This is what happens when you let other people set your lights for you

[JonathanRyan]

So yesterday I was running a training course for Lencarta. I don't shoot much on these courses, more sort of wave my arms and tease people.

It's very hand on - delegates set up the lights according to rules and clues they get given - but it's really their own work. Then I nick the odd shot and claim it's mine (If you think about it, that's the opposite of lots of training courses....).

Anyway, couple of pics I robbed. Shot by me but they did the hard work. All in a tiny hotel meeting room with an inadequate ceiling.

1. Low key.

2. High key. A.k.a chavground (That's actually a wedding dress she's wearing - the mind boggles)

3. (Hardest challenge of the day) environmental portrait.

You know, I think they did OK

Oh and a massive thanks to Amy who stepped in at the last minute after the model I'd booked broke her leg....

And then Amber popped down for a couple of snaps.

She's going to model for us on the next course on 10th April. (I believe there are a couple of spots still available....). Yeah, looking forward to people lighting her hair correctly (in fairness, delegates had set a hairlight for Amy and a veil she turned out not to be wearing...)

 

[Garry Edwards]

looking forward to people lighting her hair correctly (in fairness, delegates had set a hairlight for Amy and a veil she turned out not to be wearing...)

I think this is where these lighting workshops really shine (OK, that deserves a groan)
The number of times I've read rubbish on t'internet and in books about setting a hairlight say half a stop more than the overall lighting, when in the real world it depends on
1. The effect you want to achieve
2. The type/quality of the hair - is it in good condition? Natural blonde or suicide blond? afro? There can be 5 stops difference between afro and natural blond in terms of the amount of power needed...

People in the midlands/north shouldn't go on Jonathan's April workshop, they should come to my own Art nude one instead, there are still a couple of places available, which has never happened before

 

[zeitghost]

Oh I fancy another one of these workshops - been on the art nude one - so could try out the portrait one ... now do I choose Garry or Jonathan - hmm decisions decisions

 

[Garry Edwards]

Oh I fancy another one of these workshops - been on the art nude one - so could try out the portrait one ... now do I choose Garry or Jonathan - hmm decisions decisions

Well, you know what Harry Hill would say

 

[Swissglover]

Very interested in one of the courses coming up soon, will PM you my e mail addy.

 

[nerual]

I was lucky enough to attend the course on Sunday

I wrote up my thoughts on the following thread

http://www.talkphotography.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=306262

Thanks again !

 

[mjcombe]

Hi key=chavground?

I'm confused...

 

[Garry Edwards]

Hi key=chavground?

I'm confused...

AFAIK I coined the term 'chavground' - Jonathan can use if he likes but he'll hve to pay me a licence fee

 

[gman]

Hi key=chavground?

I'm confused...

I don't mind the hi-key setup so long as it's relevant, appropriate and done well. I think the problem lies in that some people just do it all the time as it's fairly easy to setup and obtain 'acceptable' results once you've got it sussed.

I would say that Venture do it well probably because the subjects are doing interesting things and your attention is drawn to them. If it's just someone doing a standard pose then the hi-key white can look a little boring and clinical. I think there needs to be energy in the shot for hi-key to work!

I think any background should be relevant to the subject, atmosphere and feeling you are trying to convey to the viewer.

 

[HoppyUK]

So yesterday I was running a training course for Lencarta...

I think this is where these lighting workshops really shine...

There was a young fella named Kris

Who thought Lencarta were taking the p***

Their blatant self-promotion caused such a commotion

That he had to resign from this place

 

[alpina]

There was a young fella named Kris

Who thought Lencarta were taking the p***

Their blatant self-promotion caused such a commotion

That he had to resign from this place

On sentry duty as usual...Halt who goes there? Lencarta eh? Bang:baby:

Its says advertiser on Garrys name box! I truly hope that you don't one day pee him off as he and Lencarta have helped me to progress my lighting skills.

Both of you contribute immensely to this section, the theory you explain in layman's terms and examples you provide are astounding and appreciated.

I get the impression you dont like either Garry or Lencarta which is your business but how's about trying to ease up on on the sniping?

 

[Kris]

'Resigning' has its benefits. Since stopping farting about on here, I've picked up another three wedding bookings; one for 3/8/2013!

Lets face it, you forumisters are not my target market. Unless your name is ...... {must........ resist......... urge............}

 

[Garry Edwards]

On sentry duty as usual...Halt who goes there? Lencarta eh? Bang:baby:

Its says advertiser on Garrys name box! I truly hope that you don't one day pee him off as he and Lencarta have helped me to progress my lighting skills.

Both of you contribute immensely to this section, the theory you explain in layman's terms and examples you provide are astounding and appreciated.

I get the impression you dont like either Garry or Lencarta which is your business but how's about trying to ease up on on the sniping?

I think that most of the sniping is either good natured or misinformed, neither of which bothers me in the least

We get this 'which make is better' argument in just about every field - cars and motorbikes are probably the best examples - and the short answer is always the same - different people have different needs, different levels of commitment, different levels of budget etc., so nobody ever has the monopoly on being right.


And I'm sure that Richard has nothing against me, we just disagree sometimes, and sometimes he's right and sometimes I'm right. With a subject as diverse and subjective as photography, that's inevitable - and healthy.

I won't be around much today, I'm going to say goodbye to an old friend who was diagnosed with cancer less than a month ago. Things like that are far more important than petty disagreements about equipment or personalities.

 

[gman]

On sentry duty as usual...Halt who goes there? Lencarta eh? Bang:baby:

Its says advertiser on Garrys name box! I truly hope that you don't one day pee him off as he and Lencarta have helped me to progress my lighting skills.

Both of you contribute immensely to this section, the theory you explain in layman's terms and examples you provide are astounding and appreciated.

I get the impression you dont like either Garry or Lencarta which is your business but how's about trying to ease up on on the sniping?

I think it's just in jest otherwise this (posted afterwards) would be a little strange eh?

Short answer is get the Smartflash, get them now and get some practise in. Spend your reading time on learning how to use them.

You can spend a heck of a lot more, but you won't get anything cheaper that will do a good and reliable job

 

[HoppyUK]

On sentry duty as usual...Halt who goes there? Lencarta eh? Bang:baby:

Its says advertiser on Garrys name box! I truly hope that you don't one day pee him off as he and Lencarta have helped me to progress my lighting skills.

Both of you contribute immensely to this section, the theory you explain in layman's terms and examples you provide are astounding and appreciated.

I get the impression you dont like either Garry or Lencarta which is your business but how's about trying to ease up on on the sniping?

Well that's just not true. My frequent posts recommending Lencarta bear that out. And as it happens, Garry and I had a long telephone conversation this last weekend where I hope I was able to do him and Lencarta a small favour, just as he has done me good turns in the past.

The point is that this is not an advertising forum, and the primary objective of this thread is to promote Lencata and their courses (which I have also posted in support of) in the thinly veiled guise of lighting advice. If it had been made by a newcomer, the mods would have run them out of here sharpish. It's against the spirit of TP, and I know I'm not alone in this view.

If it was headed 'Advertiser Promotion' as it would be in any other media, then everyone would know the context. And if Garry and Jonners had the Lencarta logo as their avatar and a sig which said something along the lines of "I work for them. I try to give helpful and unbiased advice, but in the interests of full commercial disclose, you should be aware of this fact" then there would be absolutely no problem.

And actually, if that gave license to make a few more instructional/promotional posts like this, then that would be good all round

 

[JonathanRyan]

Seriously. I'm sick of this.

 

[alpina]

Like I said you are both great resources on here. I appreciate the detailed explanations you both take the time to give.

If my perception is wrong I apologise wholeheartedly.

 

[gman]

To lighten the mood a little.....

 

[Mahoneyd187]

To lighten the mood a little.....

Thanks for that I just spilled coffee on my keyboard LOL

 

[HoppyUK]

Seriously. I'm sick of this.

Lighten up mate. It's nothing personal

 

[Garry Edwards]

To lighten the mood a little.....

Wonderful!
And better than my avetar

The point is that this is not an advertising forum, and the primary objective of this thread is to promote Lencata and their courses (which I have also posted in support of) in the thinly veiled guise of lighting advice. If it had been made by a newcomer, the mods would have run them out of here sharpish. It's against the spirit of TP, and I know I'm not alone in this view.

Well, my very first post (IIRC) on this forum was canvassing opinion on possible courses, I didn't know it was against the rules at the time and the mods didn't kick me out, in fact they didn't even delete the thread.

I can see why Jonathan is sick of this, all he did, as far as I can see, is to post example lighting pics on a lighting forum. Lencarta doesn't make any money out of these lighting workshops (the reverse in fact) and Jonathan is paid only for his time in hosting his Lencarta workshops, he isn't paid to promote Lencarta, either on this forum or elsewhere.

Both Jonathan's and my signatures clearly state the connection with Lencarta, so that people are fully aware of our connection. That seems to me to be honest and straightforward.

True, I could have the Lencarta logo as my avetar, but my 'advertiser status' is in fact so that I can promote my Photolearn tutorials, so really I should have the Photolearn logo if any logo is needed. Lencarta is also an advertiser on this forum, so I suppose the logo wouldn't go amiss there, but very few posts are made in the Lencarta identity.

And anyway, Jonathan has a lot of posts and from memory very few of them have anything to do with Lencarta. And my guess is that most of my own posts have nothing to do with Lencarta either, although I'm not anal enough to actually count them

Advertisers pay a monthly fee that allows them to promote their interests within a defined and limited framework. I try to keep within that framework, and the one time I slipped up on it my thread was deleted, which is fair enough - so you can see that I don't ask for, want or get, any special treatment.

 

[HoppyUK]

Garry, I think you're missing the point. The quality and unbiased nature of your posts, and Jonathan's, are not in question. It is simply a matter of open disclosure.

Like MPs in parliament asking entirely legitimate questions about subjects in which they have a commercial interest. It is quite right that they should be allowed to do that, and only right that the context should be clear.

Personally, I don't see the problem, and actually being completely upfront about things would allow you to do more - if you wanted to.

 

[rogermbyrne]

I'm not sure what the issue is, don't both Jonathan and Garry have disclosures in their signatures? And they pay for Advertising rights.....

 

[Mahoneyd187]

Has a Lencarta section been discussed before at all? I'm not wanting to stick my nose in and imply that there should or shouldnt be, I think though that perhaps the Lencarta guys would have an easier time and alot of freedom to post what they want in there about the courses and products, and still be able to provide unbiased information on technical stuff outside of it in the lighting section. A clear divide between advertising and impartial advice may be of benefit to all, and leave them less succeptible to interpretations otherwise.

For the record, I am being neutral here, I've been in the petty arguments before and it doesn't interest me

 

[kiteninja]

Has a Lencarta section been discussed before at all? I'm not wanting to stick my nose in and imply that there should or shouldnt be, I think though that perhaps the Lencarta guys would have an easier time and alot of freedom to post what they want in there about the courses and products, and still be able to provide unbiased information on technical stuff outside of it in the lighting section. A clear divide between advertising and impartial advice may be of benefit to all, and leave them less succeptible to interpretations otherwise.

For the record, I am being neutral here, I've been in the petty arguments before and it doesn't interest me

Like the Digital Rev section of the forum.

 

[gman]

Has a Lencarta section been discussed before at all?

An excellent idea... will make it much easier to find 'em

 

[craigm]

If you look at the price of these courses they are more of a giveaway than advertising Lencarta

PS
And what you get out of attending one of the courses is amazing

 

[Richard King]

So yesterday I was running a training course for Lencarta. I don't shoot much on these courses, more sort of wave my arms and tease people.

It's very hand on - delegates set up the lights according to rules and clues they get given - but it's really their own work. Then I nick the odd shot and claim it's mine (If you think about it, that's the opposite of lots of training courses....).

Anyway, couple of pics I robbed. Shot by me but they did the hard work. All in a tiny hotel meeting room with an inadequate ceiling.

1. Low key.

2. High key. A.k.a chavground (That's actually a wedding dress she's wearing - the mind boggles)

3. (Hardest challenge of the day) environmental portrait.

You know, I think they did OK

Oh and a massive thanks to Amy who stepped in at the last minute after the model I'd booked broke her leg....

And then Amber popped down for a couple of snaps.

She's going to model for us on the next course on 10th April. (I believe there are a couple of spots still available....). Yeah, looking forward to people lighting her hair correctly (in fairness, delegates had set a hairlight for Amy and a veil she turned out not to be wearing...)

Stuff the politics.. those are 4 excelent and (compared to eachother) different shots, and its quite rare to get such varience on such a short course

 

[Duncan.F]

Hi Guys,
I went on the course at Maidstone, really enjoyed it and learned a great deal. For the record there was no attempt to push Lencarta products before, during or after the course.
I really don't understand the unhappiness about Garry using the forum as a 'thinly disguised' medium for promoting his products. Its not thinly disguised its b****y obvious and clearly in the rules otherwise it would be canned by the mods.
What I dislike is those who interject with vitriolic and unpleasant comments,[not only on G & P's but others to] I have been on the receiving end of a few and its particularly unpleasant when its undeserved. Debate, listening to alternative rules and p**s taking are healthy and good fun. Its just where a few, [a very few] occasionally take a very personal view.
In the context of this thread perhaps it would be better and more balanced if we had someone attached to Bowens or Elinchrom posting as well?

Dunc

 

[kiteninja]

Hi Guys,
I went on the course at Maidstone, really enjoyed it and learned a great deal. For the record there was no attempt to push Lencarta products before, during or after the course.
I really don't understand the unhappiness about Garry using the forum as a 'thinly disguised' medium for promoting his products. Its not thinly disguised its b****y obvious and clearly in the rules otherwise it would be canned by the mods.
What I dislike is those who interject with vitriolic and unpleasant comments,[not only on G & P's but others to] I have been on the receiving end of a few and its particularly unpleasant when its undeserved. Debate, listening to alternative rules and p**s taking are healthy and good fun. Its just where a few, [a very few] occasionally take a very personal view.
In the context of this thread perhaps it would be better and more balanced if we had someone attached to Bowens or Elinchrom posting as well?

Dunc

I think one of the problems possibly could be that he does say he is not part of Lencarta and is only employed for his technical knowledge and experience, I think some of the gripe was that he should openly say he is here to promote, advertise & push the products be it on the sly or just out right go for it.

If you notice that every thread where someone asks for advise on a lights Garry is 9/10 the first person to post with a Lencarta related product, Yet he doesn't work for them parsay.

Also just because they do not openly try and push products onto you during a Sponsored course does not mean there is some intention or influence to get you to buy that product, I'm sorry call me sceptic but there is no one out there that would fund a course where they don't make any money if there wasn't a hidden agenda, I don't care who you are or what your intentions are.

I go on free Solid Works course, they don't cost me a penny I get a days worth of free training using there software & a lunch in the middle as well all for nothing, then at the end of the day they give you a little leaflet with some more information and how to order upgrades or more seats for the software, ok so they didn't openly force you to buy the software but at the end of the day they didn't offer me the chance to buy SolidEdge which is a direct competitor.

I may have the wrong end of the stick here so I will apologise if so (I also have no axe to grind for the record)

 

[Garry Edwards]

I think one of the problems possibly could be that he does say he is not part of Lencarta and is only employed for his technical knowledge and experience, I think some of the gripe was that he should openly say he is here to promote, advertise & push the products be it on the sly or just out right go for it.

I'm getting a bit tired of this, I've explained my position with Lencarta time and time again. Anyone who doesn't want to read my posts doesn't have to, in fact they can click on 'ignore' if they want to.

For the record, I have never said that I am not part of Lencarta and I have never said that I am employed for my technical knowledge & experience. I am not employed by them at all, never have been and never will be. I'm a self employed advertising & commercial photographer and Lencarta is a major client. They pay me a fixed monthly fee to do their photography, advise both them and customers on techie issues and help them to develop future products. I also provide customer support. It isn't part of my brief to push Lencarta products, what I do do, on this forum and elsewhere, is to answer questions on studio lighting. If I am asked specific questions about Lencarta then yes, of course I'll answer and also link to suitable products on the website, and if I feel that Lencarta is the right answer for a particular problem then I'll suggest it, as I also suggest other makes when I feel that they are the right answer.

I'm not a whore, if I don't believe in a product I won't recommend it to anyone. And although I don't speak for Jonathan Ryan, I'm convinced that he has much the same attitude. Jonathan started recommending Lencarta products before he became a tutor for the Company, at that time he was an ordinary customer like everyone else. He has also recommended competitive products from time to time and he continues to do so. Why shouldn't he recommend products when people ask questions? What he (and I) are trying to do is to give useful info to people who ask questions.

Also just because they do not openly try and push products onto you during a Sponsored course does not mean there is some intention or influence to get you to buy that product, I'm sorry call me sceptic but there is no one out there that would fund a course where they don't make any money if there wasn't a hidden agenda, I don't care who you are or what your intentions are.

There is absolutely no hidden agenda. Some of the people who come on these lighting workshops end up buying Lencarta, some don't. Some have already bought Lencarta, others have already bought other makes. What Lencarta gets out of these lighting workshops is good PR (or bad PR if the people aren't happy with them) and, at the same time, they are helping to educate and inform people. Lots of firms, in all fields, make money out of their business and give something back in the form of advice or training and Lencarta is no different. What exactly is wrong with a Company paying experienced pro photographers to help people to get the best from whatever equipment they have? And if some of those people end up buying from the Company, what's wrong with that?

Quite a lot of TP members have been to lighting workshops at my own studio and they've seen equipment from other manufacturers in use too, every one of them will tell you that the only 'pushing' of Lencarta involves me wearing a Lencarta sweatshirt (if it isn't too hot) and telling people that now I've pointed to the logo on the sweatshirt Lencarta won't get mentioned again.

And if people involved with other makes want to post on this forum then that's fine by me, as long as TP are happy with it. AFAIK only one firm has been stopped from posting, and that was a decision taken by TP for reasons that were not connected with the products he sells.

 

[Matt]

Both Garry and Lencarta pay to advertise on this site, I'm not prepared to divulge how much and what for but they don't breach our rules. Garry posts lots on this forum, he recommends a lot of other products as well as lencarta and offers a great deal to members other than just the lencarta party line. If you don't line it, put him on ignore.

Other companies have tried to circumvent the rules, and also tried to have negative comments about their products removed, we dont accept that kind of behaviour, when offered the chance to advertise, other companies have failed to put their money where their mouths are.

I'd rather have people like Garry, who are open about what they do and are happy to share what they know rather than individuals with hidden agendas, they are easy to spot, you call them out on their activities and suddenly they vanish. We've been doing this Internet forum thing for many years, we know all the tricks, we've seen it all before.

We would welcome ANY companies that want to advertise, get your wallets out and you can do it, but don't expect us to put up with shills who don't disclose their intentions. Also, if you choose to stick your head above the parapet, you take the rough with the smooth.

If you've used other brands then write us a review, we will put it in the reviews.

 

[nerual]

Having been on a Lencarta course I can assure anyone that there was no hard sell. No leaflets, no hassling emails. It was more of we are using Lencarta kit, I like it, its a good price, now lets take some photo's.

The use of the lights and mods in itself is enough to show how the kit works, everyone knows that Lencarta are backing the courses. I'm looking forward to taking more of these courses - had there been a hard sale we would have switched off.

As for Gary, I emailed him prior to making a purchase with a question and his answer had nothing to do with Lencarta kit. In fact he told me to purchase an alternative product that was more suited.

Everyone has their own opinions for personal reasons. Mine are based on personal experience (Including being happy with the Lencarta kit I purchased)

 

[kiteninja]

Ok last questions,

So why doesn't lencarta have a section in say the trading section like Digital Rev ?? where people can direct there lencarta related questions, maybe advertise new products, have question threads and such I think it would be a pretty good idea to open there own section not sure if other people agree.

 

[Matt]

Lencarta gave been offered further options, but if they do take it, then there would still be people complaining as Garry would still be posting in this forum answering questions on lighting as he does now.

 

[Marcel]

This isn't about Lencarta, this is about Garry.

TBH It's getting tiresome now.

 

[HoppyUK]

This isn't about Lencarta, this is about Garry.

TBH It's getting tiresome now.

With respect Marcel, the way I'm seeing things, this is actually not about Garry or Lencarta at all. And TBH, if it's getting tiresome, that is because TP has not addressed the fundamental problem which has been popping up now and again for a year or two now, and this will probably continue to happen if it keeps getting just swept under the carpet.

The problem, as I see it, is commercial posts being presented and appearing as non-commercial posts. It's as simple as that, but a fundametal principle. In other media, this sort of thing runs under a heading 'advertising promotion' or similar, and is subject to strict industry rules.

I have no objection at all to commercial stuff on here, but it must be clear and above board - and it is not. After a lot of fuss about this before, Garry started using a separate Lencarta user name but only made a handful of posts, and he has not used that name for over a year. Why not? Simple solution, already in place, could be used by both Garry and Jonathan when appropriate.

 

[Matt]

With respect Marcel, the way I'm seeing things, this is actually not about Garry or Lencarta at all. And TBH, if it's getting tiresome, that is because TP has not addressed the fundamental problem which has been popping up now and again for a year or two now, and this will probably continue to happen if it keeps getting just swept under the carpet.

The problem, as I see it, is commercial posts being presented and appearing as non-commercial posts. It's as simple as that, but a fundametal principle. In other media, this sort of thing runs under a heading 'advertising promotion' or similar, and is subject to strict industry rules.

I have no objection at all to commercial stuff on here, but it must be clear and above board - and it is not. After a lot of fuss about this before, Garry started using a separate Lencarta user name but only made a handful of posts, and he has not used that name for over a year. Why not? Simple solution, already in place, could be used by both Garry and Jonathan when appropriate.

the simple solution here then, is instead of constant bitching, backbiting and whinging in threads, why dont people report them if they feel they cross the line? Ive checked, and there was 1 thread, yes, 1 thread, reported.

Garry is a paid advertiser, he pays for threads and a banner, Lencarta also pay for threads and a banner - they have the lencarta account and if required Garry posts through it.

If you dont like something report it, and we'll look at it, but this constant sniping is really ****ing me off, good threads are being sabotaged by some of the petty comments and snide remarks.

 

[HoppyUK]

the simple solution here then, is instead of constant bitching, backbiting and whinging in threads, why dont people report them if they feel they cross the line? Ive checked, and there was 1 thread, yes, 1 thread, reported.

Garry is a paid advertiser, he pays for threads and a banner, Lencarta also pay for threads and a banner - they have the lencarta account and if required Garry posts through it.

If you dont like something report it, and we'll look at it, but this constant sniping is really ****ing me off, good threads are being sabotaged by some of the petty comments and snide remarks.

Matty, your reply doesn't read well to me. Not one bit. It doesn't address anything, and actually raises other issues. I don't want to make a fuss about it, so we'll just agree to differ.

 

[Matt]

Matty, your reply doesn't read well to me. Not one bit. It doesn't address anything, and actually raises other issues. I don't want to make a fuss about it, so we'll just agree to differ.

well you have now, youve made a really big fuss.

ive said this a million times, if you dont like a post/thread, then report it, if you have a problem with site operation, use the contact us feature. If there is a legal issue you think we are missing, then contact us. we have specific ways of getting in touch, but bitching and making vague accusations on the forum isnt the right way to do it

This constant negativity from some people on the forums is very destructive and im getting very tired of having to justify what we do all the time.