Unpaid work

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petemc

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Pete
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A UK based magazine is looking to get me to do some work for them. They can't afford to pay for the images, but they can afford to pay expenses. Its only a cheap magazine, £3-4. I'm tempted to agree to do the job. It would be nice to see my work in print, nice to know its all around the country. Its just with reading more about professional photography, going to seminars and things everyone always reminds me that I shouldn't be giving away my images. I have one client who always wants things for free and I keep telling him that he has to pay. I kind of feel like I would be going back on my principles taking this job. But then its a feather in my cap.... What do you guys think?

I appreciate all your help in the past few months with clients and pricing. I would tell this person that I can't let my images go for free but it does seem like quite a nice feather in my cap.
 
The choice is entirely yours, but remember its good to get experience and exposure of your work, however that can be negative if that exposure is of someone who will always do the job on the cheap, or as a freebie. Alot of people may see your work and think excellent, but if they also know that you did it for cheap they will definately not be intending to pay big bucks.

£3 to £4 for a magazine = cheap? sounds about the norm to me, most decent magazines sell for that price or less, atleast computer and camera mags that I buy. Also if they sell nationwide its circulation shouldnt be that small.

Sorry for sounding negative - but seriously dont sell yourself short, its easy for people to plead poverty when they have to pay for something, on the other hand thats their problem not yours - so long as the quality of your work is good:thumb:

Suppose what Im saying is alot of feathers is all good and well, but they aint going to feed you or pay the rent.
 
Ha yer I dunno why I thought £3-4 was cheap. I buy lots of magazines too at that price. You're exactly right. This is why I was hoping to get some opinions. I'm sure if I say no then they'll find someone else, some student who will do it for cheap.
 
Personaly, I'd do it. It's good exposure. But with the caveat that you'll do it for the exposure this time but in future they have to pay the going rate. If you can ensure that you get credited for each shot you may pick up a lot of work off the back of it. Ultimately, the way I would look at it is that it's free advertising.

Having said that though, the going rate is around 2-300 ish per shot for a full page. Depending on usage, so you could be giving up quite a bit of cash.

I guess it depends on the circulation too.

Just some thoughts to add to the mix!
 
Mate, there are other ways to get paid rather than just cash. As long as you are getting something out of it and everything is agreed before hand (i.e. just this once) they why not.

I would insist on decent exposure on the photos i.e. Words by X, photos by PeteMC, then at the corner of each photo your website address.

You've just got free advertising then.
 
Gandhi said:
Having said that though, the going rate is around 2-300 ish per shot for a full page. Depending on usage, so you could be giving up quite a bit of cash.

I guess it depends on the circulation too.

Just some thoughts to add to the mix!
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Its only a pocket book really. A small travel guide for 18-35yr olds for the major cities in the UK. Its meant to be quite popular. In 2001 it sold over 400,000 copies and all first year students get it free. No word on it since 2001 so who knows :)
 
hi pete
i read a very similar story on another forum, but instead of getting exposure, they just didn't bother with him at all.
Get yourself known first mate, cash can come later.
 
Boon said:
hi pete
i read a very similar story on another forum, but instead of getting exposure, they just didn't bother with him at all.
Get yourself known first mate, cash can come later.
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The only problem is I could become known for being cheap. Its already happened with one client. I totally under-charged for one job and then when he wanted it doing again I quoted realistically and he said to get lost.
 
But if its your main income then unfortunately it has to come first! lol
:D
 
Pete,
The only thing I would add is to try ensure the rights to use the photos in other ways (inc. sell to others) remain yours if possible. Also that they (the magazine) do not then have the ownership of the images and subsequently sell them on themselves.
Hope it goes well for you.
Rich
 
400,000 sold at £3-4 doesn't sound like they can't afford you. Either insist on paying, or what about a 1 page Ad for your Company/website in lieu of payment ?

Start playing them at the same game....you can't afford to work for nothing....what can they offer in return ? Come on man....barter barter barter ;)
 
petemc said:
They can't afford to pay for the images,
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If they can't afford to pay for a few images how on earth are they going to be able to pay for printing 400,000 copies. And, if the circulation is predominantly students, being realistic, how much value is any potential advertising really worth to you??
 
dod said:
And, if the circulation is predominantly students, being realistic, how much value is any potential advertising really worth to you??
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Ah but todays student could be tomorrows bigshot ;) Speculate to accumulate as they say
 
I've done the same with Motard Mag, gave articles and images with the intention that when the mag was up and running I'd either have a job and/or get paid well for my images.

At the moment the mag is on hold as the publisher is very ill and nothing is being done. I've got 6 magazine with my images in, my portfolio looks good, but it's not done anything for me to go full time sports tog.

I failed to sort an advert out. You want at least 1/2 page advert for free, plus your name/web/address/phone where the editors credentials go.

Payment is no ones business but you're own, no clients need to know, most won't unless stumble across postings here!

Crack on but make sure you're back is scratched ;)

Carl.
 
Pete, I will be blunt. You are a good photographer but you are no good at business. If you are going to make it in the photography world you are going to have to charge for you work and wise up.

Sorry if this not what you wanted to read but it really is that simple!!
 
DJW said:
Ah but todays student could be tomorrows bigshot ;) Speculate to accumulate as they say
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Could, might, possibly, none of that feeds Pete today. And in ten years time when he/she (the student) is eventually in a position to commission him the chances of finding the book are at best slim.
 
I agree with those that are of the mind that as long as you are getting something back, then it may be worth your while.

Steve has a point, it doesn't necessarily make business sense to do something for free. But I'm of the mind that payment doesn't always have to come in cold hard cash. If it's a way of you getting a string to your bow, and added to your 'portfolio' as it were, then that's a good thing. Like Carl says, you could push for at least some ad space.

The only downside to this is that as you say, you become known for being cheap. Fine, just make sure it comes with non disclosure. If you do this as a freebie, then why should everyone have to know?

:)
 
Steve said:
Pete, I will be blunt. You are a good photographer but you are no good at business. If you are going to make it in the photography world you are going to have to charge for you work and wise up.

Sorry if this not what you wanted to read but it really is that simple!!
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Don't worry mate, I am :) I've told plenty of people in the past few weeks that I can't give away my work. I never applied to them thinking of giving my work away, I was hoping they were going to pay. I haven't accepted anything. My initial response was "Nuts, no money no shots". I was hoping someone might say I was being silly to pass up the oppourtinity. I'll see if I can get some ad space.

According to their site people like Fatboy Slim and Jamie Oliver read or read it and there was 100,000 given away with the Independant. Apparently it can be found at: Virgin, Borders, Waterstone's, HMV, Blackwells, Safeways and Amazon. I'm not trying to defend them at all, I'm just hoping someone says to go for it. However I do feel that they're just after students who will go "ooh fame!"
 
Do it in exchange for a full-page ad next to the images you put in. Gen up a nice full-page ad for yourself and insist it goes in the next 12 months issues.
 
My only suggestion is to pick up a copy of the book/mag and get in contact with a photographer they have used before to see if they have paid previously, they could be trying it on, I would!

If there is adverts in the Mag, there is money for your services.
 
Im no photographer, Im a nailartist ... Im only just stepping into your world.
Last year I used some nail art products imported by a woman who was just setting up an online shop. I took snaps of my work & sent the pics to her in the hope she'd use them in her gallery. She did & I was chuffed to see my work displayed, I never thought about money at the time, just the exposure.
A few months down the line she contacted me & asked if Id like to take some more pics with her new stock this time for a magazine ad... and she offered to pay.
This was a one-woman business at this time but still she payed me ... and she has continued to use me & pay me well ever since.
Im now quite known within my own industry, my pics advertise her products on a monthly basis in our industry mags, (yes you can get mags just about nails, lol!) my work adorns her stand at Excel, NEC, Olympia etc. and she uses me exclusively when the mags run product features. (Hence Im now more interested to learn more about photography)
Your situation is a little different I know but, the exopsure has worked for me within my industry, only you can decide how much you want to do it, how much it will help your portfolio or hurt your reputation.
Good luck.
 
I totally appreciate that good things could come of it, but also bad things. "Oh this guy, yer he did it for free." Every pro I've met in the past few months has backed up the fact that I shouldn't be giving away my images and I'm not now. I'm going to email them back and ask about the ad.
 
Liberalis said:
My only suggestion is to pick up a copy of the book/mag and get in contact with a photographer they have used before to see if they have paid previously, they could be trying it on, I would!

If there is adverts in the Mag, there is money for your services.
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Actually on that note I did find this. Some pro photographer with a rather nice client list including the company I'm talking with now.
 
It seems to be a double edged sword dosn't it, you don't want to sell yourself short but then who's going to pay you the proper money if your not known...

...If it were me, well I wouldn't do it for nothing (that's for people who just want their ego stroked IMO) but the idea put forward of pictures provided in exchange for advertising (on the pics themselves and a page/half page ad) sounds pretty good to me, I would also add in that you keep the rights to the photos used.

As you have read everyone has their own stance on things, mine is that quality will allways sell, but if nobody knows about your work nobody will come to you for it... this seems like a good oppertunity to get your work (and just as importantly your name) shown to a wider audience.

All just my opinion of course :) Hope it all goes well whatever way you decide to go.
 
The only reason you want to get known with magazinses is so they call you again. Bite your lip and say no. The problem here is encourages the downward trend of magazines trying to get work for nothing. If they get away with you, tey'll try it on the next person, making it harder and harder for professionals to make a living out out photography.
 
There seems to be a tendency by the magazine publishers to play on talented photographers' desire to get published.
They must actually spend time trawling personal galleries looking for top quality images they can get on the cheap.

You have tons of talent and deserve to be paid for your skills and investment in equipment.

I would at the very least want recognition and free advertising in exchange for my work.
If they want them for no return whatsoever I would play them at their own game and see what you can screw out of them.
 
Hmmm... DO be careful, or, like previously stated, you will be asked again and again to do them free.
My sons play for a mens cricket club and us ladies/wives/mums decided to make some money for the new pavilion by making a Tealadies Revealed calendar for 2006. It was all done in secret and i took all the photos (and starred in it..Miss February!) we made £1,500 for the club.

Yesterday a friend said that her son is going to S.Africa on a school rugby tour next year and they have to raise money and they decided to have a calendar of the sports masters/mistresses etc. SOmeone suggested that they should ask me to do the photos as my other calendar was so good.
I cant refuse as my 2 sons go to the school (although not involved with rugby) so I have agreed.

But the moral of this story is,,,,,, once seen as cheap,, the tag goes with you!!
(photography-wise that is!!) ;)
 
Totally agree, last year i was asked if i could do a wedding fayre shoot for a dress designer free, and it would be a good chance to gain portfolio shots, i said yes and did it. She asked me to do some more a couple of months later and i said that i would have to charge this time (i covered print costs the lot last time), im sure she is still running yet. Incidently my images were used in the sun and daily record suppliments to showcase her shop, and not a thing mentioned about the photographer.
 
I emailed them back about the ad space. They have emailed me an IP form with this in it.

You hereby assign to us, with full title guarantee, all your property, right, title and interest throughout the world in the Works, including copyright and other intellectual property rights in the Works as used by us in the Books, on the Website, in the Magazine and/or any other media as may be used by us in future.
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I'm thinking that sounds like a bad thing. They say photographers retain their copyright and yet that seems to say differently.
 
Hmmm, so they want you to do the work, not pay anything for it and then own ALL the rights.

Doesn't sound great to me either.
 
Indeed. They said they have no adversing space. Oh well. Would have been nice if I was at uni or if I didn't need the money. /me keeps at it :)
 
they're taking the mickey Pete.
 
Yeah they're just trying it on mate. Walk away. You've stated your terms. Stick to them.

You want advertising space as payment, and you certainly don't transfer your rights to them at all. You give them rights to use this particular shot(s), in its entirety and without being edited beyond that is reasonably required for publication, and to use it(them) once....this time and this time only.
 
petemc said:
I emailed them back about the ad space. They have emailed me an IP form with this in it.

I'm thinking that sounds like a bad thing. They say photographers retain their copyright and yet that seems to say differently.
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pete, write back, say 'ahhh sorry, didn't realise it was a joke'

That's just not on. C'mon, name and shame, for the benefit of our profession.
 
i agree with the above Pete, they are taking the rise mate, dont entertain it!
 
Matty said:
i agree with the above Pete, they are taking the rise mate, dont entertain it!
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Heh heh! I can't help but hear Earl's voice now for your posts Matty! :D
 
Basically as all have said - they are either really stupid, or they are hoping you are.

Definately would have thought it was a windup had I not followed this from your first post.

If I was you I'd finish it now - just email them and say its not worth your time, and you are not interested "giving" away your work with no payment, despite giving them various alternatives either through payment, or providing some sort of service (i.e. advertising or other promotion of your services).
 
Yer theres no way I'm doing this. Its such a joke. Ah well. At least this thread will be helpful to others :)
 
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