To D700 or not to D700?

Simon that's a wonderful offer thank you so much. :)

I'll get the pricing sorted in the next day or two but I've already worked out a worst case scenario and I'm still interested.

Perhaps if we could meet somewhere convenient and go for a walk/coffee that would be wonderful.
 
BouncyMelons said:
That's all well and fine Mark but don't forget there is more to this consideration than JUST ISO performance. There is no point at all in having ISO performance if it does not get focus and I'm sorry but I have both systems at the moment in the 1 Ds and 5D and the 1Ds wins hands down. .
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Ahhh, but the point was in the context of silent mode shooting for use in a dimly lit church. As I tested, even contrast mode will focus at 4 stops lower than you need (dispelling the claim by desantnik that contrast mode was next to useless!)
I thought silent shooting (or at least, less noisy shooting), might be useful for you in some circumstances in a church.
 
Indeed it is a good point but I've not had a problem thus far. I usually disable the audible focus beep in Church so it's only the shutter/mirror slap I need to worry about and I'm very selective with my timing. I don't machine gun a ceremony so it's honestly not a huge concern.

Thanks for raising it though, everything needs to be considered. Especially the rage of my bank manager and my other half who want to go on holiday to Canada in a motorhome!
 
BouncyMelons said:
Yes I know plenty of good wedding photographers who use the 5DII, Damien Lovegrove, Mark Cleghorn. Jeff Ascough, all of whom can undoubtably shoot the backsides off anything I can produce. So I am more than willing to consider the 5DII. This is all about weighing up options and working out what is best for me at this moment, Just as I did three years ago when I made the choice of Canon.
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Damien Lovegrove stopped shooting weddings in 2008 and was really a MF man. Jeff Ascough agrees with me that the 5D/5D II is really a centre-point only camera, especially for us available light shooters. After a brief flirtation with the 5D II last year he's now back shooting 1D series bodies.
 
User Name said:
Ahhh, but the point was in the context of silent mode shooting for use in a dimly lit church. As I tested, even contrast mode will focus at 4 stops lower than you need (dispelling the claim by desantnik that contrast mode was next to useless!)
I thought silent shooting (or at least, less noisy shooting), might be useful for you in some circumstances in a church.
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Will it focus on someone 50 feet away though? Genuine question.
 
For what it is worth here is my unscientific findings .....

I moved from Nikon when the 5D came out and the jump in quality was great.

I have owned and used D1x,D2x, 5D, 5DMKII, 1DMKIII, D3

And when I say used - used in the real world on paying work - not looking at web sized charts and images

The question to keep in your mind is what % of output as part of a job is very low light high ISO ?

Yes it is important to get the shot - but still a small part of the large picture.

The 5DMKII bodies I had were excellent at high ISO but I'm afraid at low ISO the file quality wasn't as good as the original 5D - both in pixel peeping and real world prints. Yes you had plenty of pixels to crop but that isn't everything - quality of pixels counts.

There were many documented pros (including Ascough when he moved to the MKIV) who found the same poor low ISO performance out of the 5DMKII. The AF wasn't improved and the file sizes became a pain for no quality gain.

Also the MKII files didn't like being pulled / pushed in post like the original - and exhibited file degradation very quickly

I then had a pair of 1DMKIII's - night and day from the 5DMKII. great focus (when it worked) superb file quality and a joy to use. High ISO was acceptable and with minimum work just as good as the 5DMKII - again this is in real world use.

However after the third recall and poor service from Canon - coupled with their questionable quality control on lenses I switched back to Nikon

So arrived the D3 - high ISO beat the 5DMKII , 1DMKIII hands down without tweaking in post. AF was superb and the file size gets me 36 x 24 prints without issue.

Lens wise Nikon have always been more expensive - but IMO they are better built at the pro level and don't exhibit the same front / back focus. Infact Nikon don't advocate using micro adjust as they say that their lenses should be sharp without it.

Many Canon users have adopted the 14-24 with convertors as that lens if you need it is just so good.

The Nikon incarnations of the 24-70 are all superb and the latest their best to date - yes the Canon equivalent was good - but even my sharp copy didn't match the Nikon.

The 70-200 VRI and the Canon 70-200 are probably on a par with each other - again if you get a good sample copy of the Canon. The VRII is much better than the Canon and completes the Nikon lineup of 14-24, 24-70, 70-200.

Again take what I say with a pinch of salt - but my opinion has been formed by using them all in the heat of battle

Oh and as for flash systems - night and day - Nikon CLS is far better
 
spxxxx said:
For what it is worth here is my unscientific findings .....

I moved from Nikon when the 5D came out and the jump in quality was great.

I have owned and used D1x,D2x, 5D, 5DMKII, 1DMKIII, D3

And when I say used - used in the real world on paying work - not looking at web sized charts and images

The question to keep in your mind is what % of output as part of a job is very low light high ISO ?

Yes it is important to get the shot - but still a small part of the large picture.

The 5DMKII bodies I had were excellent at high ISO but I'm afraid at low ISO the file quality wasn't as good as the original 5D - both in pixel peeping and real world prints. Yes you had plenty of pixels to crop but that isn't everything - quality of pixels counts.

There were many documented pros (including Ascough when he moved to the MKIV) who found the same poor low ISO performance out of the 5DMKII. The AF wasn't improved and the file sizes became a pain for no quality gain.

Also the MKII files didn't like being pulled / pushed in post like the original - and exhibited file degradation very quickly

I then had a pair of 1DMKIII's - night and day from the 5DMKII. great focus (when it worked) superb file quality and a joy to use. High ISO was acceptable and with minimum work just as good as the 5DMKII - again this is in real world use.

However after the third recall and poor service from Canon - coupled with their questionable quality control on lenses I switched back to Nikon

So arrived the D3 - high ISO beat the 5DMKII , 1DMKIII hands down without tweaking in post. AF was superb and the file size gets me 36 x 24 prints without issue.

Lens wise Nikon have always been more expensive - but IMO they are better built at the pro level and don't exhibit the same front / back focus. Infact Nikon don't advocate using micro adjust as they say that their lenses should be sharp without it.

Many Canon users have adopted the 14-24 with convertors as that lens if you need it is just so good.

The Nikon incarnations of the 24-70 are all superb and the latest their best to date - yes the Canon equivalent was good - but even my sharp copy didn't match the Nikon.

The 70-200 VRI and the Canon 70-200 are probably on a par with each other - again if you get a good sample copy of the Canon. The VRII is much better than the Canon and completes the Nikon lineup of 14-24, 24-70, 70-200.

Again take what I say with a pinch of salt - but my opinion has been formed by using them all in the heat of battle
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That is one good reply :)

Makes me think why Im with Canon :gag:
 
Ali, just a random question, but can i ask what part of weddings do you use each camera for?

5D - Dime churches etc
1DsmkII - ?

And when do you hold one-handed and shoot off camera flash?

Mike
 
I depends on the lighting which I use and for what. Also depends on how much (if any) I envisage cropping an image. I will generally shoot as much as I can on the 1Ds but have a second lens on the 5D. Perhaps if I am shooting the ceremony with the 1Ds and a 70-200 I may put the 35mm f2 on the 5D and get some wider shots at the same time.

For one handed shooting they are usually bridal prep or bridal portraits if the location has a good staircase then you can shoot off camera very quickly. 5D in one hand with an ST-E2 and a flash in my hand I can bounce it off walls and ceiling on the move. Generally don't have time for light stands doing that.

Thanks for the comprehensive reply from someone who has made the move Simon. :)
Yes I acknowledge that the really low light stuff is a small percentage of what I'm doing but my main concern is that it's also an extremely crucial part of the day, the ceremony. I have been just within the shooting limits of my current gear and I'd like a little more headroom and thought it would be a perfect time to do a proper evaluation. My 5D is just over three years old and in fab condition, I have no worries about it's reliability. I figure that if I upgrade one of the two every three years then I should be keeping my kit just about up to date rather than do the whole lot at once but I have to say I'm a bit tempted.

As ever it depends on price and SimonTALM has very kindly offered me the chance to go for a walk and have a try with his D700 and the lenses I'm looking at so in the next couple of weeks it will be decision time. It's a biggie though, hence I thought it prudent to ask for these real world experiences because like you, I don't live in a lab ;)
 
Ah yes, now i see what you mean :)
 
Alison, I have not read all the thread, but if you want to borrow a D700 and a couple of lenses to try for yourself,let me know.
 
Thanks a million Ade, most generous :)

SimonTALM is just down the road from me and has kindly offered too so we may be going for a walk soon :)

Really appreciate all the help I've had here, you lot are fab! :)
 
Remember to go somewhere dark and dank on your walk Alison. GIve it a bit of stick.

I reckon you'll do it, but only after you've got the facts to make a sensible choice - very sensible.
 
You know me too well already Paul, I have a spreadsheet with all the Calumet prices (That's my worst case scenario as they are not the cheapest) for the Nikon kit and I have all the ebay prices for my Canon kit and so far I've not been far off but I'll monitor it for a couple of weeks to make sure.

I'm getting a trade in price on all my gear too and where it's not to my advantage then I know where/how to sell it. ;)
 
BouncyMelons said:
Thanks a million Ade, most generous :)

SimonTALM is just down the road from me and has kindly offered too so we may be going for a walk soon :)

Really appreciate all the help I've had here, you lot are fab! :)
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Ah, just read the whole thread,no problems...........:thumbs:
 
BouncyMelons said:
It might mean me doing the same as you Dod and privately selling but depends on the front end pricing :)
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I was really canny about my purchases, most of my "new" kit is second hand but it's totally mint throughout. Very cost effective overall :)
 
I'd consider that in a heartbeat Dod. Try finding a mint D700 second hand though!
I even looked on the bay and the only ones that were up for auction I can actually get new for the price they are going for (which IS nuts) or they are just plain hot as a hot potato.

I even reported one on ebay last week. No boxes, no charger, no accessories, no proof of purchase, a starting price of £50 and the seller knew nothing about cameras. Reported it to ebay who copped right out with a "we only take these kinds of reports from the Police"

No wonder stuff gets nicked! Grrr

Might have a to do some hunting at the weekend and see if I can track down as much as I can.

One retailer did make me laugh with their "discount" My shopping list is basically £9K and they came up with a discount on that of £130. Wow how generous.......except if I bought the D700 as two kits and added the other bits (one with a 14-24 and the other as a 24-70) the total price is actually £130 cheaper LIST than your own discounted price. I think that goes down as a "Must try harder" :)
 
BouncyMelons said:
One retailer did make me laugh with their "discount" My shopping list is basically £9K and they came up with a discount on that of £130. Wow how generous.......
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Ha ha. Try it with a £50K shopping list (like I did last summer) ... same result.
 
Thread update :)

Been for a walk with the wonderful Simon (Thank you) and yes we did give it some stick. Found some really dark corners and I took the 5D along as a comparison. When the 5D ran out of ability to shoot and the files became unusable the D700 still had two stops left!

Tried shooting a few indoor shots on both manual and Aperture priority and no surprise that the aperture priority ones are near identical and they were coming up with the same settings. I really enjoyed shooting manual with the Nikon though and the time spent with Simon has been invaluable if only to quell my fear of Nikon's menu system. Basically set the cameras up and the only time I should need to tinker with the menus is to access the flash commander. I can work with that! :)

I'm going to have a good look at the files now and we did throw some nasty stuff at it in the fog this morning, in courtyards and using very similar locations to what we would shoot at weddings. Took some candids in a coffee shop and took some pics of canvases on the walls which were very detailed so they will give me a great range to go and make sure them megapixels are good.

Even tried some flash and Simon was very good at explaining/demoing the flash system which is quite different. The SB900 is awesome! Ended up shooting a milk jug on a dark table with a gelled flash and getting the daylight blue as it backlit the jug. That will be an interesting one to see because if you substitute the white jug for a bride and you have a dark floor and a daylight backlight...........you can see why I would shoot a milk jug :)

The focusing and the way you can just ramp up the ISO to give plenty of shutter speed is fantastic and I'm already more than half convinced. Off to look at the files and empty the piggy bank! :)
 
i bought the 700 new most of my lens are secound hand and in superb condition

ffordes are great arrives the next day from scotland and i have bought from greys who you know only sell quality [at a price].
my latest 35mm f2 was new and came from camtech another good company,they replaced the sigma 28mm i bought of them which was horrible.

in the end the camera is superb, but it depends on whether it feels right in your hands especialy if your used to canon.
 
I did find it a little odd having the control wheels the other way round on the Nikon, but after an hour or so it was beginning to sink in. Doh!

I use the 5D and 1DsII at the moment so I'm used to having different cameras with different controls in my hand and I don't know if that made it a little easier. I didn't play around too much with the settings on Simon's (He'd be doing a factory reset this morning otherwise!) But did make good use of aperture, shutter, ISO of course and WB and drive controls. Those are the ones I'd be using most of the time.

I other gorgeous thing is that if I find I struggle with the shutter/aperture being the other way round, I can always just reassign them! Think I'd probably just stick with it and see how I get on though. Basically just live with the thing in my hand till I get used to it.

I did have a good look at the files yesterday and there were a few really impressive ones, not in terms of my inate ability to see a shot but in terms of technical performance. I took one of Simon in exactly the kind of location I would put a Bride and shooting on manual I made my guess at the exposure. Dialled that in and it was absolutely spot on. When I looked at the raw file the highlights were perfect and there was still detail in the shadows. Printed that one at A3+ just as a check since it's a bit fewer MP and it's got all the quality I need. Pixel peeping I'm up at 160%+ before I'm starting to see any real degradation. That's very similar to my 1DsII.

The other ones that really impressed me were a shot of some grass with a dead tree in the background in the fog. There was some decent light on this straggly grass though. On the 24-70 I didn't do anything other than my normal sharpening action on it and printed it at A4. Showed my other half and the comment was "Blimey, that's sharp!"

Then there was the "Dark test" Under a canopy so there is only light from one side and it's really dark in there. Tried the 5D against the D700 (Bit unfair I know but that's my current kit so I wanted to see how much improvement I could expect) The 5D ran out of ISO. Shot at ISO3200 and still had to pull the exposure by a stop to get anything even remotely worth while. Used exactly the same settings on the Nikon, pulled the file a stop and it looked like someone had switched a light on! There were still two stops to go on the Nikon too. I was more interested in the quality at 3200 though, that's more real world for me and running both files through Dfine noise reduction there was no doubt the D700 produced a cleaner if warmer file. That was an interesting exercise, the Canon produced a much cooler image and the Nikon was warmer.

Thanks to Simon for the test drive, most impressed. :)
 
Agreed a price for a 14-24 today so that should be with me around the end of the week. Sourced some great prices on the rest which I will happily report back on once I place the order. :)

Woodsy very kindly reminded me that I have to take the obligatory "New Kit" shot once all the boxes arrive.

Next job is to get the 1DsII in to Canon for a service. It's due one anyway and it will give me peace of mind selling it knowing it's tip top so I'll get that in this week.

Once the Nikon gear arrives I'll get it all up and running before selling the Canon stuff. Oh lordy, the house is going to look like a branch of Calumet and he who must be obeyed is going to be scratching his head in that perplexed manner again! :bat:
 
One 14-24mm on it's way :)

The rest I have priced and just confirming details and it will be mine, oh yes, it will be mine.........

(Bank manager being sent valium!)
 
nice one Ali, it is very different, there's no doubt of that :)

I had my first proper day out with mine yesterday. One of the things I found frustrating was that it seems more fiddly to change the focus point than it is with the Canon, especially if you're having to move fast.

Does anyone know if it's only the "joystick" thing on the back you can use or is there another way?
 
Congrats Ali, one of the nicest things about the Nikon is the amount of customisation you can do, so if there's some control issue you come across with the Nikon you'll be able to change it 95% of the time :)
 
dod said:
nice one Ali, it is very different, there's no doubt of that :)

I had my first proper day out with mine yesterday. One of the things I found frustrating was that it seems more fiddly to change the focus point than it is with the Canon, especially if you're having to move fast.

Does anyone know if it's only the "joystick" thing on the back you can use or is there another way?
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Ahhh yes :)

There is a custom function where you can reassign the middle button and I think you can reassign a different focus point to it (your most commonly used one)

See, reading the manual already :)

Thanks James, usually any control problem is actually down to the idiot behind it! i.e. me ;)
 
As a former Nikon user who switched to Canon when going digital I really shouldn't read threads like this. :'(

You're all swines! :razz:

Good luck with the new kit! :love::lol:
 
Goes of singing "Star trekking across the universe........." ;)
 
BouncyMelons said:
Ahhh yes :)

There is a custom function where you can reassign the middle button and I think you can reassign a different focus point to it (your most commonly used one)
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page 336, will make it do what I want it to, I think :banana:
 
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