UK immigration have your say here- Government petition

The question that needs to be asked is why would they further risk their lives traveling to Libya and then crossing the med when safety lies just a few miles across the Syrian border in places like Jordan ? Simple really our streets appear paved with gold to them.
There is no need or logic to claiming asylum in Europe when the whole premise of asylum is that you flee to the nearest place/ country that offers safety.
So to my mind the system is being abused for the economic opportunities they think will exist here rather than being in genuine fear for their lives.
Hence my stance is " just say no" forget the emotional blackmail of the images seen, shut the doors and turn out the lights.
 
Given the current climate for terrorism I can see why countries are closing their borders, it doesn't seem wise to me to allow many people in without checks when you know nothing of their background or whether they're there for genuine reasons
 
magicaxeman said:
The question that needs to be asked is why would they further risk their lives traveling to Libya and then crossing the med when safety lies just a few miles across the Syrian border in places like Jordan ? Simple really our streets appear paved with gold to them.
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80% of Syrian refuges are already in Jordan. The camps are overcrowded and under-resourced. And history tells us that refugee camps aren't really that safe. Violent crime and rapes are common. It might be better than a war zone, but a squalid refugee camp is no utopia, and I can quite understand why a minority decide to go someplace else.
 
Mmmm enjoyed Oktoberfest last year. Pity I couldn't go again this year.
 
Can someone explain why this is a European problem when the wealthiest gulf states (Qatar, The United Arab Emirates, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and Bahrain) have taken in exactly zero refugees. I have sympathy for genuine refugees who seek safety in the first available country and would hope that the international community would step in and help with looking after them and even allow them sanctuary within their countries, but I have no time for economic migrants who demand entry to a particular country for financial reasons. They should quite simply be sent back home and if this cannot be done for whatever reason then they should be detained until they are checked and processed and then either allowed to migrate or returned to their original country.
 
If a refugee turns up on a European shore or crosses into Europe, then they are a European problem.

If someone is in a war zone or flees from war into another country, it's still everyone's problem.

As well as helping these people we should be, and are, trying to spread the load by getting other countries to help. But some are quite reluctant.
 
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tarric said:
Can someone explain why this is a European problem when the wealthiest gulf states (Qatar, The United Arab Emirates, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and Bahrain) have taken in exactly zero refugees.
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a) The Gulf states don't want them
b) The refugees don't want to go there (and I don't blame them)
 
ianp5a said:
If a refugee turns up on a European shore or crosses into Europe, then they are a European problem.

If someone is in a war zone or flees from war into another country, it's still everyone's problem.

As well as helping these people we should be, and are, trying to spread the load by getting other countries to help. But some are quite reluctant.
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Yes and if we keep taking them they will continue to come so how many 1,000, 100,000, 1,000,000, 10,000,000, when do we say enough is enough our services are already struggling to cope. This used to be a flagship hospital and if it’s struggling to cope how do you think the rest are going to manage this winter
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&r...con6onXjKrfbY_77ThNzng&bvm=bv.103388427,d.bGg

I agree that we should help refugees but migrants are another matter.


Llamaman said:
a) The Gulf states don't want them
b) The refugees don't want to go there (and I don't blame them)
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Do you really think that most of Europe really wants them?

Yes but as genuine refugees are you allowed to pick and choose the country you seek refuge in, can you demand to be sent to where you think you will get the best deal.
 
tarric said:
Do you really think that most of Europe really wants them?
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Only 4 countries voted against the proposals last night.

tarric said:
Yes but as genuine refugees are you allowed to pick and choose the country you seek refuge in
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I think you can reasonably not want to go to a country where you will be discriminated against. The Gulf states have appalling record with regards to human rights, justice, religious freedoms etc. Can't imagine many Alawites or Coptic Christians will be rushing to find refuge in Sunni Saudi, given that they are the main exporter of the Wahhabi extremist philosophy that has contributed to their plight.
 
tarric said:
Yes and if we keep taking them they will continue to come so how many 1,000, 100,000, 1,000,000, 10,000,000, when do we say enough is enough our services are already struggling to cope. This used to be a flagship hospital and if it’s struggling to cope how do you think the rest are going to manage this winter
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=11&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CEgQFjAKahUKEwibmY7C_ozIAhWH8RQKHTdLChE&url=http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/sep/22/prestigious-nhs-hospital-in-special-measures-after-serious-staff-shortages&usg=AFQjCNEykalncon6onXjKrfbY_77ThNzng&bvm=bv.103388427,d.bGg

I agree that we should help refugees but migrants are another matter.




Do you really think that most of Europe really wants them?

Yes but as genuine refugees are you allowed to pick and choose the country you seek refuge in, can you demand to be sent to where you think you will get the best deal.
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People are being hoodwinked into thinking the reason for failing hospitals is due to immigration - not cuts (sorry, 'efficiency savings').
 
tarric said:
This is politicians voting I don’t regard them as being representive of the people of Europe just the political elite.
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The people of Europe voted each and every one of those politicians into their seats.

Not happy about it? Then act...don't bleat.
 
Rapscallion said:
People are being hoodwinked into thinking the reason for failing hospitals is due to immigration - not cuts (sorry, 'efficiency savings').
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Some people maybe, I'll be the first to admit austerity and "efficiency savings" are not helping but some off the blame must also go to the ever increasing population and when you have net migration averaging over 250,000 over the last 10 years this doesn't help.

viv1969 said:
The people of Europe voted each and every one of those politicians into their seats.

Not happy about it? Then act...don't bleat.
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Who's bleating! I'm not disputing the fact that they were voted in to their positions and at various times over the next 1-5 years they will need to be voted in again.

I was replying to Llamaman’s post 170.

All I was saying is that this was a vote by politicians and IMO not representative off the European people as a whole thence the quoted articles.
 
tarric said:
Some people maybe, I'll be the first to admit austerity and "efficiency savings" are not helping but some off the blame must also go to the ever increasing population and when you have net migration averaging over 250,000 over the last 10 years this doesn't help.

...
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Immigrants are net contributors to the economy. So if services are being overwhelmed, it is because those services have not been given enough money to run not because immigrants are bleeding the system.
 
Rapscallion said:
Immigrants are net contributors to the economy. So if services are being overwhelmed, it is because those services have not been given enough money to run not because immigrants are bleeding the system.
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Yes as all the research shows us immigrants make a substantial contribution to public finances, but these are the ones working legally and paying taxes, but what about the estimated 600,000 illegal immigrants who pay no taxes but still use public services, and as I said how many of the current influx are going to end up here whether allowed or arriving illegally.
 
No kind of legislation, caps or point system will stop illegals, so sort of irrelevant to this particular thread, as "having your say" will make no difference whatsoever.
 
tarric said:
Yes as all the research shows us immigrants make a substantial contribution to public finances, but these are the ones working legally and paying taxes, but what about the estimated 600,000 illegal immigrants who pay no taxes but still use public services, and as I said how many of the current influx are going to end up here whether allowed or arriving illegally.
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I'm always intrigued by people who can put a number on illegal immigrants, I'm also intrigued to know how these illegals get access to public services, because every time I access one of these services I have to get through a security gateway of some description. Without a NI no and NHS registration no I'm buggered. So how can an illegal immigrant just wander into a hospital and get treated, or send their kids to school?

Illegal immigrants are stuck in the black economy with no state protection and are more often victims of criminal gangmasters or pimps than people living the high life on my taxes.
 
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You cannot put a number on illegal immigrants but lots of people far cleverer than me try and in the most resent off these in 2009 they estimate it at between 417,000 and 863,000 now I don't see that number having gone down and by the governments own figures that put the annual cost to the economy off between £1,772,250,000 and £3,667,750,000.
 
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tarric said:
You cannot put a number on illegal immigrants but lots of people far cleverer than me try and in the most resent off these in 2009 they estimate it at between 417,000 and 863,000 now I don't see that number having gone down and by the governments own figures that put the annual cost to the economy off between £1,772,250,000 and £3,667,750,000.
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Those numbers vary so wildly.
They're not estimates, they're arrows fired blindfold at a dartboard.
 
tarric said:
You cannot put a number on illegal immigrants but lots of people far cleverer than me try and in the most resent off these in 2009 they estimate it at between 417,000 and 863,000 now I don't see that number having gone down and by the governments own figures that put the annual cost to the economy off between £1,772,250,000 and £3,667,750,000.
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Do you appreciate what a 'cost to the economy' figure means?
It's largely based around lost income tax, lost production to the economy due to the black economy etc. In short it's [PLEASE DON'T TRY TO BYPASS THE SWEAR FILTER] because it's at best a wet finger (see how wide the estimate is). Like I said, people need to get their heads around what an 'illegal immigrant' is, they're not people who sneak under the wire claim benefits and have major operations. They're smuggled here by criminal gangs, they have no access to what we describe as an 'ordinary life', they are basically slaves of the criminals that got them here. I'm all in favour of stopping that happening, as everyone should be, but that's not because of what they cost me, it's because it's a humanitarian tragedy.

I'm always reminded of the shock DM headline 'The Government doesn't know how many illegal immigrants are in the UK', which bizarrely people who should be more intelligent still find themselves outraged by. I'm only outraged that there's so many people with such a low IQ they don't understand how ridiculous the story is.
 
I should have been more concise the monitory figures quoted only include the estimated cost to two areas the NHS and Education if you take lost income tax; lost production to the economy due to the black economy etc. the cost is far higher. As I have said no one knows the true extent of illegal immigration by its very nature you can’t ask them(but IMO it is probably an under estimate), but these are from a well regarded institution and well regarded researchers. I also understand what an illegal immigrant is but do you or do you believe that all illegal immigrants are as you say slaves, and have absolutely no impact on our social services be that benefits, NHS or education. As for the ones that are trafficked if you cracked down on illegal immigration it would help put a stop to this evil practice, I'm not saying that it would stop it but it would hopefully make it harder for them.
 
tarric said:
I should have been more concise the monitory figures quoted only include the estimated cost to two areas the NHS and Education if you take lost income tax; lost production to the economy due to the black economy etc. the cost is far higher. As I have said no one knows the true extent of illegal immigration by its very nature you can’t ask them(but IMO it is probably an under estimate), but these are from a well regarded institution and well regarded researchers. I also understand what an illegal immigrant is but do you or do you believe that all illegal immigrants are as you say slaves, and have absolutely no impact on our social services be that benefits, NHS or education. As for the ones that are trafficked if you cracked down on illegal immigration it would help put a stop to this evil practice, I'm not saying that it would stop it but it would hopefully make it harder for them.
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I don't think you'll find anyone from any part of the political spectrum who doesn't want to put a stop to illegal immigrants.

The only difference is the 'priority', and motive.

The big issue (and you see it everywhere) is that the unthinking can't make a distinction between an illegal immigrant, a refugee and an economic migrant. It's also worrying that people read 'economic migrant' as someone coming here to claim benefits*, rather than coming here to work as a doctor or nurse, open a shop, relocate a business to employ people etc. As many studies by government and independent bodies show, there's a nett gain to the economy from immigration. But facts like that are difficult to accept when the media have an agenda to use immigration and benefits as a cloak to hide the f***wittery of the government.

*no matter how many times you tell people that it's not possible as there's no automatic immediate entitlement to most benefits for people entering the country.
 
Phil V said:
I don't think you'll find anyone from any part of the political spectrum who doesn't want to put a stop to illegal immigrants.

The only difference is the 'priority', and motive.

The big issue (and you see it everywhere) is that the unthinking can't make a distinction between an illegal immigrant, a refugee and an economic migrant. It's also worrying that people read 'economic migrant' as someone coming here to claim benefits*, rather than coming here to work as a doctor or nurse, open a shop, relocate a business to employ people etc. As many studies by government and independent bodies show, there's a nett gain to the economy from immigration. But facts like that are difficult to accept when the media have an agenda to use immigration and benefits as a cloak to hide the f***wittery of the government.

*no matter how many times you tell people that it's not possible as there's no automatic immediate entitlement to most benefits for people entering the country.
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+1Google spoken as an economic migrant myself :thumbs:
 
ianp5a said:
Yep. I'm also an economic migrant. We're the best!
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If you're a Brit who's moved abroad for work, you're an ex-pat, not an economic migrant ;)

Which also excuses ex pats building whole communities abroad, not learning to speak the language and just out and out refusing to integrate. Of course if foreigners come here...
 
Phil V said:
If you're a Brit who's moved abroad for work, you're an ex-pat, not an economic migrant ;)

Which also excuses ex pats building whole communities abroad, not learning to speak the language and just out and out refusing to integrate. Of course if foreigners come here...
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Not a cliché either. I have had the sad misfortune to meet those people as anyone that has been to Chavidorm or Torrevieja has.
 
Phil V said:
I'm always intrigued by people who can put a number on illegal immigrants, I'm also intrigued to know how these illegals get access to public services, because every time I access one of these services I have to get through a security gateway of some description. Without a NI no and NHS registration no I'm buggered. So how can an illegal immigrant just wander into a hospital and get treated, or send their kids to school?

Illegal immigrants are stuck in the black economy with no state protection and are more often victims of criminal gangmasters or pimps than people living the high life on my taxes.
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They could assume other peoples identity. As far as hospitals go they may well be stuffed but that doesn't stop them trying. I've known people take driving tests for brothers etc. It probably wouldn't be hard for the criminals to clone someone else's identity for illegal immigrants. It happens often enough with people assuming someone else's identity to claim other stuff.
 
nilagin said:
They could assume other peoples identity. As far as hospitals go they may well be stuffed but that doesn't stop them trying. I've known people take driving tests for brothers etc. It probably wouldn't be hard for the criminals to clone someone else's identity for illegal immigrants. It happens often enough with people assuming someone else's identity to claim other stuff.
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It does indeed - and identity theft is obviously a crime, and not an uncommon one, but we need to keep the distinction - because otherwise we get sucked into the Britain First belief that illegal immigrants land here and are treated 'better than our own people' which ought to be laughable but unfortunately isn't. Just look at how this thread moved from immigration to illegal immigrants - people struggle with the difference.
 
Phil V said:
I don't think you'll find anyone from any part of the political spectrum who doesn't want to put a stop to illegal immigrants.

The only difference is the 'priority', and motive.

The big issue (and you see it everywhere) is that the unthinking can't make a distinction between an illegal immigrant, a refugee and an economic migrant. It's also worrying that people read 'economic migrant' as someone coming here to claim benefits*, rather than coming here to work as a doctor or nurse, open a shop, relocate a business to employ people etc. As many studies by government and independent bodies show, there's a nett gain to the economy from immigration. But facts like that are difficult to accept when the media have an agenda to use immigration and benefits as a cloak to hide the f***wittery of the government.

*no matter how many times you tell people that it's not possible as there's no automatic immediate entitlement to most benefits for people entering the country.
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I also don't think the press help with their coverage, in most of the items I see be it newspapers, radio or TV they also seem to have a problem with the terminology. To me an Illegal immigrant is someone who has entered or is trying to enter the country illegally and they should be detained, processed and then sent back, a refugee is someone who is in fear of being persecuted for reasons of race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group or political opinion and again these should be detained their story checked and if true offered asylum and if not sent back, a migrant, especially economic migrants, choose to move in order to improve the future prospects of themselves and their families and this should be controlled by the host country and they should decide who they want to let in. Now obviously this does not cover refugees suffering from Conflict-Induced Displacement which we are told by the press that what’s happening at the moment throughout Europe, now while I have no doubt this is true of some of them, I also think that a lot of people are using this situation to come to Europe as economic migrants and illegal immigrants and they should be treated as such. The true refugees fleeing these conflicts should be taken to safe havens in neighbouring countries, and this is where I think we start to fall down I would like to see them looked after and the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees organise for the most vulnerable to be moved to safe countries on the understanding that at the end of the conflict they return home and have no right to stay in the host country.
 
Phil V said:
It does indeed - and identity theft is obviously a crime, and not an uncommon one, but we need to keep the distinction - because otherwise we get sucked into the Britain First belief that illegal immigrants land here and are treated 'better than our own people' which ought to be laughable but unfortunately isn't. Just look at how this thread moved from immigration to illegal immigrants - people struggle with the difference.
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The confusion probably starts with illegals mixing with asylum seekers trying to get in. You only have to watch the news or read the papers to see how some of them are conducting themselves in their plight to cross Europe. It's no wonder people get p'd off with them and lump them all together and see them all as a bad egg.
 
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