Todays teachers strike

[Matt]

shouldnt have striked.

money is a problem, we all need to work together to get through it, and pensions are one area that is a massive elephant in the room for the future generations

migrant labour work harder than a lot of the slackers we have in the UK, thats a fact that many people dont like, but in 5 years ive seen it countless times, to the point now where if im dealing with UK labour on a job im worried that it will be complete on time, while migrant teams will finish ahead of time.

 

[tiler65]

Well let's see.

9k per year in university fees start this year and you can't see why this will continue or get worse? £54k in uni fees alone to become a doctor from September.

Different argument but I will give you my piece.

Are 11 years free education not enough?.....

Who pays for an an apprenticeship?.......the employer and the employee (in lieu of low wages).....so why should a student, wanting to better themselves not pay for it and it has been pointed out on many occasions, the fees only get paid back when they earn enough money to do so.

Carl, if you went any further left you would fall off the edge of the Earth.

 

[Byker28i]

Sorry, but it just seems these people still don't understand. The rest of the working population have had this happen to them 2-3 years ago and mass redundancies as well. It's unfortunate, but having been protected until now, it's the public sectors turn.

It not like they are facing the mass redundancies that the private sector faced, along with pay cuts as well. In that way they are still being protected

 

[tiler65]

shouldnt have striked.
migrant labour work harder than a lot of the slackers we have in the UK, thats a fact that many people dont like, but in 5 years ive seen it countless times, to the point now where if im dealing with UK labour on a job im worried that it will be complete on time, while migrant teams will finish ahead of time.

I have a slight problem with this.

I was a migrant worker in the late 80's and early 90's in West Germany and then Germany.

The reason for me working out there was that our country was in a poor state so I had to find work.

Germany called and off I went with thousands of other Brits and Irish.

We worked harder than the locals did too, just like the migrants do here and the reason .....because we were there to work and not doss about!

We were paid less per hour/price/piecework but earned more because we did more.

 

[Matt]

I have a slight problem with this.

I was a migrant worker in the late 80's and early 90's in West Germany and then Germany.

The reason for me working out there was that our country was in a poor state so I had to find work.

Germany called and off I went with thousands of other Brits and Irish.

We worked harder than the locals did too, just like the migrants do here and the reason .....because we were there to work and not doss about!

We were paid less per hour/price/piecework but earned more because we did more.

Not sure what your problem with it is then, as you know it's true. I did a job last year, paid uk workers day rate £150 per day. Slack bastids arrived on site at 8.30 , ****ed off for breakfast at 9, and knocked off at 3. This year a similar job, same rate but the guys are polish, I'd had it priced from our uk team, they said 3 weeks, the poles did it in 2 and did it better. Likewise in the factory, half the youngsters have no work ethic, no sense of pride and no brains, why pay them to do a job badly when there are plenty of others out there willing to work to the required standard without the baggage and ********? Better value to pay migrant workers same rates as they work much harder. Uk youth need a kick up the arse as there is no respect, pride, ability or desire in too many uk workers.

 

[tiler65]

Not sure what your problem with it is then, as you know it's true. I did a job last year, paid uk workers day rate £150 per day. Slack bastids arrived on site at 8.30 , ****ed off for breakfast at 9, and knocked off at 3. This year a similar job, same rate but the guys are polish, I'd had it priced from our uk team, they said 3 weeks, the poles did it in 2 and did it better. Likewise in the factory, half the youngsters have no work ethic, no sense of pride and no brains, why pay them to do a job badly when there are plenty of others out there willing to work to the required standard without the baggage and ********? Better value to pay migrant workers same rates as they work much harder. Uk youth need a kick up the arse as there is no respect, pride, ability or desire in too many uk workers.

Yes I was tying to get the point across that not all UK workers were/are lame.

As for the youngsters of today...we have to blame ourselves and our parents as we have let them (the youngsters) get away with it, all this free love and spirit in the 60's is coming back to haunt us now.

 

[Matt]

Yes I was tying to get the point across that not all UK workers were/are lame.

As for the youngsters of today...we have to blame ourselves and our parents as we have let them (the youngsters) get away with it, all this free love and spirit in the 60's is coming back to haunt us now.

Not all, no, but sadly it's a lot that I have to deal with. We have 2 guys, Neal and phil, they work as a pair and are brilliant. We need more of them.

 

[Digikat]

They took on a job that gave them certain pension, allowed them to retire at a certain age and based on this the monthly pension contribution is xx. Now that has been changed and it is a significant change.

Funny that's exactly what happened to me and a lot of people my age, I started paying national insurance my retirement age was 60, now it's 66..I have a private pension which I could take benefits at 50 now it'a 55.

If teachers want to retire at 55 that's fine but like the rest of us they need to fund it not the taxpayers.

 

[whiteflyer]

Different argument but I will give you my piece.

Are 11 years free education not enough?.....

Who pays for an an apprenticeship?.......the employer and the employee (in lieu of low wages).....so why should a student, wanting to better themselves not pay for it and it has been pointed out on many occasions, the fees only get paid back when they earn enough money to do so.

Carl, if you went any further left you would fall off the edge of the Earth.

I'm time served and did a full apprenticeship. I worked 40 hours a week PLUS night school, I did this for 47 weeks a year for 3 years on very low paid. I did this to enable me to earn more money later in life as a skilled craftsman. I did not get anything from the tax paying public and why should students.

I firmly believe the fees to be a good idea, and to some extent think they should be paying earlier. I would hope that by having to pay to go to uni, student will be more selective in the subjects taken.

 

[boyfalldown]

But it blows out the water your argument that all non-UK are doing low paid jobs the UK people don't want .

except it doesn't really, because its so extreme as to be silly, and my argument was originally with your misuse of the figures which you need to show that

1) That there were UK born workers willing and able to fill those jobs.

as I originally said and which you seem to have missed the 'able' bit from. Yep, sure most people may want to be football manager, doesn't mean they are able to do it though.

 

[whiteflyer]

except it doesn't really, because its so extreme as to be silly, and my argument was originally with your misuse of the figures which you need to show that



as I originally said and which you seem to have missed the 'able' bit from. Yep, sure most people may want to be football manager, doesn't mean they are able to do it though.

Were is my miss use of the figures

The data show that the number of jobs in the UK has risen by 2.12 million since the first quarter of 1997. At the same time, the number of UK-born people in work has risen by 385,000, and the number of non-UK born in work has risen by 1.72m.

So, roughly speaking, you can say 81% of net jobs created in the UK since 1997 have gone to people who were not born in the UK.

The number of the non-UK born, working age population has risen by 2.4 million too, so lets minus those non-UK born in worker of 1.72m giving us 680,000 non-UK born, working age people who are NOT supporting themselves with jobs.

Now some non-UK born could of course be UK citizens born overseas.

There is no mention at all about the willingness or ability of UK workers to do the jobs, and the last part about the 680K is also true, as stated they are NOT supporting themselves with jobs.

Have these jobs gone to people born in the UK, well the answer is NO, could they have, well your making the assumption that no UK people were able or willing to do the jobs.

The 680K are not working so the they are NOT supporting themselves with jobs, is also true, of course the partner of the people could be supporting them from the salary the ultra low paid job that people keep saying these people are doing.


Your theory seems to be that the non-UK born workers are only doing 2 types of jobs, the very low paid ones that we don't want to do and the very high skilled jobs that we do not have the ability to do. You don't seem to be willing to consider there is a selection of jobs that we can and do want.

 

[boyfalldown]

Were is my miss use of the figures


There is no mention at all about the willingness or ability of UK workers to do the jobs, and the last part about the 680K is also true, as stated they are NOT supporting themselves with jobs.

Have these jobs gone to people born in the UK, well the answer is NO, could they have, well your making the assumption that no UK people were able or willing to do the jobs.

The 680K are not working so the they are NOT supporting themselves with jobs, is also true, of course the partner of the people could be supporting them from the salary the ultra low paid job that people keep saying these people are doing.

er no actually, your implication was that those jobs could have gone to UK workers. Without any form of context then its just a meaningless figure with no relevance to anything. Thats where your mis use of figures come in.

Theres loads of way of interpreting it, all I'm doing is putting a different spin on it -which you seem to have trouble grasping.

Your theory seems to be that the non-UK born workers are only doing 2 types of jobs, the very low paid ones that we don't want to do and the very high skilled jobs that we do not have the ability to do. You don't seem to be willing to consider there is a selection of jobs that we can and do want.

nope - didn't say anything of the sort. You gave the rather silly examples of a bunch of premiership managers and the CEO of a bank. High flying jobs wouldn't you say

 

[ding76uk]

I'm time served and did a full apprenticeship. I worked 40 hours a week PLUS night school, I did this for 47 weeks a year for 3 years on very low paid. I did this to enable me to earn more money later in life as a skilled craftsman. I did not get anything from the tax paying public and why should students.

I firmly believe the fees to be a good idea, and to some extent think they should be paying earlier. I would hope that by having to pay to go to uni, student will be more selective in the subjects taken.

Where can you do an apprenticeship as a doctor, or head of banking or all the other high flyer jobs you mention?

The problem is by discouraging students from attending uni then they are left in a very tight job Market claiming benefits if they do not get s job.

We should offer way more apprenticeships too to let those non academics learn. But that said by your logic employers should foot the bill for it all. Many will then not take them on as no financial benefit to the company.

It all seems to be a race too see who can have it worse than the other.

Well my pension is **** so everyone else's should be worse. As has been said it is not just teachers who were on strike. They are just the group it has been chosen to pick on.

 

[tiler65]

Where can you do an apprenticeship as a doctor, or head of banking or all the other high flyer jobs you mention?

Medical school, law school ---- just another name for an apprenticeship.

Why should the Tax payer foot the bill if it is something they want to do.

Then they do low paid jobs as interns etc. and work their way up.

As a mature student, if I wanted to become a teacher, do you think I should get all my training for free?

I will get the door for you Mr Hardacre.

 

[tijuana taxi]

As a mature student, if I wanted to become a teacher, do you think I should get all my training for free?

You probably would or near as damn it, student loan which you may or may not ever pay back, student grant and other benefits such as council tax reduction

Considered leaving my job of 36 years taking my pension early (with reduction) to do a degree and looked into all the above financial points

 

[ding76uk]

Medical school, law school ---- just another name for an apprenticeship.

Why should the Tax payer foot the bill if it is something they want to do.

Then they do low paid jobs as interns etc. and work their way up.

As a mature student, if I wanted to become a teacher, do you think I should get all my training for free?

I will get the door for you Mr Hardacre.

Actually as a mature student you get your fees paid for you, so your point is moot.

If there is a shortage in any industry then there should be incentives to do so. Low on UK doctors, incentives for the best to train would help.

Want more teachers, pay their university education.

If we need people in any sector and have no skills then why not pay for people to be trained in that area?

Surely you bemoan immigrant labour yet offer no way for those positions to be filled in this country by offering incentives then you are creating more problems?

If we don't put people in training then we pay them jobseekers etc. Paying people to search for work that is not there in a lot of cases is pointless.

Why not pay them to train in something where there is a skills shortage, or at least a skillset of some sort to enable them to find meaningful work? Forcing people into work will just result in them working so poorly they get laid off again and the cycle repeats.

Your attitude is the one of screw everyone else I'm alright. Which is fine until YOU need help or support or whatever, then it becomes the be all and end all.

To be honest the cycle with education will be in terms of a lot of teachers are due to retire in the next 5 years, creating a teaching shortage and then everything will be thrown at it again to get people to teach. When in reality it would be best to spend the money on encouraging a continuos flow of people into the profession by well planned incentives such as lower univeristy fees for key places etc. Instead we get spur of the moment "new" solutions that cost way more to implement than it would to have worked a consistent and constant plan.

Crisis management rather than forward planning is what this country is seemingly best at these days.

 

[Matt]

erm...you dont get your fees paid for you as a mature student, i wanted to do an MSc and couldnt as it would have cost £2500..if i quite my job i still cant get it free..

i think another question that has gone unanswered is WHY they were striking when negotiations are still on, and if the strike had so much support, why did other teaching unions not call their members out to support it?

I dont agree with striking in general, it simply serves to annoy the people who are not involved, 2 kids off school for the day, so someone has to look after them, thats not exactly going to make me sympathetic. I wonder what soldiers thought of it all?

 

[Superewza]

I dont agree with striking in general, it simply serves to annoy the people who are not involved, 2 kids off school for the day, so someone has to look after them, thats not exactly going to make me sympathetic. I wonder what soldiers thought of it all?

So what alternative do you propose? Yes, trade unionism has taken a turn for the worse of late but without it we'd all still be slaving away for most of the day just to earn a few measly coins with which we could hope to buy some food.

I strongly suggest you watch the film Comrades (1986), and/or read the book The Ragged Trousered Philanthropists if you're having trouble understanding why such measures are necessary.

As for whoever was blaming immigration, i think this extract for the Monster Raving Loony Party's 2010 manifesto says it all really:

Regarding Immigration... any Person who can prove that they or their descendants emigrated to the U.K before 55 A.D can stay. All the others will be repatriated to their original country (well we have to draw the line somewhere).

 

[tiler65]

Actually as a mature student you get your fees paid for you, so your point is moot.

If there is a shortage in any industry then there should be incentives to do so. Low on UK doctors, incentives for the best to train would help.

Want more teachers, pay their university education.

If we need people in any sector and have no skills then why not pay for people to be trained in that area?

Surely you bemoan immigrant labour yet offer no way for those positions to be filled in this country by offering incentives then you are creating more problems?

If we don't put people in training then we pay them jobseekers etc. Paying people to search for work that is not there in a lot of cases is pointless.

Why not pay them to train in something where there is a skills shortage, or at least a skillset of some sort to enable them to find meaningful work? Forcing people into work will just result in them working so poorly they get laid off again and the cycle repeats.

Your attitude is the one of screw everyone else I'm alright. Which is fine until YOU need help or support or whatever, then it becomes the be all and end all.

To be honest the cycle with education will be in terms of a lot of teachers are due to retire in the next 5 years, creating a teaching shortage and then everything will be thrown at it again to get people to teach. When in reality it would be best to spend the money on encouraging a continuos flow of people into the profession by well planned incentives such as lower univeristy fees for key places etc. Instead we get spur of the moment "new" solutions that cost way more to implement than it would to have worked a consistent and constant plan.

Crisis management rather than forward planning is what this country is seemingly best at these days.

You are quite wrong again Carl.

What you think is that you should get something for nothing and that is why we are in this mess now.

Too many students, too much higher education, too many younger people not prepared to 'work' for a living.

I know that with the economy as it is there are not many jobs especially in manufacturing but if more kids would have say gone to nurse training or wanted to be in the building trade we would not need so many immigrant workers to do those jobs.

I am appalled at the amount of kids going to 'Uni', this used to be for those that earned it or at least could afford it and the country used to work quite well in those days.

 

[fracster]

I am appalled at the amount of kids going to 'Uni', this used to be for those that earned it or at least could afford it and the country used to work quite well in those days.

You forgot to include the amount of students doing worthless,meaningless and useless "degrees" as well. That really vexes me.....:bang:

 

[CT]

I am appalled at the amount of kids going to 'Uni', this used to be for those that earned it or at least could afford it and the country used to work quite well in those days.

That's absolutely true - it used to be only the really outstanding pupils that made it to university - unless daddy was very very rich.

 

[Matt]

So what alternative do you propose? Yes, trade unionism has taken a turn for the worse of late but without it we'd all still be slaving away for most of the day just to earn a few measly coins with which we could hope to buy some food.

I strongly suggest you watch the film Comrades (1986), and/or read the book The Ragged Trousered Philanthropists if you're having trouble understanding why such measures are necessary.

As for whoever was blaming immigration, i think this extract for the Monster Raving Loony Party's 2010 manifesto says it all really:

Such measures might be necessary if the government said 'new rules starting now' but they haven't, they've made proposals that are to be discussed. Private pension funds didn't have the luxury of negotiation when Gordon raided that kitty. The unions are crying foul and taking their ball away, if I was on the other side of the table to that attitude then I'd take a fairly dim view going in to negotiations. The simple fact is that the country cannot afford to pay the pensions in the time and at the value that are currently in the system. Take a look at Greece and think again about the whole country and where it's going.

 

[Superewza]

Such measures might be necessary if the government said 'new rules starting now' but they haven't, they've made proposals that are to be discussed. Private pension funds didn't have the luxury of negotiation when Gordon raided that kitty. The unions are crying foul and taking their ball away, if I was on the other side of the table to that attitude then I'd take a fairly dim view going in to negotiations. The simple fact is that the country cannot afford to pay the pensions in the time and at the value that are currently in the system. Take a look at Greece and think again about the whole country and where it's going.

Greece is in a position to default though, it's these completely unfair austerity measures they're being forced to accept just to keep it going long enough for all the important people to get their money out of the greek economy. If i had a pound for every time i've heard the BBC say "They must accept these austerity measures." i'd be able to bail them out myself.

It's not a simple fact that the country can't afford to pay what it agreed to pay, it's a simple fact that the Tories are trying to do what they always do and do what they can to do away with the public sector altogether. We don't particularly have to 'pay back' our 'debts' anyway. But times have changed and the powers that be have enough control such that we have no real voice against it, no respectable opposition or somebody intelligent enough to explain why the cuts aren't needed. No Michael Foot, no Jimmy Reid. And the only thing we can do about it is hope that they push their luck to far.

Anyway - you said you had a dim view of striking in general, you still haven't put forward an alternative*?

*not striking is not a viable alternative

 

[ding76uk]

I am appalled at the amount of kids going to 'Uni', this used to be for those that earned it or at least could afford it and the country used to work quite well in those days.

And everyone else knew there was was not to have aspirations, and work in a menial job.

Why should people want a decent pension, or to work anything other than a menial job if they were not born into money?

 

[Samphire]

Carl & Wendy, instead of contributing to this fine dibate, shudnt you bofe be marking buks?

I was writing my 6th form UCAS references

 

[Samphire]

You probably would or near as damn it, student loan which you may or may not ever pay back, student grant and other benefits such as council tax reduction

Considered leaving my job of 36 years taking my pension early (with reduction) to do a degree and looked into all the above financial points

Your wrong, I did uni as a mature student, joined the first year it turned to loans had to pay it all ... no grants etc ... do I regret it nope .. paid my final paymemt on my student loan month before last

 

[ding76uk]

Too many students, too much higher education, too many younger people not prepared to 'work' for a living.
.

Unemployment is on the rise in case you haven't noticed. Jobs are being shed at an alarming rate, companies going but all over the place. 0% growth, interest rate set to stay at 0.5 until the end of next year at least. Disposable income largest drop since 1977.

Looking to keep everyone in work for 2 more years is also going to affect the job market in a negative way as positions will not open up as quickly.

These cuts certainly have helped so far. How do you suggest young people who we will price out of higher education (who wants them to go anyways, lazy oafs), what will they do. End up on the dole, which costs the taxpayer money.

Just because you stop then going to university does not mean that money will not be contributed to them via your taxes.

Lastly have you been in the job market recently. Most jobs beyond menial labour require a degree. But of course, they should know there place and work a menial job that allows them to live below the poverty line, just so your precious taxes don't go to them.

 

[ding76uk]

erm...you dont get your fees paid for you as a mature student, i wanted to do an MSc and couldnt as it would have cost £2500..if i quite my job i still cant get it free..

I stand corrected on that.

 

[Matt]

Unemployment is on the rise in case you haven't noticed. Jobs are being shed at an alarming rate, companies going but all over the place. 0% growth, interest rate set to stay at 0.5 until the end of next year at least. Disposable income largest drop since 1977.

Looking to keep everyone in work for 2 more years is also going to affect the job market in a negative way as positions will not open up as quickly.

These cuts certainly have helped so far. How do you suggest young people who we will price out of higher education (who wants them to go anyways, lazy oafs), what will they do. End up on the dole, which costs the taxpayer money.

Just because you stop then going to university does not mean that money will not be contributed to them via your taxes.

Lastly have you been in the job market recently. Most jobs beyond menial labour require a degree. But of course, they should know there place and work a menial job that allows them to live below the poverty line, just so your precious taxes don't go to them.

so if we leave the pensions as they are, how will it be possible to pay them with all the above problems?
Im not sure where people are being stopped from going to uni, it just costs more now. as a company we employ a graduate, hes got a degree in social anthropology. Not sure what that is though...

 

[tijuana taxi]

Your wrong, I did uni as a mature student, joined the first year it turned to loans had to pay it all ... no grants etc ... do I regret it nope .. paid my final paymemt on my student loan month before last

Why am I wrong? typical attitude from a teacher, please try to remember you are talking to adults not children.

I talked to the student finance advisor who told me that pension is not counted as earnings and I would get the full grant and loan. At my age I would probably never pay back the full amount and might not pay anything if I didn't earn above a certain figure

Wasn't discussing your particular case and I stated the current position, also have some insight with my daughter entering her final year of a degree

Hope you mark your pupils work a bit more accurately and speak to them somewhat more politely too

 

[whiteflyer]

Unemployment is on the rise in case you haven't noticed.

As a teacher I would have thought you would have done a tiny bit of checking before coming on here and posting

The unemployment rate for the three months to April 2011 was 7.7 per cent of the economically active population, down 0.3 on the quarter. The total number of unemployed people fell by 88,000 over the quarter to reach 2.43 million. This is the largest quarterly fall in unemployment since the three months to August 2000

Lastly have you been in the job market recently. Most jobs beyond menial labour require a degree. But of course, they should know there place and work a menial job that allows them to live below the poverty line, just so your precious taxes don't go to them.

Yes and if we send ALL children to Uni to get a very soft degree than ALL jobs will need a degree. As more and more get any form of qualification be that GCSE's , A Levels or degrees then more employers will expect staff to have qualification. Go back to Victorian times and those darm employers are now starting to want all new staff to be able to read and write, it just outrageous.

 

[Samphire]

Why am I wrong? typical attitude from a teacher, please try to remember you are talking to adults not children.

I talked to the student finance advisor who told me that pension is not counted as earnings and I would get the full grant and loan. At my age I would probably never pay back the full amount and might not pay anything if I didn't earn above a certain figure

Wasn't discussing your particular case and I stated the current position, also have some insight with my daughter entering her final year of a degree

Hope you mark your pupils work a bit more accurately and speak to them somewhat more politely too

I don't think I was rude and I am very polite when talking to students and adults I am also considerate when marking my students work thank you for your concern.

There is no grant to the best of my knowledge (though I am up for being corrected on this)- your starting wage would be in line with making payments.

I shall not ask your age, but if your near to retirement, by the time you have the degree and find someone to employ you, you may not pay back all of your loan.

My insite comes from my own experience and one of my daughter's uni experience. I do thank you for correcting me though and wish you best of luck with your degree and teaching career.

I would offer you a hand down off your high horse, but my typical teacher attitude has made me withdraw my offer

 

[DemiLion]

As a mature student, if I wanted to become a teacher, do you think I should get all my training for free?

You probably would or near as damn it, student loan which you may or may not ever pay back, student grant and other benefits such as council tax reduction

Considered leaving my job of 36 years taking my pension early (with reduction) to do a degree and looked into all the above financial points

Your wrong, I did uni as a mature student, joined the first year it turned to loans had to pay it all ... no grants etc ... do I regret it nope .. paid my final paymemt on my student loan month before last

Why am I wrong? typical attitude from a teacher, please try to remember you are talking to adults not children.

I talked to the student finance advisor who told me that pension is not counted as earnings and I would get the full grant and loan. At my age I would probably never pay back the full amount and might not pay anything if I didn't earn above a certain figure

Wasn't discussing your particular case and I stated the current position, also have some insight with my daughter entering her final year of a degree

Hope you mark your pupils work a bit more accurately and speak to them somewhat more politely too

Do you know Tiler's age? I'm guessing that the '65' implies 1965; ie 46.

If that's so, then Wendy is absolutely right and he will end up paying back almost all, if not all, of his fees covered by a student loan.

I'd say that the teacher was more accurate than you in this case!

BTW I didn't think that you could take out a student loan if you didn't have enough time left of your working life to repay it? Happy to be proved wrong!

 

[tijuana taxi]

Sorry to disagree but to just say your wrong isn't very polite, perhaps something like I think you may be incorrect is a bit more pleasant

This explains the grantshttp://www.direct.gov.uk/en/EducationAndLearning/UniversityAndHigherEducation/StudentFinance/Gettingstarted/DG_171572

My insite comes from my own experience and one of my daughter's uni experience

I actually wrote

also have some insight with my daughter entering her final year of a degree

I didn't think that you could take out a student loan if you didn't have enough time left of your working life to repay it? Happy to be proved wrong!

I'm 52 and there was no problem with regard to the amount of my working life that was left, plenty of mature students that age and above receiving loans.

Copied from a gov.uk website

To qualify for a Student Loan to help with accommodation and living costs (called the ‘Student Loan for Maintenance&#8217, you need to be aged under 60 when you start your course.

There’s no upper age limit on grants and the Student Loan for Tuition Fees.

 

[Matt]

Greece is in a position to default though, it's these completely unfair austerity measures they're being forced to accept just to keep it going long enough for all the important people to get their money out of the greek economy. If i had a pound for every time i've heard the BBC say "They must accept these austerity measures." i'd be able to bail them out myself.

It's not a simple fact that the country can't afford to pay what it agreed to pay, it's a simple fact that the Tories are trying to do what they always do and do what they can to do away with the public sector altogether. We don't particularly have to 'pay back' our 'debts' anyway. But times have changed and the powers that be have enough control such that we have no real voice against it, no respectable opposition or somebody intelligent enough to explain why the cuts aren't needed. No Michael Foot, no Jimmy Reid. And the only thing we can do about it is hope that they push their luck to far.

Anyway - you said you had a dim view of striking in general, you still haven't put forward an alternative*?

*not striking is not a viable alternative

an alternative to striking? talking is a good starting point. or if you dont like it, find another job, that seems to work for the majority of private sector workers.

lets not bring the tories into this though please, or the thread will be closed, this is about if we agree or not with strike action taken. if it gets too political it gets too heated.

if greece default on their loans, the euro goes tits up and takes a few of us with it, along with another credit crunch coming about. we cant be flippant about money borrowed, it all needs to be paid back.

 

[Matt]

also on the point of cuts not being needed, do you know what the national debt level is? what happens when the IMF downgrade the countries credit rating? what that does to the value of an already weak currency?

 

[DemiLion]

I'm 52 and there was no problem with regard to the amount of my working life that was left, plenty of mature students that age and above receiving loans.

Copied from a gov.uk website
etc

Gotcha. Thanks for that.

Unfortunately the course that I'm doing is classed as commercial, so I've got no chance of funding, let alone a student loan. In fact I'm in the middle of flogging my flat to finance part of it!

 

[Superewza]

an alternative to striking? talking is a good starting point. or if you dont like it, find another job, that seems to work for the majority of private sector workers.

lets not bring the tories into this though please, or the thread will be closed, this is about if we agree or not with strike action taken. if it gets too political it gets too heated.

if greece default on their loans, the euro goes tits up and takes a few of us with it, along with another credit crunch coming about. we cant be flippant about money borrowed, it all needs to be paid back.

Fair enough.

The thing is, getting round a table and negotiating implies that both sides have something to negotiate. Take away the right to strike and it turns into a situation where the employer says "Right lads, you're going to be working for this long earning this much and if you don't like it you're sacked." And of course you accept it because otherwise you starve. The ability to take away your labour is the bargaining chip, and even then if it isn't done universally, throughout your whole workplace, industry or union then it doesn't work and you just loose your job. And 'finding another job' implies that there is a better job, or an employer that doesn't want to squeeze you for every last drop of worth in your body - but that just isn't the case. And it's not their fault that they're so greedy, it's the system's. Almost anyone in their position would do the same. If one employer realizes they can get away with something then the rest will soon follow, you have to draw the line somewhere.

Most of the money the UK owes is owed to a handful of billionaires, who will be rich as **** until the day they day no matter what happens. Morally speaking, you can't tell me we need to suffer and destroy centuries worth of built up services to give these people yet more of our hard earned surplus value

 

[DemiLion]

...lets not bring the tories into this though please, or the thread will be closed...

Please Sir, can I have a go about Messrs Blair and Brown instead Sir? They were very nasty to photographers as well Sir?




tbh This thread has been much better tempered than the one about the student's protest earlier in the year, and much more informative as well in some respects.

 

[Samphire]

Sorry to disagree but to just say your wrong isn't very polite, perhaps something like I think you may be incorrect is a bit more pleasant

I actually wrote


I'm 52 and there was no problem with regard to the amount of my working life that was left, plenty of mature students that age and above receiving loans.

Copied from a gov.uk website

It is ok to disagree, it's how discussions start

Ohh I made a spelling mistake ... bad teacher *chuckling*

As long as you can taking a bashing for being a teacher I would recommend it