Unanswered threads.

[ZoneV]

Like David said - difficult and not necessarily relevant.

If I were to have a go at water drops or still life, I would expect to be critiqued as a novice, whereas if I posted paid wedding or portrait work, I'd expect to be treated as a Pro.

Which leaves the introduction from the OP as critical in the process. And unfortunately, some people like to post as few words as possible (before getting angry that others misunderstood them).

Fair point. Perhaps something could be done (some scripting perhaps) to add a thread-specific "experience level" scale/field for the poster to populate when creating a new thread in any of the crit sections?

It's not something I suffer from

No ****, Sherlock!

 

[JohnN]

If I were to have a go at water drops or still life, I would expect to be critiqued as a novice, whereas if I posted paid wedding or portrait work, I'd expect to be treated as a Pro.

Good point, not being a pro in any field and a generalist anyway I hadn't considered that

 

[Pookeyhead]

Fair point. Perhaps something could be done (some scripting perhaps) to add an "experience level" scale/field

Who decides the criteria that determines this experience level?

 

[ZoneV]

Who decides the criteria that determines this experience level?

The poster. It's only a guide and doesn't have to be too precise, just so no year 7 pupils get A-level feedback (so to speak), and vice-versa.

 

[Ed Sutton]

How do you define 'experience'?

 

[ZoneV]

How do you define 'experience'?

How confident a person feels in a particular genre would be a good indicator. Like Phil said earlier, weddings and portraits are his thing, waterdrops are not.

 

[JohnN]

No... I'm not. The OP will clearly be delighted if everyone said "That's nice". What I'm saying is that posting "That's nice" when there are clearly some issues with the image is harmful. I'm also talking about the people who take offence at critical feedback ad accuse you of being negative (not the OP). That's a harmful attitude too.

Oh, I see what you meant - yes I fully agree poor or just plain wrong advice can be harmful (something that to a lesser degree has happened to me), but I also think that posting up your best work and have it ignored because no-one can find fault if demoralising too.

it's interesting/helpful to know if someone likes your work.
TBH I've seen what some say is excellent technical work posted here but it means nothing to me and I will never like it or enjoy looking at it whereas some newbie comes along and posts something I really enjoy looking at and I am happy to tell them that I like it and hopefully what it is that I like.
There is never a need to crush someone with thoughtless comments (well apart from boosting your own ego) but a comment or two that offers helpful advice/observation is generally always welcome - if it isn't move on and make a not not to bother wit that person again but that doesn't need getting the hump and never commenting on anyone's pics.

Agreed, being spiteful never helps anyone (the person delivering it too I suspect)

 

[Pookeyhead]

Exactly... it's a bit wooly.

I believe we're trying to fix something that doesn't really need fixing anyway. The feedback forums are hugely populated and probably the most visited and read forums with the most active threads.

Personally... I don't see what the problem is. So there are some posts with no responses... you can't win them all.

 

[ZoneV]

Exactly... it's a bit wooly.

A bit wooly is good enough.

 

[JohnN]

Just to break from the debate for a moment and go back to the ops suggestion.

I tried doing as he said and posting on a couple of threads without comment, offering a little crit and the floodgates did indeed open

 

[Phil V]

Exactly... it's a bit wooly.

I believe we're trying to fix something that doesn't really need fixing anyway. The feedback forums are hugely populated and probably the most visited and read forums with the most active threads.

Personally... I don't see what the problem is. So there are some posts with no responses... you can't win them all.

This kind of sums it up though!

The threads with few comments are in the minority - we're really discussing the last 1 percent towards making the feedback 100% - when really the more serious issue is the role of critique in general, and bad critique in particular (which is what most of the thread has focussed on) because useful critique is far from the usual standard.

I don't see critique as my forte no matter how we dress it up, and when invited to critique I'll often give 'general' pointers, which IMO are much more useful in the grand scheme of things, but I suppose are less useful to people who want to be spoonfed 'instructions'.

But the whole 'instruction' thing has got me in bother in the past too. Because lots of people can't see why ISO settings and shutter speeds aren't really that relevant per se.

 

[ZoneV]

You're looking at this through the eyes of an experienced photographer and long standing forum member though Phil.

Offering crit is far more daunting for a newcomer and perhaps they would be more inclined to do so if they could identify with others of a similar experience level to themselves.

 

[chivers67]

I was trying to capture all negative responses. but yes i have seen some people be a little harsh to others on here.
The classic is when asking for tips on Wedding photography and some members jump down their throats.
Some members twine that they dont want to leave negative feedback for fear of reprisal.
The ranking allows you to tear shreds off someone if they say they ar a pro wedding photographer and they post something like this:

but if someone was just at a friends wedding and posted this you could gently point out the obvious error.

i'd hope they could perhaps spot it themselves! So annoying when this happens at weddings.

I've said it before, a like button would do wonders for some posts. i don't always feel obliged to post something about a photograph but if no one else has if a picture warrants it i often do especially for a newbie.

I know photography is pretty personal but sometimes i see people post things like "wonderful shot " love it" etc for a picture that looks without being rude average which can be just as bad as not posting at all?

 

[big soft moose]

IMO the state of this thread indicates what's going wrong with TP

Either help people out by giving crit on their otherwise unanswered posts (as the OP requested and Marcel endorsed) or don't as you prefer - but surely its not necessary to have a flipping 4 page argument about whether the Op was right to make the suggestion :bang:

 

[ZoneV]

It's a pity we don't hear the opinions of newer members on threads like this - only two posts (including the OP) in this entire thread (95 posts so far) were made by someone with less than 1000 posts! (And they aren't "new" by any means).

 

[gramps]

You surely understand why most newbies wouldn't post in this thread?

 

[ZoneV]

You surely understand why most newbies wouldn't post in this thread?

Go on, Gramps. Enlighten me.

 

[big soft moose]

:bang: because of the tone of some of the replies , particulary the criticism directed at the OP would be my guess

why would any newbie put their head over the parapet when a perfectly reasonable post provokes that kind of response ?

 

[ZoneV]

:bang: because of the tone of some of the replies , particulary the criticism directed at the OP would be my guess

why would any newbie put their head over the parapet when a perfectly reasonable post provokes that kind of response ?

Exactly!

I was a bit off with my counting btw but the point remains, and it's interesting to note the opinion of the most junior (in terms of posts) contributor to this thread (post #17, first page).

It's not good. :shake:

 

[JohnN]

I've said it before, a like button would do wonders for some posts. i don't always feel obliged to post something about a photograph but if no one else has if a picture warrants it i often do especially for a newbie.

Have you posted this in the forums thread?
I know its possible using vBulletin and would allow basic feedback.

Exactly!

I was a bit off with my counting btw but the point remains, and it's interesting to note the opinion of the most junior (in terms of posts) contributor to this thread (post #17, first page).

It's not good. :shake:

It is indeed

 

[big soft moose]

Its been suggested about 9 times before - the response from the powers that be is always No - as they would prefer people to respond to feedback and critique threads with words rather than clicking a button

 

[JohnN]

I sort of get that, but its an addition, not a replacement.

If you want to say something you still will, but if you're just cruising though without anything to say but like it nonetheless you can say so without any real effort of for that matter subscribing (and yes I know you can untick subscribe)

 

[ZoneV]

It is indeed

The problem: how to engage the newer members, especially in crit sections, whilst ensuring their contributions don't get smothered by the, how shall I put it, "stronger willed" members.

 

[big soft moose]

The problem: how to engage the newer members, especially in crit sections, whilst ensuring their contributions don't get smothered by the, how shall I put it, "stronger willed" members.

we could start by ensuring their photos receive decent, honest and constructive crit - then they'll be more likely to respond in kind - which is pretty much where we started with this thread

 

[JohnN]

The problem: how to engage the newer members, especially in crit sections, whilst ensuring their contributions don't get smothered by the, how shall I put it, "stronger willed" members.

lol, tactically put.

I've been on here for years and get browbeaten by the as you put it "stronger willed" members, so god knows how a newbie would handle it.

Anyway one thing I've learnt over the years is that just because someone won an argument doesn't mean they're right.

we could start by ensuring their photos receive decent, honest and constructive crit - then they'll be more likely to respond in kind - which is pretty much where we started with this thread

Sadly this would need a massive amount of policing - and mods despite their experience have bad days too and would not doubt start umpteen rows and accusations of censorship.

 

[tingting44]

wow this has got a tad out of hand lol im on the 2nd page and i cant go any further, my eyes are glazing over lol, thanks op ill try to comment more just from this thread, so its worked for me, good on ya

all the best

Martin

 

[big soft moose]

Sadly this would need a massive amount of policing - and mods despite their experience have bad days too and would not doubt start umpteen rows and accusations of censorship.

not really - all it requires is for some of the established members to go out and give decent, honest, and constructive crit on some posts (including but not limited to the UAPs)

 

[ZoneV]

not really - all it requires is for some of the established members to go out and give decent, honest, and constructive crit on some posts (including but not limited to the UAPs)

I think it would be better to encourage the less established members to get involved more. It's fairer (on the relatively few established members), more sustainable and better for forum growth and diversity (cue breakdancing ).

 

[JohnN]

Hmn.. so how could this best be achieved?

One option (were there a plugin available or if this forums dev team have enough experience to mod it themselves) would be to use a variation on the experience level indicator above - something like this:

1) Per Photo forum - an individual level indicator, this way you could be starter at wildlife but pro on weddings (for example - ta Phil)
2) Add a critique flag to the post (not just the thread subject) - enabled by default but can be disabled to allow non-critique feedback
3) Only allow members of an equal or higher level to post as a critique.

This could reflect variable subject experience, flag specific critiques and make people think before saying "thats rubbish".

Coupled with a like button that could be a really powerful tool.

 

[Gr8Shot]

Hmn.. so how could this best be achieved?

One option (were there a plugin available or if this forums dev team have enough experience to mod it themselves) would be to use a variation on the experience level indicator above - something like this:

1) Per Photo forum - an individual level indicator, this way you could be starter at wildlife but pro on weddings (for example - ta Phil)
2) Add a critique flag to the post (not just the thread subject) - enabled by default but can be disabled to allow non-critique feedback
3) Only allow members of an equal or higher level to post as a critique.

This could reflect variable subject experience, flag specific critiques and make people think before saying "thats rubbish".

Coupled with a like button that could be a really powerful tool.

Just add a flux capacitor and you've got a time machine........

Sorry couldn't resist

 

[JohnN]

I don't think the forum goes at 88 mph - well with the exception of this thread

 

[big soft moose]

I think it would be better to encourage the less established members to get involved more. It's fairer (on the relatively few established members), more sustainable and better for forum growth and diversity (cue breakdancing ).

Indeed - I agree , but the best way to encourage them to get involved is for the more established to lead by example ... if each person on this thread had spent the time instead answering one UAP - that would have significantly reduced the number of UAP , and removed the burden from alfie , who seems to be doing battle with the UAP list single handedly somedays

 

[Gr8Shot]

pete
i try daily to offer advise or sometimes just to say if i like it or not. My advise is purely my opinion and i try to state that everytime.
i have to admit that some are soooo bad i cant comment either way and others i have no pinion on.
but if i look and feel something i always comment.

 

[big soft moose]

pete
i try daily to offer advise or sometimes just to say if i like it or not. My advise is purely my opinion and i try to state that everytime.
i have to admit that some are soooo bad i cant comment either way and others i have no pinion on.
but if i look and feel something i always comment.

i don't doubt it - as do some other in this thread (myself included) , but the OPs intention was i think to engage more people in that pursuit - its a shame that it somehow became a long running argument about whether answering the UAP is desirable in the first place

 

[posiview]

Edit all you want.. the fact is, when a debate crops up, and that's all this is... it's not an "argument"... everyone is being civil.. it's a debate.... someone feels the need to say "Different thread... same names".

So what's wrong with having people who question things and enjoying debate. If you don't like it, what exactly is the point of taking part in the thread just to make snide comments about "the same names"?

Seems like a troll comment to me.

No... I'm not. The OP will clearly be delighted if everyone said "That's nice". What I'm saying is that posting "That's nice" when there are clearly some issues with the image is harmful. I'm also talking about the people who take offence at critical feedback ad accuse you of being negative (not the OP). That's a harmful attitude too.

"Everyone is being civil", why do mods have to reign most of these thread in then?

"Seems like a troll comment to me", my original statement was based on fact.

"The OP will clearly be delighted if everyone said "That's nice""' how do you know that?

The OP was asking members to give feedback. It was a harmless request which you jumped on to pontificate.

 

[Pookeyhead]

IMO the state of this thread indicates what's going wrong with TP

Either help people out by giving crit on their otherwise unanswered posts (as the OP requested and Marcel endorsed) or don't as you prefer - but surely its not necessary to have a flipping 4 page argument about whether the Op was right to make the suggestion :bang:

But we've gone beyond whether he was right or wrong, and are now looking at how these "fixes" would in practice work. It's a debate... what's wrong with it? For the record, I could just as easily say that what's wrong with this forum is too many people complaining about threads where matters are debated fully and critically. If you don't agree or see the value in it, just don't take part in it at all. It's a massive forum and there is something here for everyone. You can't have it all your own way, or have everything exactly as you like it. There are lots of threads in here that I don't agree with, find much interest in or feel are pointless. I just stay out of them... I don't go in and tell people they are wrong.

 

[Solo man]

3) Only allow members of an equal or higher level to post as a critique.

This could reflect variable subject experience, flag specific critiques and make people think before saying "thats rubbish".

.

How would that work?.
An example...
I know that a comment was brought up by a member on a bird thread, and directed at another member(who is not into birds, but has tons of experience)that if you aren't into bird photography, then why are you offering any feedback on a bird thread...
The fact that some people aren't 'into' some things doesn't mean they have no worthwhile opinion.
Anyone has the right to offer critique, or not, as they see fit... opinions are as subjective as the images on display...
As a beginner I don't always feel I'm in a position to offer critique, but, I know what I like...so sometimes I offer feedback/ critique, and sometimes I just can't be arsed... it's no big deal in the grand scheme of things :shrug:

 

[Pookeyhead]

"Everyone is being civil", why do mods have to reign most of these thread in then?

I can't see anything in here that would warrant moderator intervention.


You're talking abut the more volatile threads in the equipment sections where people tend to lose objectivity, and any discussion about art where all the "it's all a load of [PLEASE DON'T TRY TO BYPASS THE SWEAR FILTER]" trolls come out to play instead of having a reasonable discussion.

I can see nothing in here that's a cause for concern... unless you plan on instigating it by accusing us of trouble making when we're ion fact just having a debate.

There's an awful lot of "I don't like this.. so I'm going to put a stop to it" mentality sometimes. If you don't like what you see here.... jog on. Simple really.

 

[modchild]

The main problem, as I see it, with giving crit is that not everyone likes the same thing and not everyone likes to follow the 'rules' of photography. I posted a few shots in the bird forum the other day and I'd cropped them with PSE using the grid and the crops had the subject on the rule of thirds lines. The first 2 people both said they didn't like the crop while the 3rd said they liked the photo. The first 2 posters had many posts and the 3rd had hardly any posts.

What someone likes, someone else dislikes, so who do you believe. I did re-edits of the shots and TBH I'm not sure which edits I prefer, but the fact that I did get some posts was helpful and got me thinking of other ways to achieve the shots I got. Main thing is not to get too disheartened by the crit, most of the time it's good, and keep trying to improve whatever.

I'll still try to offer help to anyone, even more so if there's no replies already, but if I can't offer any constructive help then I'll just stay out of the thread instead of saying anything misleading. Just my take on it.

 

[ZoneV]

... If you don't like what you see here.... jog on. Simple really.

You see, David, it's this kind of approach and language that doesn't come across as the most friendly way of communicating with people. Do you see what I mean by that?