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Unless you print really big there's no clear advantage to a full frame camera.

One advantage of FF for me and especially of the Sony A7 as it's the only FF CSC is that you can use old film era manual lenses at their intended FoV. Nothing to do with image quality really, it's just a nice thing to do :D
 
One advantage of FF for me and especially of the Sony A7 as it's the only FF CSC is that you can use old film era manual lenses at their intended FoV. Nothing to do with image quality really, it's just a nice thing to do :D


Indeed.... so you chose your tools appropriately, because you had manual lenses, or saw an advantage in using them... not because you thought it would somehow make your photography better.
 
No, it's nothing to do with ultimate quality, it's about enjoyment and getting acceptable results.
 
No, it's nothing to do with ultimate quality, it's about enjoyment and getting acceptable results.
Quite. And there are always constraints. Some of them are budgetary.
 
There seems to be a lot of uneducated people in this thread talking lot of b*****ks. Just admit full frame is better and be done with it.

Your argument seems to be that a Ferrari is no better than a mini. Both do a job but anyone with 2 brain cells will admit a Ferrari is the better car.
 
There seems to be a lot of uneducated people in this thread talking lot of b*****ks. Just admit full frame is better and be done with it.

Your argument seems to be that a Ferrari is no better than a mini. Both do a job but anyone with 2 brain cells will admit a Ferrari is the better car.


I'm assuming that you're joking:D
As already said the best camera format is the best one for the job
for me its crop as I shoot wildlife and am often reach limited
 
Your argument seems to be that a Ferrari is no better than a mini. Both do a job but anyone with 2 brain cells will admit a Ferrari is the better car.
"Better" in what respect? In practical terms: let's say you're driving around the centre of a major city, which is better a Ferrari or a Mini? Arguably the Mini, but at best you could say there's little difference. One isn't a "better" tool for getting around than the other, it depends what job you're trying to do with it.
The Ferrari might be a higher performance car, but if you don't need that higher performance what does it matter to you, practically? The Mini might actually be the better tool for the job. I recently watched an idiot in a sparkling white Range Rover SUV trying to navigate narrow city lanes and find a parking space, causing no end of chaos for everyone else on the road. What's the better car there? A stupid, penis-extension SUV or a Mini?
The only reasons to shell out on a Ferrari are if you need the ridiculously high performance for some reason, or if you want to show off. Same with FF.
In many cases there's no need for FF, and in some of those cases crop sensors may actually be better.

Saying "FF is better, all the time, whatever you do", as you seem to be saying, is completely stupid.
 
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What lens did you use ?


For what image? :)

There seems to be a lot of uneducated people in this thread talking lot of b*****ks. Just admit full frame is better and be done with it.

Your argument seems to be that a Ferrari is no better than a mini. Both do a job but anyone with 2 brain cells will admit a Ferrari is the better car.

Which is better to drive around City centre Manchester?


There's no such thing as better. The Ferrari is only "better" in your mind because it's more expensive, faster, and more powerful, and has the power of the brand behind it. Ghoti is absolutely correct. You'd actually look like a bit of a nob driving round a city centre in a Ferrari. You've obviously never driven such a car in such an environment Rob. The semi-auto gearbox grabs and jerks trying to manoeuvre at low speeds; visibility is crap; it's too wide; it's far too low and grounds out in car parks etc. It's awful. Any super car would be. Same with muscle cars: I can't even take mine to car parks - it doesn't fit most, and even if I can get it in, I set off every car alarm I drive past! It's a ridiculous car to take into a city centre. Get it on a deserted A road or a drag strip though..... then it's something else entirely.

Trying to do street photography with a D800 + Grip and a 70 to 200 f2.8 is the same... A) You'll stand out like a sore thumb, B) it's too heavy to walk around with all day, and you'll just get security guards asking you to stop shooting as they think you're a "professional". You'd be much better off with a small compact, then you'll be able to shoot with impunity, anywhere, just as people with phones seem to be able to do. How many times have I seen people mention, or complain in threads that they were asked to stop shooting, yet people around them were taking pictures with phones with no problem? Well... no **** Sherlock.... LOL. Stop taking stupid cameras on a job that requires stealth then you idiots! LOL. Some people baffle me, they really do.

With a print of A3 or less I challenge anyone to be able to tell a Nikon D7100 image from a D810/800E image. I bet most would struggle at larger than A3 too.

I own full frame gear Rob, and I still disagree with you. YOU sir, are talking b*****ks, no one else.


One these pictures is taken on a full frame camera... one isn't. Both are resized to A3 at 300ppi. This isn't even a D7100 with 24mp and no AA filter we're talking either... this is a 36mp D800 vs. a 16mp D7000. Both images are straight off camera.

Click image for full A3 size, then click again to zoom to full res. May not work on phones and tablets.






At A3... I bet you all struggle to decide which is which.

Unless you print really big, full frame offers no practical advantage. Each have their own advantages and disadvantages. Plus... a full frame camera with a zoom lens is often not as good as a crop sensor with a good prime.

You select the right tools for the job, like any good professional does. Only amateurs (and far too many professionals) are obsessed with "full frame" because they think a "better" camera gives them better images, and they also insecure and fear derision from their peers if they use "consumer" cameras instead of "professional" ones. Pathetic. Grow up.

As for "professional" build, I've used "pro-sumer" bodies and racked up hundreds of thousands of frames with no issues, and yet had professional bodies crap out well before then. Who the hell in this forum needs professional build anyway? How many on here with professional bodies actually treat them hard enough to warrant it? I'm prepared to bet that those that do have professional bodies treat them really well, never drop them or bash them, never take them into harsh environments, or treat them in any way that requires the level of build professional bodies exhibit.

Yes.. handled well, a full frame camera is capable of producing sharper, bigger prints, but the way I see some full frame cameras used (crap zoom lenses, hand held, then images processed to death) any advantage you think you had is already lost. It's a fine line, and unless you print big, to very high standards, there's just no big deal about "full frame".

The way you all talk in here anyone who didn't know better would assume there's a MASSIVE, NOTICEABLE difference between crop and 35mm. There just isn't. It's there, and worth pursuing if you need it, but really... come on now.... stop talking b*****ks... they're not "better". They're a different tool for when you have different requirements. If I know from the outset that I'm going to need a 3 metre print... I'll borrow the Phase One/IQ180 from work and leave the tiny little toy "35mm" camera at home. It doesn't mean the Phase One is "better" just because it's a bigger format. There's a great deal it can't do well at all.
 
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As owner of a mini, a proper original one [ok, it's his, but you my drift] and garage owners that have had access over the years to all manner of cars, I can confirm the mini is by far the best car to drive round central London in! ;)

However, to take the analogy back to real world cameras, my Nikon kit does the job I need it for, and in most peoples minds is far better than the Fuji X10 I also own. In many ways that is correct. Except, my fun photos at the moment involved lego characters, bits and pieces I can carry around in my handbag, so the too the X10 [or even my phone] because trust me, I cannot fit even an ungripped D700 and 30mm lens in my handbag. Nor do I want to, I want it to be easy, fun and often impromptu. Ergo, the best camera for this job is the X10, not the hugely more expensive Nikon kit.
 
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There seems to be a lot of uneducated people in this thread talking lot of b*****ks. Just admit full frame is better and be done with it.

Your argument seems to be that a Ferrari is no better than a mini. Both do a job but anyone with 2 brain cells will admit a Ferrari is the better car.


But if you take the rear seats out of a Mini and shoe-horn a 3.5 litre V8 into the boot, you can pull wheelies in one. You sure as hell can't do that with a Ferrari.
 
Your argument seems to be that a Ferrari is no better than a mini. Both do a job but anyone with 2 brain cells will admit a Ferrari is the better car.

I can get a lot more amplifiers, guitars and PA into my Renault Kangoo than I could into a Ferrari and I have a gig tonight - which one is better for me?


Steve.
 
Did I say that though?
If you didn't say it outright you heavily implied it. You said people were talking "b*****ks" when they pointed out that which was better depended on what they wanted to do with it, which is pretty much just another way of arguing that FF is always better.
 
Sod better, I want the Ferrari and Canon 1DX, but back to the real world reckon I will stay with the fifteen year old Corolla and nearly as old 5D (also got a steaming pile of s*** crAp sensor Fuji X-T1)
 
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Will a D750 fit in my mankini?

I may post selfies...
 
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So then.. which one was the full frame camera Rob?
 
But if someone on a Guitar forum posted a Youtube link of his bands latest song, wouldn't it make more sense to be discussing the nuances of the music rather than if the bass player was using Round-Wound or Ground Wound Strings...

I'm not sure that's really an appropriate analogy to be honest. Nuances of the music could very easily encompass how players are getting sounds and how those sounds are being used, the type of strings in use hugely affect those sounds so in a way they're part of the same thing. To me this analogy is a bit like saying it's better to discuss the nuances of an image rather than whether a photographer used colour or black and white film - the film plays a huge part in the content and the context of the image, as do sounds in music.
 
..... http://www.talkphotography.co.uk/threads/i-am-different-i-am-with.571165/

made me think a bit, or rather some of the replies did.

As this thread suggests what camera we use is generally unimportant and other threads have said the lens is more important. Therefore should we, when posting images, say which lens we used, but not mention the camera at all?

I realise there are images where a member is trying out some capabilities or function of a camera and wants to says what camera they used, but for many shots is there any need to mention it?

Dave

PS I am sure I have been guilty of this.
It's the old adage:
Novices think it's all about cameras
Enthusiasts think it's all about lenses
Photographers know it's all about light.

In short, many people believe that knowing about kit will improve their photography, they're wrong!

See the links to the articles about the recently departed Jane Bown to understand how someone can create awesome images with no concern about 'gear'.
 
There seems to be a lot of uneducated people in this thread talking lot of b*****ks. Just admit full frame is better and be done with it.

Your argument seems to be that a Ferrari is no better than a mini. Both do a job but anyone with 2 brain cells will admit a Ferrari is the better car.

Someone's been reading too many photography magazines...
 
It's the old adage:
Novices think it's all about cameras
Enthusiasts think it's all about lenses
Photographers know it's all about light.

In short, many people believe that knowing about kit will improve their photography, they're wrong!

See the links to the articles about the recently departed Jane Bown to understand how someone can create awesome images with no concern about 'gear'.

And in regard to 'the kit' the best camera you have is the one on you at the time you need to take the picture, it is no good moaning about wrong body/lens et al if all you have is a P&S or a smartphone ~ if you can get a/the picture worthy of what kit you have there & then, then great otherwise just enjoy what you see............but a corollary of that in the digital age is that everyone with a smartphone has one and as in all things photographic it is the person taking the picture that counts! I fear the photographic family records of this decade will be the selfie :( but that is debate for another day :lol:
 
All about enjoyment, if they are having fun what does it matter to anyone else?

I support a crap footie team, still enjoy watching them although I'm sure others think its pointless (certainly are that last bit this season)
Up the Town!!!!


Ipswich! Yeah! ??
 
I don't see the relevance of your question

You have been evangelising the benefits of full frame in this thread, saying it's simply better as a definitive statement. I have posted 2 files sized to A3 @ 300ppi, one from a 16mp crop sensor camera, and one from a 36mp full frame camera. As you insist full frame is so superior, you should have no problems detecting which is which.... so knock yourself out.. which is which?
 
You have been evangelising the benefits of full frame in this thread, saying it's simply better as a definitive statement. I have posted 2 files sized to A3 @ 300ppi, one from a 16mp crop sensor camera, and one from a 36mp full frame camera. As you insist full frame is so superior, you should have no problems detecting which is which.... so knock yourself out.. which is which?

I think him saying he doesn't see the relevance of the question has already proved how much he's missing the point by...
 
You have been evangelising the benefits of full frame in this thread, saying it's simply better as a definitive statement. I have posted 2 files sized to A3 @ 300ppi, one from a 16mp crop sensor camera, and one from a 36mp full frame camera. As you insist full frame is so superior, you should have no problems detecting which is which.... so knock yourself out.. which is which?
Of course it's obvious that FF is 'better', in the sense that more information is better than less information.
A proper high quality vinyl record on a decent timetable through a high quality amp and speakers is loads better than MP3s through in ear headphones, but which one would you take on a train journey?

A field camera will produce higher quality images than a DSLR, will produce higher quality images than a phone camera, but which is 'appropriate' or convenient is a different issue entirely.

'Best'is a really strange concept for a throwaway statement.
 
Your argument seems to be that a Ferrari is no better than a mini. Both do a job but anyone with 2 brain cells will admit a Ferrari is the better car.

try fitting a ferrari down a storm drain [/the italian job] - It may be the more expensive car, it may be better built, and faster in a straight line , but whether it is better for the job in hand depends what that job is.
 
There really are some stupid people in this thread that have no idea what 'better' actually means.

then Kindly enlighten the mystified multitude...

I tend to go with the OED...

better -
adjective
more desirable, satisfactory, or effective:

and as has been pointed out, there are many, many occasions where a full frame camera is neither the most desirable, satisfactory or effective.
 
There really are some stupid people in this thread that have no idea what 'better' actually means.

My my...Just a very quick peruse of the thread and there's one that stands out :-)
 
then Kindly enlighten the mystified multitude...
Allow me to use a different analogy to show my opinion of the meaning of better.

If I was to say that Christiano Ronaldo was a better footballer than Wayne Rooney would you assume I was implying that Wayne Rooney can't play football or that every goal Ronaldo scores is better than Rooney's? No, I'd hope you wouldn't. You'd probably assume that although they are both very good and can both do a job one is in fact marginally better than the other when you take everything in to account.

You could apply the same logic to the Canon 5D, 5D MkII & 5D MkIII. All are very capable cameras. The 5D didn't become any less capable when the MkII came out but the MkII is better. Ditto with the mark MkIII.

Better DOES NOT mean that all other things are crap and useless, just that on the balance of all things it can and can't do it is overall a more superior performer. Based on that I stand by my opinion that full frame is better than crop sensor cameras.
 
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