metres away at 30mph is never going to be easy for you or the camera.

Maybe some close up sports shooters can offer some advice for you.
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Set camera to AV priority, say aperture of f8, use AI SERVO, camera will set shutter speed, check to see if reasonable shutter speed can be seen in view finder view, increase ISO setting if you think shutter speed too low, ISO400 will still give you great shots, focus on the subject as it approaches, when subject starts to fill frame start taking a couple of images, avoid a burst (machine gun) 2-3 shots will work just as well, easy as that with a bit of practice
 
Just to counter the slim DoF argument against using wide apertures...

If you're close to your subject you get shallow DoF at wide apertures but I think what some are forgetting is that DoF increases with distance. With APS-C and 50mm at f1.4 and 40ft you get 10ft of DoF, at 50 it'll be about 20ft, at 75ft it'll be about 40ft and gets deeper still as the distance increases still further. So really, it all depends upon camera to subject distance.
 
Well in this case it sound like the cyclists were literally a couple of feet away which is going to be problematic at 1.8.
 
And in that case a 50mm lens on APS-C will get you a great shot of someones nose.
 
Well, I think it illustrates that there's a right focal length, aperture and shutter speed for the shot.
 
ernesto said:
Well in this case it sound like the cyclists were literally a couple of feet away which is going to be problematic at 1.8.
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I wasn't taking pictures of them as they were going past as they would be too fast, probably even for a professional, when you are feet (even inches at some points) away from they and they go past at 30+mph it would be impossible to get a shot, I was taking pictures as they approached, I'll post some of the better ones later.

If I was in that situation again (and I hadn't of read the advice here) I would probably use my Kit lens and up the ISO (started on 100 then went to 200) to 400 or 800 then play about with the shutter speed between 640-1250.

I think next time I should vary my settings more.

Thanks for the advice.

:thumbs:
 
Well done.

You could possibly boost the exposure a little. This may be too much but you can do what you want to taste or maybe you prefer the original.

IMG_151611.jpg
 
Don't know if you could have stood somewhere else but could have possibly found a better lit spot to stand in as the dappled light through the trees is not making it any easier.
 
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