Todays teachers strike

[Mickwreay]

Funny thing is when all this happened to me those public sector workers and their unions said b****r all, it was just hard luck, don't like now the shoe is on the other foot.

If fact some union leaders at the time said Brown had not gone far enough and should have taken MORE out of private pensions.

Are the public sectors asking you to support them? They are simply venting their frustration at the proposed cuts :shrug:

 

[Lynton]

will confess to not reading the above 120+ posts, but am not a fan of striking etc. AFAIK teachers get a pretty reasonable deal, and if you don't like the condition's don't do the job. That goes for all the other public sector workers. If you don't like it, don't do it.

Yes, what the government has done is fairly crap, but that has been happening in the private sector for years. The bottom line is, not enough money going into the pension pots for many many reasons.... the economy is cracking and creaking for many reasons, and action needs to be taken, for many reasons.

Without crossing the line into politics, current administration is trying to recoup the overexpenditure of the last 15 or so years, and anything they do will be unpopular. If you think it's bad here, look across to Greece, where not been controlled for much longer. When was the last time a country was made bankrupt?

 

[cambsno]

Those for the strike are missing a huge point. The fact is we can't afford to keep paying pensions and people need to accept they will need to work longer. Even retiring at 68 you could easily still be claiming in 25 years time. If things don't change something will need to give...less spending on kids education, hospitals and even more cuts.

 

[Samphire]

Long Hours school starts @ 9 finishes at 3.00
2 x 20 min breaks + 1 hr dinner
Clean up classroom tables (The caretaker cleans the floors.)
leave school premises at 4
home for 5
relax have tea
mark a few books.
most primary classes have classroom assistants who help the teachers prepare the lessons.
about 4 in-service days a year
wont mention the holidays they have.

Like I said secondary teachers work hard.

In at 8a.m check email for any communication that is needed.
Meet tutors 8.30.
8.40 - 9 get through as much of tutor programme as possible - call parents of absent students.
9 - 10 ... teach 32 students
10-11 teach 32 more students

30 mins break - talk to students about any troubles they are having and chat to your kids that come and sit with you

11.30 - 12.30 .. teach
12.30 - 1.30 teach

1.30 - 2pm lunch .. with students

2-3 teach - up to 32 students

3pm till hometime try to mark at least two sets of books (approx 62) with critic and how they can improve .. while also attending any meetings .. taking your turn on detention duty .. calling parents etc ...

3 non contacts per week in which to plan your lessons ..

take work home .. plan lessons at home ... have you any idea how long it takes to plan a lesson that is to last 60 min's? including directing your TA if your lucky to have one and differenciating between students setting ALF tasks etc ...

And no I am not complaining because I choose to teach and love to teach .. just showing fantasy school v reality school.

 

[Samphire]

Your son does not an example make. Sorry but your personal opinion is no basis for broad generalisations.

How do you classify "not well taught"? Is it he didn't pass his 11 plus or that he couldn't read or write very well?

 

[ding76uk]

In at 8a.m check email for any communication that is needed.
Meet tutors 8.30.
8.40 - 9 get through as much of tutor programme as possible - call parents of absent students.
9 - 10 ... teach 32 students
10-11 teach 32 more students

30 mins break - talk to students about any troubles they are having and chat to your kids that come and sit with you

11.30 - 12.30 .. teach
12.30 - 1.30 teach

1.30 - 2pm lunch .. with students

2-3 teach - up to 32 students

3pm till hometime try to mark at least two sets of books (approx 62) with critic and how they can improve .. while also attending any meetings .. taking your turn on detention duty .. calling parents etc ...

3 non contacts per week in which to plan your lessons ..

take work home .. plan lessons at home ... have you any idea how long it takes to plan a lesson that is to last 60 min's? including directing your TA if your lucky to have one and differenciating between students setting ALF tasks etc ...

And no I am not complaining because I choose to teach and love to teach .. just showing fantasy school v reality school.

What it isn't like that Jamie Oliver show,

 

[Samphire]

What it isn't like that Jamie Oliver show,

Sucks not to be the Jamie Oliver show *deep sigh*

 

[Mickwreay]

Wendy,

The problem is, many people have no interest in what others do!
It's much easier to assume they know ;-)

Keep up the good work.

Mick

 

[DemiLion]

Primary Teachers easiest job in the world and cant get that right for when the children go to secondary school.

Long Hours school starts @ 9 finishes at 3.00
2 x 20 min breaks + 1 hr dinner
Clean up classroom tables (The caretaker cleans the floors.)
leave school premises at 4
home for 5
relax have tea
mark a few books.
most primary classes have classroom assistants who help the teachers prepare the lessons.
about 4 in-service days a year
wont mention the holidays they have.

Like I said secondary teachers work hard.

Fortunately for you I've been asked to be a bit fluffier in my posting, otherwise I'd say exactly what I thought about those comments. Wendy has summed up an average, if not lightweight day quite nicely for you though.


.... .... ....

As to whether the public sector workers (it wasn't just teachers remember) should have gone on strike however, I'm still rather undecided.

Traditionally their wages have always been lower than the private sector and an enhanced pension scheme was always considered one of the balancing factors in deciding which to opt for. In that respect I think that they (the public sector as a whole) are somewhat justified in complaining.

There's some rather strange squabbling going on in this thread between the various different branches of the public service sector. Let's face it, everybody is going to end up in the same boat in the very near future, and that's if they haven't had their pension schemes altered already; the Armed Forces had theirs forcibly changed in 2005, not that they were in a position to complain about it much.

So do I think that they were justified in complaining? In all probability the answer is yes; and if we were all honest anyone would be furious about having their pension buggered about with.

Do I think that they were justified in striking? Quite frankly in my eyes that wasn't a strike, it was a one day stoppage with a protest march thrown in for good measure. Enough to show extreme grievance, whilst minimising the knock on effect on the rest of the country. Even the most militant and entrenched of unions such as the RMT can't cobble a proper strike together anymore because their membership just won't vote for it.

The simple fact is that the last government motored up the creek, sold off the outboard, sails and paddles and then nicked the only life-raft for themselves, before swanning off into the sunset leaving the current incumbents to pick up the pieces. The end result is that we are going to see a lot more of this sort of protest as the cuts bite deeper.

It's still not as bad a the last two years of the Callaghan administration, or even the early eighties, and when you consider the protests and riots that have taken place in France, Spain, Portugal and Greece it sometimes makes you wonder what we are really complaining about.

I may not fully agree with the day of action, but it's a very small price to pay for living in a democracy where the right to have your voice heard still exists.

 

[Superewza]

Union leaders today are corrupt, not up to the job, and don't represent their members. They either don't do anything and hope nobody notices or do something in a way that isn't at all effective.

But yes, if your union says strike then you strike. The whole system doesn't work otherwise - it's the common man's only defence from sheer exploitation until there's some revolutionary changes in the world, and as such there a few creatures to roam the Earth that are worse than the scab.

Needless to say, the government needs to realize that it can't go changing agreed contracts willy nilly, maybe they can change it for newcomers, so at least they know what they're in for, but legally binding contracts that both parties had signed and agreed to?

 

[tijuana taxi]

Withdrawing your labour is a last resort and not a pleasant experience, wonder how many people here have actually been on strike?

I was out for three weeks in the eighties to defend my job against worsening conditions, but some things are fighting for. Wish we had made a stand last year when the ruthless private company I work for destroyed the terms and conditions it had taken years to build or when our final salary pension was stopped

Some very selfish views expressed here and remember what you lose now will affect your children and future generations of workers

 

[lizzy23]

Pension, what pension, i can't afford to pay in to a pension, as for hours, private sector just this week, in work at 8, left at 7.30, london yesterday to meet a customer, today in for 7.30 for a customer visit, weekends and overtime are not optional they're compulsory, and 25 days holiday a year, what do i do, i'm a quality manager for a Food manufacturer, just as qualified as a teacher, making sure that the food everyone eats doesn't poison them, do i think i should strike, no its what i signed up for and i accept it, the public sector needs to catch up, times have changed, and the country is in a mess, to help they need to change too.

 

[ding76uk]

It is unfortunate the way this whole thing has been pitched as public vs private by the government. Public sector pay taxes too, so we too contribute to the shortfalls with our own taxes too.

What it seems to be is "My pension is ****, yours should be too" We should be fighting for all pensions to be as good if not better than the public sector, not everything should be as bad as each other.

Just seen the news, today it's Immigration to blame for unemployment in young people. Really. There are few jobs out there, do we really think that immigration is the only reason and will be the way everything gets changed.

 

[tijuana taxi]

What it seems to be is "My pension is ****, yours should be too"

Totally agree, my final salary pension was frozen as of March 2009, but good luck to anyone who has retained theirs, seems crazy to seek the lowest common denominator

 

[whiteflyer]

Public sector pay taxes too, so we too contribute to the shortfalls with our own taxes too.

Yes, but you don't fund the shortfall in our pension funds as we do yours, a major difference. Hypothetically if we did not fund your shortfall we could pay less tax and thus be able to pay more into our pensions, of course we are not going to convince our employer to pay 14% it too.

Just seen the news, today it's Immigration to blame for unemployment in young people. Really. There are few jobs out there, do we really think that immigration is the only reason and will be the way everything gets changed.

YES REALLY FACT

The data show that the number of jobs in the UK has risen by 2.12 million since the first quarter of 1997. At the same time, the number of UK-born people in work has risen by 385,000, and the number of non-UK born in work has risen by 1.72m.

So, roughly speaking, you can say 81% of net jobs created in the UK since 1997 have gone to people who were not born in the UK.

The number of the non-UK born, working age population has risen by 2.4 million too, so lets minus those non-UK born in worker of 1.72m giving us 680,000 non-UK born, working age people who are NOT supporting themselves with jobs.

Now some non-UK born could of course be UK citizens born overseas.

 

[tijuana taxi]

So, roughly speaking, you can say 81% of net jobs created in the UK since 1997 have gone to people who were not born in the UK

Bet all the youngsters with their degrees or armful of GCSE's would have just been fighting one another for most of those jobs

 

[nilagin]

Union leaders today are corrupt, not up to the job, and don't represent their members. They either don't do anything and hope nobody notices or do something in a way that isn't at all effective.

But yes, if your union says strike then you strike. The whole system doesn't work otherwise - it's the common man's only defence from sheer exploitation until there's some revolutionary changes in the world, and as such there a few creatures to roam the Earth that are worse than the scab.

Needless to say, the government needs to realize that it can't go changing agreed contracts willy nilly, maybe they can change it for newcomers, so at least they know what they're in for, but legally binding contracts that both parties had signed and agreed to?

My union (Unite) is certainly corrupt. As I wrote in another thread, they sold us down the river by agreeing to all future rises in our company pension being at CPI instead of RPI which is how it had always been. My employer made an offer of several lump sum payments over the next few years and the 6 out of 7 convenors agreed to it without balloting one single member. They even accepted the offer behind our plant convenors back on his behalf as he was the only convenor opposed to the offer and reduction, we were the only part of the workforce spread over several locations, who had actually been informed of what was going on. These other convenors had misinformed their respective members that amends to loss of pension would be made in the next pay talks, something which our employer has denied will take place and that the payments that we are recieving, first was this week, was the final offer.

Unions are not allowed to tell their members to strike. A decision to strike must come from the workers themselves and then must be decided by a proper ballot, not a show of hands where people can feel intimidated into voting opposite to the way they would like to.

I make contributions towards my company pension and I believe my employer contributes twice that amount. Am I right in assuming public sector workers make no contribution and it all comes out of our taxes or NI. If that's so, why should I have to pay more in taxes to pay for any shortfall in their pension? I'm sorry but contribute yourself other than the small amount your already contributing through your taxes and NI.

 

[boyfalldown]

Yes, but you don't fund the shortfall in our pension funds as we do yours, a major difference. Hypothetically if we did not fund your shortfall we could pay less tax and thus be able to pay more into our pensions, of course we are not going to convince our employer to pay 14% it too.

its not really relevant though - you could make the argument that we pay 100% of public sector salaries from taxes, and if we stopped funding that then you'd pay even less tax. It seems a bit a waste of time argument, without getting to far into politics we shouldn't be manoeuvred by the current gover/t into this degree of infighting etc.

YES REALLY FACT

The data show that the number of jobs in the UK has risen by 2.12 million since the first quarter of 1997. At the same time, the number of UK-born people in work has risen by 385,000, and the number of non-UK born in work has risen by 1.72m.

So, roughly speaking, you can say 81% of net jobs created in the UK since 1997 have gone to people who were not born in the UK.

The number of the non-UK born, working age population has risen by 2.4 million too, so lets minus those non-UK born in worker of 1.72m giving us 680,000 non-UK born, working age people who are NOT supporting themselves with jobs.

Now some non-UK born could of course be UK citizens born overseas.

no - not really fact, just a very selective look at the figures. Your arguments assume two things that the figures presented don't support.

1) That there were UK born workers willing and able to fill those jobs.

2) That the non-self supporting 680,000 aren't being supported some other way, ie - as a wife of a worked for example, and are being supportd by the state in some way.

 

[whiteflyer]

Bet all the youngsters with their degrees or armful of GCSE's would have just been fighting one another for most of those jobs

If you believe that all non-UK born worker are doing ultra low paid jobs that nobody wants then your living in f***ing cloud cuckoo land.

 

[boyfalldown]

If you believe that all non-UK born worker are doing ultra low paid jobs that nobody wants then your living in f***ing cloud cuckoo land.

I don't, but are here enough UK born workers capable of doing those jobs?

 

[tijuana taxi]

If you believe that all non-UK born worker are doing ultra low paid jobs that nobody wants then your living in f***ing cloud cuckoo land

Not a very eloquent reply, but if there were so many willing UK workers why were those vacancies not filled. Historically immigrant labour has been utilised for many of the more low paid menial tasks and no doubt always will be

 

[ding76uk]

If you believe that all non-UK born worker are doing ultra low paid jobs that nobody wants then your living in f***ing cloud cuckoo land.

No, but a lot of doctors in my area are non UK born. If they didn't do the work then there would not be any doctors in my area due to a lot of people not wanting to move here, and especially doctors, because there is little prospect of career furthering.

What do you suggest we do? I know for a fact some local employers who would prefer to take on British workers, but there were not any who applied for jobs with the relevant skill set needed. How do you then not give the job to someone with the skills but happens not to be born in the UK?

 

[acetone]

Why have UK people not got the skills.

Are you saying that education is this country is so poor that we have to go elsewhere for workers. If that's the case then maybe all the teachers are not really doing the great job they like to tell us all they are doing.

 

[ANDYHOP]

In at 8a.m check email for any communication that is needed.
Meet tutors 8.30.
8.40 - 9 get through as much of tutor programme as possible - call parents of absent students.
9 - 10 ... teach 32 students
10-11 teach 32 more students

30 mins break - talk to students about any troubles they are having and chat to your kids that come and sit with you

11.30 - 12.30 .. teach
12.30 - 1.30 teach

1.30 - 2pm lunch .. with students

2-3 teach - up to 32 students

3pm till hometime try to mark at least two sets of books (approx 62) with critic and how they can improve .. while also attending any meetings .. taking your turn on detention duty .. calling parents etc ...

3 non contacts per week in which to plan your lessons ..

take work home .. plan lessons at home ... have you any idea how long it takes to plan a lesson that is to last 60 min's? including directing your TA if your lucky to have one and differenciating between students setting ALF tasks etc ...

And no I am not complaining because I choose to teach and love to teach .. just showing fantasy school v reality school.

Are you a primary teacher or secondary.

The times I quoted are what the teachers worked at my sons primary school I know I worked there.

 

[Samphire]

Are you a primary teacher or secondary.

The times I quoted are what the teachers worked at my sons primary school I know I worked there.

I am secondary .... the point is primary work the same and those poor sods have to know ALL of the curriculum. Did you ever think about how the lessons came about, how long it takes to write a report for example .. there is no report fairy that drops it on your desk for you ...

If you base your knowledge and understanding on one experience in life then I urge you to take of the blinkers and have a real look out there.

On a lighter note .. do you sit under bridges and have a tuft of purple hair? ... if not that wipes out my theory of you being a troll and being here to reel us in

 

[ANDYHOP]

I am secondary .... the point is primary work the same and those poor sods have to know ALL of the curriculum. Did you ever think about how the lessons came about, how long it takes to write a report for example .. there is no report fairy that drops it on your desk for you ...

If you base your knowledge and understanding on one experience in life then I urge you to take of the blinkers and have a real look out there.

On a lighter note .. do you sit under bridges and have a tuft of purple hair? ... if not that wipes out my theory of you being a troll and being here to reel us in

Nope got brown hair that's going grey.
I'm a single parent (male) brought my lad up on my own yes I'v had bad experience and yes his primary education shall we say was not good. But there's an old saying "first impressions last"
The headmistress was and still is a complete waste of time and no I cant complain because she has friends in high places i.e The LEA
SENCO Teacher never challenged the school psyc.

 

[Samphire]

Nope got brown hair that's going grey.
I'm a single parent (male) brought my lad up on my own yes I'v had bad experience and yes his primary education shall we say was not good. But there's an old saying "first impressions last"
The headmistress was and still is a complete waste of time and no I cant complain because she has friends in high places i.e The LEA
SENCO Teacher never challenged the school psyc.[/QUO

Ok that clears up my troll theory.

I'm a single parent too ... put myself through Uni with five kiddies in tow after my divorce ... mine are grown up now yay, does not give me the excuse to walk about with blinkers on.

First impressions may last, no doubt, however if you continue to use that experience as a whip to beat everyone in the profession with then I really do feel sorry for you.

There is nothing at all to stop you from complaining .. except yourself .. Cc several people into your complaint.

SENCO would have worked with school psych in my experience ... but your experience appears to be different.

 

[Ian D J]

Is it safe to stick this "light hearted half-time comedy moment" cartoon in here, at least to ease the tension a little bit?

Breathe in . . .

. . . Aaaaaaaand breathe out.

Okay, carry on.

 

[ANDYHOP]

TO WHOM IT MY CONCERN I WOULD LIKE TO POINT OUT THAT I AM NOT PERSONALLY ATTACKING INDIVIDUALS IN THIS THREAD. WHAT I HAVE SAID IS THAT IMHO SECONDARY TEACHERS WORK HARDER AS A PROFESSION.

Like was said on last nights question time Why do teachers think there special.

 

[Samphire]

TO WHOM IT MY CONCERN I WOULD LIKE TO POINT OUT THAT I AM NOT PERSONALLY ATTACKING INDIVIDUALS IN THIS THREAD. WHAT I HAVE SAID IS THAT IMHO SECONDARY TEACHERS WORK HARDER AS A PROFESSION.

Like was said on last nights question time Why do teachers think there special.

I don't think I am special because I am a teacher .... I think I am special because my mummy told me I am

 

[Jim.R]

AFAIK teachers get a pretty reasonable deal, and if you don't like the condition's don't do the job. That goes for all the other public sector workers. If you don't like it, don't do it.

But that's the point. They started with one set of conditions, but these are now being changed.
If my employer tried to change my terms to less favourable ones, I'd be on the blower to a recruitment agency and after a new role ASAP. Teachers/policeman/firemen/nurses/doctors don't have this option as their terms for their role are the same nationwide.
Change the T+Cs for new recruits by all means, but these people started off their career expecting certain things, and these are now being taken away!

 

[Jim.R]

It does annoy me because they have off about 6 half terms in a year, 3 weeks at christmas, 3 weeks at easter, 6 weks in the summer my boys school just had an occasional day on monday, and god knows how many bank holidays. This doesn't include their own holiday entitlement. I appreciate they do work some of these days off to prepare for the next term, but they complain about the hours, they complain about the pay, seriously if its all that bad then why accept the job in the first place? There are millions out of work and they could replace these teachers in an afternoon and they would be greatfull of the oppertunity.

<chandler mode>Could you be any more ill informed!?</chandler mode>

6 half terms? By that count you're missing another couple of full term holidays to get all irrate about.

Own holiday entitlement

As for all these people that could "replace them in an afternoon", yeah right! :bonk: Cos teachers don't need training or anything, let's just let anyone teach our kids. FFS, are you for real??!?

 

[ANDYHOP]

Most other peoples (private sector) C of E's have changed from time to time.

 

[DemiLion]

Like was said on last nights question time Why do teachers think there special.

I don't think that they do (apart from the maternal love syndrome), it's just that they happen to be in the firing line at the moment.

As I pointed out earlier, this wasn't just the teachers. 95% of the emergency call operators in the London area walked out yesterday. If you want to kick off about someone striking, do it about them. That walk out had a far greater potential to cause loss of life than parents having to remain at home to provide day care.

UNITE are marching on Tuesday to protest against cuts in health care spending and to celebrate the 63rd anniversary of the founding of the NHS. Maybe you should tell them that they're being naughty and awkward as well?

 

[Jim.R]

Most other peoples (private sector) C of E's have changed from time to time.

Yeah, and if they don't accept those new terms, the have the option of moving jobs to a different company with terms they can accept. The groups I mentioned above don't have that option as their vocation is state controlled with the same terms/pay/benefits accross the board.

 

[ANDYHOP]

Not at all but the teachers are the only ones moaning never heard a dickie word off:

Immigration and passport
UK Border agency
Courts service
D of E in job centre plus

 

[ANDYHOP]

Yeah, and if they don't accept those new terms, the have the option of moving jobs to a different company with terms they can accept. The groups I mentioned above don't have that option as their vocation is state controlled with the same terms/pay/benefits accross the board.

THEY DO HAVE A CHOICE CHANGE JOB

 

[DemiLion]

Oh and just for Andy, regarding the disparity between primary and secondary school working conditions:

So why are teachers so stressed? The school day, after all, is shorter than most office working days and when teachers' longer holidays are taken into account, the time they work annually compares favourably with similarly paid jobs.

In addition, thanks to new laws, teachers now do fewer administration tasks. There is a strict statutory limit on the amount of cover for colleagues, and every teacher now has dedicated preparation time in the week.

Teachers, however, maintain little has changed. A survey by the School Teachers' Review Body, which reports to the Prime Minister and to the Secretary of State for Education on the statutory pay and conditions of school teachers in England and Wales, shows primary teachers work 52.2 hours a week, and secondary teachers work 49.9 hours. Most spend fewer than 20 of those hours teaching. The rest, they say, is spent on tasks that should not be part of their jobs.

The discrepancy between government assurances and reality is also seen in Scotland, where a maximum 35-hour week was set for teachers under the McCrone Agreement in 2001. Last year, however, a survey by the Scottish Secondary Teachers' Association, found more than 60 per cent of teachers believed the agreement had not alleviated workload pressures while 37 per cent believed it had actually increased them. Research carried out in 2005 by the General Teaching Council, among others, identified issues of excessive workload as the principal frustration to teachers in carrying out their duties, in spite of contractual changes. It is a finding supported by a TUC league table of unpaid overtime, published in 2005, that showed teachers carried out the largest amount of unpaid overtime in the UK, at an average of 11 hours 36 minutes per week

From The Guardian 2008. Full article:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2008/aug/31/teaching.teachersworkload

 

[Jim.R]

Not at all but the teachers are the only ones moaning never heard a dickie word off:

Immigration and passport
UK Border agency
Courts service
D of E in job centre plus

A lot of those were on strike yestrerday as well

(My inlaws got stuck in a massive queue at the airport due to the lack of border agency staff. In some ways, it's a shame the strike was only one day )

 

[DemiLion]

Not at all but the teachers are the only ones moaning never heard a dickie word off:

Immigration and passport
UK Border agency
Courts service
D of E in job centre plus

Did you have your eyes firmly shut yesterday?