Umbrellas - worth using ? is bigger better ?

[mikeyw]

Hi,

I've got a cheap studio kit that came with a couple of 33" umbrellas - i've only really had a quick play with them but wondered if people found them useful ?

Do the larger umbrella's offer better results ? - i was think of picking up a couple of 43" to see if they'd work for shots with a few people in

Are 2 a better option for groups and finally do people find shoot through or reflector give better results ? Usually use bounce flash or use a studio light / softbox but thought i'd explore the umbrella option a bit more

tia,
Mike.

 

[Phil V]

You might get more responses in the lighting section.

The simple answer is that they're different tools for different jobs, I personally don't use brollies a lot because I shoot a lot in small spaces, and so controlling the spill from a brolly would make life difficult.

 

[Deadlock]

In general... umbrellas are cheap, easy to carry and fast to erect. A couple of large umbrellas set to reflect can do the job for lager groups. If you only had 1 light source you could potentially lose a few stops of light going from nearest to furthest subject in the group.

In terms of whats 'best' you need to consider your objectives, style, subject, environment and available tools & modifiers and make your own decision.
Bigger isn't necessarily better. Sometimes you need better quality. Sometimes you need a different tool for the objective.
Play a bit more with what you have got and if you start noticing any limitations with your equipment then is a good time to explore alternatives.

 

[sk66]

Do the larger umbrella's offer better results ? - i was think of picking up a couple of 43" to see if they'd work for shots with a few people in

The only advantage of a larger modifier is when used close. All modifiers of same design have the same coverage/spread/falloff/etc... it's not until it is w/in 1-2x distance that it makes an appreciable difference.

For lighting groups 2 would be better. And you would want to cross light the group to minimize falloff. But don't expect it to be "soft."

 

[juggler]

Hi,

I've got a cheap studio kit that came with a couple of 33" umbrellas - i've only really had a quick play with them but wondered if people found them useful ?

Do the larger umbrella's offer better results ? - i was think of picking up a couple of 43" to see if they'd work for shots with a few people in

Are 2 a better option for groups and finally do people find shoot through or reflector give better results ? Usually use bounce flash or use a studio light / softbox but thought i'd explore the umbrella option a bit more

tia,
Mike.

Ignoring the groups question...

'Better' depends on what you want to achieve.

There's not a lot a vast difference between 33 & 43, really - and in most cases you can probably just move the smaller one closer. A 60" umbrella will make a difference, if you've got room - and enough power - to use it. Before I got my AD360s I used to put 2 or 3 flashguns in mine.

Just remember umbrellas catch the wind much more than softboxes.

Outdoors, shoot through umbrellas tend to be more contrasty than white reflective umbrellas with black backing. (I was a bit surprised by this and need to do some more tests but Neil Van Niekerk agrees).
Indoors, shoot throughs bounce light everywhere so tend to give a softer light.
Neil also says that shoot throughs are more likely to induce lens flare. I haven't yet had a problem.

 

[sk66]

Outdoors, shoot through umbrellas tend to be more contrasty than white reflective umbrellas with black backing. (I was a bit surprised by this and need to do some more tests but Neil Van Niekerk agrees).

The curved surface of a shoot thru tends to act as/create a "hotspot" when used close (due to falloff). A shoot-through also has a smaller effective size for 3 dimensional subjects due to the directions it sends the light (when used at the same distance).

 

[juggler]

The curved surface of a shoot thru tends to act as/create a "hotspot" when used close (due to falloff). A shoot-through also has a smaller effective size for 3 dimensional subjects due to the directions it sends the light (when used at the same distance).

True, but I was surprised by how much difference there was even with a speedlite on max zoom with the diffuser panel down.

 

[sk66]

I find the best way to understand modifiers is to think of the surface as being comprised of tons of tiny bare bulbs that get their light from the strobe.

A shoot thru can be "softer" than a bounce, but only because it can be placed closer (i.e. very close)... and when doing that it needs to positioned to take advantage of any hotspot/unevenness. You might only be "using" 1/2 of the umbrella with the other half going off into space along with whatever light got bounced out the back.

I've seen a lot of "comparisons" done on flat walls/from greater distances... they're very "misleading" as to how they actually "work" IMO.

 

[Kodiak Qc]

•
— An umbrella is cool because of the easy and quick break down.
— It will have a better wrapping than any softbox at close range.
— The larger the umbrella the better the wrapping at close range.
— The umbrella, compared to the softbox, will feature better defini-
tion of the spot, spread, and falloff zones.

 

[sk66]

Because I'm uncertain I understand:

— It will have a better wrapping than any softbox at close range.
*Bounce or shoot-through? I can probably agree with bounce umbrella compared to softbox at the same distance. But a softbox can be placed closer... and IMO, a softbox is easier to feather (fore/aft/angle) in order to maximize/control wrap. I don't think it is true of the shoot-through; unless in a smaller room where it's really the addition to ambient that softens/flattens things.

— The larger the umbrella the better the wrapping at close range.
* True of any modifier

— The umbrella, compared to the softbox, will feature better definition of the spot, spread, and falloff zones.
* I.e. "harder?" I believe this is truer of the shoot-through

I haven't used umbrellas all that much even though I own quite a few... perhaps my experience/knowledge regarding them isn't as refined.

 

[Kodiak Qc]

Because I'm uncertain I understand:

• Right, Steven! my mistake…

It will have a better wrapping than any softbox at close range.

I should have specified… in my mind there is no other umbrella than
the silver, as one can soften a silver but cannot harden a white. If it is not
silver, it is just another toy (I can hear loud protests already!)

The larger the umbrella the better the wrapping at close range.
* True of any modifier

I don't agree on this… but don't believe me; just test a 5 foot box vs a
brolli of the same size and the same distance. It is true only when one
puts a diffusor sock onto the brolly.

I believe this is truer of the shoot-through

Again, not in my experience… the through spills so much, it lack directionality
to be comparable.

I haven't used umbrellas all that much

I believed too in the theory of many things until I got my hands into it.

In theory, theory and practice are the same… but in practice, they are not!

 

[sk66]

I don't agree on this… but don't believe me; just test a 5 foot box vs a
brolli of the same size and the same distance. It is true only when one
puts a diffusor sock onto the brolly.

I think we got crossed... a larger umbrella will have more wrap than a smaller umbrella, and a larger SB will have more wrap than a smaller SB. The same size bounce umbrella will have more "wrap" intensity due to the angle of incidence/efficiency at the edges if used from the same distance. But a SB can be placed closer, so this necessitates a larger bounce for equivalence/gain when working close (at the limits of placement physically/situationally).

Again, not in my experience… the through spills so much, it lack directionality
to be comparable.

IMO, thats environment/situation dependent... outdoors or in a very large/dark room the shoot thru will be harder w/ less wrap than any of the others for a given size/distance. It's just hugely wasteful due to all of the light going everywhere but where you want it. It does have the "advantage" of being able to be placed closer than a bounce. But I think for most the distance limitation of a bounce umbrella is not much of a factor.
** "Harder" is my understanding of "better definition of the spot, spread, and falloff zones."

If it is not
silver, it is just another toy (I can hear loud protests already!)

LOL! While I don't entirely disagree, I think shoot throughs have one advantage. If you want flat "glamour" type lighting one can easily achieve decent results with just one light and a shoot through in a smallish room.
And a lot of people *do* want that flatness, at least when first starting out... maybe that's why shoot throughs are the most commonly bundled modifier in the "starter kits."
I do think there's usually "better" ways of going about it, but "quick/cheap/easy" does have it's advantages.

One thing I think is "overemphasized" is size... at longer distances it makes little difference, you have to *significantly* increase the size to see any notable gain/change. IMO, what matters much more is distance. It affects not only the wrap/apparent size, but also the falloff, contrast, DR, BG, etc, etc. And at short range, even minor changes in distance/placement can have a significant impact on the image.

 

[HoppyUK]

<snip>
In theory, theory and practice are the same… but in practice, they are not!

Theory and practise will always agree. If they don't, then one or other is misunderstood