Todays teachers strike

DemiLion said:
Please Sir, can I have a go about Messrs Blair and Brown instead Sir? They were very nasty to photographers as well Sir?


:lol:

tbh This thread has been much better tempered than the one about the student's protest earlier in the year, and much more informative as well in some respects.
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Aspects of it are quiet funny :)
 
as long as we dont stray too political its ok

getting round the table to discuss is the thing to do, withdrawl of labour should be a last resort, while plans are at proposal stage isnt really that time IMHO.
 
matty said:
as long as we dont stray too political its ok

getting round the table to discuss is the thing to do, withdrawl of labour should be a last resort, while plans are at proposal stage isnt really that time IMHO.
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So where's the incentive for the employer to take any notice of the worker's demands?
 
if all the staff leave they are screwed. striking before even getting that far is not a good idea, it doesnt generate support from those who are not affected by the plans but are affected by the action.
 
matty said:
if all the staff leave they are screwed. striking before even getting that far is not a good idea, it doesnt generate support from those who are not affected by the plans but are affected by the action.
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But surely that's not a problem with "striking in general", it's a problem in the attitude of a few whiny parents who don't understand the gravity of the situation?
 
I’ve followed & posted on this thread, can anyone tell me if the Bankers have stopped paying huge bonuses & are MP’s cutting & changing their pensions?

It seems any government is very good at using the “Divide and conquer” method!
Equal among equals spring to mind?
 
Mickwreay said:
I’ve followed & posted on this thread, can anyone tell me if the Bankers have stopped paying huge bonuses & are MP’s cutting & changing their pensions?

It seems any government is very good at using the “Divide and conquer” method!
Equal among equals spring to mind?
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But of course, some are more equal than others ;)
 
Superewza said:
But surely that's not a problem with "striking in general", it's a problem in the attitude of a few whiny parents who don't understand the gravity of the situation?
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well generally strikers leave it to the bitter end, but even then the strikers lose money, the business they work for lose money, and the punters who are affected lose money. Striking works really well all the time too, ask the miners...

in this case, unfortunately a few whiny parents are the least of the strikers worries, and its definitely not the parents who dont understand the gravity of the situation, its the public sector in general.
 
matty said:
well generally strikers leave it to the bitter end, but even then the strikers lose money, the business they work for lose money, and the punters who are affected lose money. Striking works really well all the time too, ask the miners...

in this case, unfortunately a few whiny parents are the least of the strikers worries, and its definitely not the parents who dont understand the gravity of the situation, its the public sector in general.
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Except that the pattern and methodology of striking has changed significantly since 1984 - and in that case the miners were stuffed by their own leader Scargill.

More worrying is the modern tactic adopted by the RMT under Crow, which uses minimum stoppage/ maximum disruption as a weapon. The strikes are planned so that the workers lose the least pay possible, but cause maximum effect by picking the time of day (and the day itself) on which the 24hr stoppage commences.

Taking that further, the RMT have actually shown that short stoppages can have a significant effect on the negotiating table and in the recent past it's swung the outcome more in their favour several times.

If the rest of the TUC start following that path the we really will be in for some fun!
 
Mickwreay said:
I’ve followed & posted on this thread, can anyone tell me if the Bankers have stopped paying huge bonuses & are MP’s cutting & changing their pensions?

It seems any government is very good at using the “Divide and conquer” method!
Equal among equals spring to mind?
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well yes and no actually, MP final salary pension is set to be closed with the budget for MPs being cut by 17%, while banks have been levied tax on bank profits, as annoying as it might be, bankers are privately employed by PLC, the government has no say in what companies can and cant pay in bonuses, however much we might want them to.
 
DemiLion said:
Except that the pattern and methodology of striking has changed significantly since 1984 - and in that case the miners were stuffed by their own leader Scargill.

More worrying is the modern tactic adopted by the RMT under Crow, which uses minimum stoppage/ maximum disruption as a weapon. The strikes are planned so that the workers lose the least pay possible, but cause maximum effect by picking the time of day (and the day itself) on which the 24hr stoppage commences.

Taking that further, the RMT have actually shown that short stoppages can have a significant effect on the negotiating table and in the recent past it's swung the outcome more in their favour several times.

If the rest of the TUC start following that path the we really will be in for some fun!
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it depends who is at the table and how much stomach for a fight they have.
 
matty said:
it depends who is at the table and how much stomach for a fight they have.
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I agree completely, and I think that we've only seen the start of what's really coming. The Govt. can't back down too far because they just don't have the dosh, pure and simple. The Public Sector feel (or will feel if they don't already) massively aggrieved by the extent of the cuts, and there are more to come. They're between a rock and a hard place, and the only way to vent is to take industrial action.

In all honesty I don't think that either side is wrong, as long as the protests remain short and peaceful. The Govt have no choice, whilst the labour force need a way to express their frustration.

It's not perfect but the country is deep in it and retrenchment is the only way out of the mess.
 
Not saying I'mm porfect, but living in a glass house mate
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Fair enough Mick, but i'm just an uneducated engineer from the east end who left school at sixteen to do an apprenticeship

Not great when teachers can't spell properly, hardly the best message to pass onto the students, one sees so much poor spelling and grammar these days and it does still matter especially as a first impression to a prospective employer
 
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tijuana taxi said:
Fair enough Mick, but i'm just an uneducated engineer from the east end who left school at sixteen to do an apprenticeship

Not great when teachers can't spell properly, hardly the best message to pass onto the students, one sees so much poor spelling and grammar these days and it does still matter especially as a first impression to a prospective employer
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With all respect I am not out to impress you, be employed by you or have you as a student ... and as for first impressions .. I made one didn't I? :D
 
Have to agree to disagree I reckon, poor spelling might be seen by some as acceptable, but good English and arithmetic skills are the cornerstones of education.

Some of the documents I see might just as well be written in Esperanto and its common knowledge that if something is too hard work to decipher it just gets discarded

Daresay you are as impressed with me as I am with you, reckon that's a draw then :)
 
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tijuana taxi said:
Have to agree to disagree I reckon, poor spelling might be seen by some as acceptable, but good English and arithmetic skills are the cornerstones of education.

Some of the documents I see might just as well be written in Esperanto and its common knowledge that if something is too hard work to decipher it just gets discarded

Daresay you are as impressed with me as I am with you, reckon that's a draw then :)
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See there you go again reading something into something I did not say .... I am way to much hard work to decipher and on that note I am going to buzz off as I am out on the town tonight and bouncing my ass off tomorrow at Foo Fighters .. you have left no real impression ... but hey I am cool with that ...

Being fluffy is nice sometimes ;)
 
DemiLion said:
I agree completely, and I think that we've only seen the start of what's really coming. The Govt. can't back down too far because they just don't have the dosh, pure and simple. The Public Sector feel (or will feel if they don't already) massively aggrieved by the extent of the cuts, and there are more to come. They're between a rock and a hard place, and the only way to vent is to take industrial action.

In all honesty I don't think that either side is wrong, as long as the protests remain short and peaceful. The Govt have no choice, whilst the labour force need a way to express their frustration.

It's not perfect but the country is deep in it and retrenchment is the only way out of the mess.
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I think all sides, both public & private realise things need to change. But surely it makes sense to graduate the changes?

I’m presuming the public sector pension forecast is based on the current system? So, why not draw a line in the sand & hence forth change the rules, then if people don’t like the package then there will be no public sector employees! Obviously there will be, but the newcomers will have the choice. As I’ve said previously, this was the deal for the Armed Forces, we got a choice & the new system is obviously a lot better for the treasury or it would not have been suggested.

I left the RAF last year & had decided to stay on the old scheme, two of my son’s joined the Royal Navy and are under the new pension scheme, but they knew this when they joined up.

I honestly think that if the government implemented the changes in a more considered way, there would not be so much resistance. I worked through the changes in the forces pension scheme & I can’t remember anyone feeling massively aggrieved at the time.

I have family members in the private sector & yes there were changes to their schemes, however it seemed they were moved across to a non final salary scheme, but they retained reserved rights to the point when the new scheme was implemented.
There is no point in simply slinging mud at each other, we are human & we will ALL fight for our own interests. It’s what we do :shrug:
 
Samphire said:
With all respect I am not out to impress you, be employed by you or have you as a student ... and as for first impressions .. I made one didn't I? :D
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In effect you are employed by us, as we pay your wages.
 
whiteflyer said:
In effect you are employed by us, as we pay your wages.
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No you don't :lol: you pay into the country’s economy :shrug: The government employs the public sector.

If that’s the way you see it, we all employ each other, as there is a finite amount of wealth in the world & it all just washes through our hands at some point in your life!
 
Mickwreay said:
No you don't :lol: you pay into the country’s economy :shrug: The government employs the public sector.

If that’s the way you see it, we all employ each other, as there is a finite amount of wealth in the world & it all just washes through our hands at some point in your life!
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:thumbs:
 
Jim.R said:
Are you saying that if you were suddenly forced to lose a portion of your take home pay that you'd be happy? With no alternative then to go along with it if you wish to continue in your current career?
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No, I'm saying when leaving school and choosing a career, no-one does so with thoughts of what pension they would be getting.
There are very few jobs about in my chosen career so I would have to take a cut in wages if that were the case, in fact I have already, I'm at least £5k a year down on previous earnings. At 48 I'd be hard pushed to retrain for a new career to earn the same money anyway.
 
If only more people would take up smoking, drinking and eating 4 portions of chips a day.... That way life expectancy would drop then people could continue on the pension schemes they are on as that could be affordable!
 
cambsno said:
If only more people would take up smoking, drinking and eating 4 portions of chips a day.... That way life expectancy would drop then people could continue on the pension schemes they are on as that could be affordable!
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Actually That's not too far from What's happening with kids these days and why the living longer argument is [PLEASE DON'T TRY TO BYPASS THE SWEAR FILTER] ..... as far as pensions of the future are concerned.......
 
Mickwreay said:
No you don't :lol: you pay into the country’s economy :shrug: The government employs the public sector.

If that’s the way you see it, we all employ each other, as there is a finite amount of wealth in the world & it all just washes through our hands at some point in your life!
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The government has NO money, they only have the money taken from us the tax payer, if fact the government work for us we employ them every 4 or 5 years.

It called the PUBLIC sector for a reason because you work for the PUBLIC.

This is one of the problems with the public sector you just understand the simple truth of who you work for, you work for US.
 
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cambsno said:
If only more people would take up smoking, drinking and eating 4 portions of chips a day.... That way life expectancy would drop then people could continue on the pension schemes they are on as that could be affordable!
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Splog said:
Actually That's not too far from What's happening with kids these days and why the living longer argument is [PLEASE DON'T TRY TO BYPASS THE SWEAR FILTER] ..... as far as pensions of the future are concerned.......
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The living argument is correct at this moment in time, there is no doubt at all that people are living longer now than they did in the past, especially when the old age pension was set-up.

We have much better medical knowledge now and we don't send 14 kids up smoky dust filled chimneys any more and all the other things we did to shorten our lives, but if obesity keeps growing at the current rate, your correct life expectancy is expected to stagnate or even reduce.
 
Dont forget, the 65 retirement date was probably set when you would expect to live until 70 or 75. Now that is more likely to be 80+ now, and with the developments in medicine, I guess that people in their 30s and 40s could easily expect this to get to 90 or so.

I am sure teachers (and most of us) can work out that something has to give - work longer, pay more in ourselves and take a lower amount out the pot each month (or a combo of all 3).
 
whiteflyer said:
The government has NO money, they only have the money taken from us the tax payer, if fact the government work for us we employ them every 4 or 5 years.

It called the PUBLIC sector for a reason because you work for the PUBLIC.

This is one of the problems with the public sector you just understand the simple truth of who you work for, you work for US.
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Sorry but that is wrong.

You don't pay taxes to the government of the day, you pay them to the Crown who then decides how those funds will be used.

The public sector is either employed directly by the Crown (Armed Forces, Police etc) or by one of the Govt Depts on behalf of the Crown. Teachers fall into the latter category, although they are part funded by the Dept Ed and part by the LEA (or whichever the modern terminology is). Their pensions however are centrally managed by the Govt.

Interestingly most teachers working in the private sector are also members of the state pension scheme, with their own schools making the employer's contribution instead of the Govt , which is why they were involved in the protest on Thursday as well.
 
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Jim.R said:
Are you saying that if you were suddenly forced to lose a portion of your take home pay that you'd be happy? With no alternative then to go along with it if you wish to continue in your current career?
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October 2008
Thousands of staff at digger manufacturer JCB have voted to take a £50-a-week pay cut to save 350 jobs.

July 2009
British Airways pilots have voted overwhelmingly to accept a 2.6% pay cut, the British Airline Pilots' Association (Balpa) has announced.

December 2008
Yesterday representatives of 25,000 steelworkers at Corus were locked in talks with management amid speculation they are set to agree a 10 per cent pay reduction.

December 2009
MORE than 100 people have agreed to take a pay cut to save their jobs at John McGavigan Ltd.


We in the private sector have been having it tough for a few years now, with many not getting a pay rise either, un-like some I can mention

Teachers in England and Wales will get pay rises above the 2% inflation target set by Prime Minister Gordon Brown.

The three-year pay deal will mean increases of 2.45% in September 2008 and 2.3% in each of the following two years
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I will admit that I have been lucky as last year we got a 1% pay rise, and this years offer is 1.75% to cover the next 16 months, oh and £10 a year extra on out £130 a year attendance allowance ( we get £32 a quarter, but one day off and it's gone for that quarter)

Then again 1.75% of diddle squat is diddle squat.
 
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Mickwreay said:
No you don't :lol: you pay into the country’s economy :shrug: The government employs the public sector.

If that’s the way you see it, we all employ each other, as there is a finite amount of wealth in the world & it all just washes through our hands at some point in your life!
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The state, not the government, employs the public sector workers but it only consumes wealth, it doesn't create or generate it. Its only sources of income are the taxpayer, and borrowing on the strength of the tax base. I'd say the taxpayer employs the state and its workforce, including MPs.

Why do you say there's only a finite amount of wealth in the world? It's unlimited - just numbers in digital databases - since fiat money became the rule. That's why governments can "stimulate" economies by "creating" more money, a lot more.
 
Samphire said:
Not in my free time on an online forum you don't :)
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If we're paying your wages, you use that money to live, including your free time on an online forum. Face it we own you.:lol:

cambsno said:
If only more people would take up smoking, drinking and eating 4 portions of chips a day.... That way life expectancy would drop then people could continue on the pension schemes they are on as that could be affordable!
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That would only mean any money saved on pensions would be spent/wasted on NHS instead.
 
Martyn,

I’m simply trying to say, we will disappear up our own backsides in this debate. :lol: State, Queen or Government (none of them care). If we all employ the public sector, then how come only the MPs decide on their employment T&Cs? I’d say the Government employ the public sector.
The MP’s expenses scandal shows the utter contempt they have for the British public!

It is only human to fight for what YOU perceive to be YOUR rights? :shrug:

Mark,
There have already been massive cuts in the public sector; the Armed Forces have been slashed over the period I served. Don't remember the private sector fighting against those cuts? And they are on a pay freeze :razz:

Again, I would ask. Why aren’t the changes (that are required) phased in more slowly? New recruits into any public or private sector position get the choice to then accept or walk away from the deal :rules:
 
whiteflyer said:
October 2008
Thousands of staff at digger manufacturer JCB have voted to take a £50-a-week pay cut to save 350 jobs.

July 2009
British Airways pilots have voted overwhelmingly to accept a 2.6% pay cut, the British Airline Pilots' Association (Balpa) has announced.

December 2008
Yesterday representatives of 25,000 steelworkers at Corus were locked in talks with management amid speculation they are set to agree a 10 per cent pay reduction.

December 2009
MORE than 100 people have agreed to take a pay cut to save their jobs at John McGavigan Ltd.

We in the private sector have been having it tough for a few years now, with many not getting a pay rise either, un-like some I can mention

I will admit that I have been lucky as last year we got a 1% pay rise, and this years offer is 1.75% to cover the next 16 months, oh and £10 a year extra on out £130 a year attendance allowance ( we get £32 a quarter, but one day off and it's gone for that quarter)

Then again 1.75% of diddle squat is diddle squat.
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Being as you own us I thought you would have known we are on a 2 year pay freeze.
 
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