This is NOT a police van

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4hero

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I attended the Bathgate Highland Games, West Lothian, Scotland, yesterday and an interesting day it was too.

30 seconds after I took this shot I was stopped by two police officers.



Mr. Copper: who are you
Me: Neil
Copper: why are you taking photos of the police van (just of the left of this shot)
Me: I was taking a shot of the Dinky Donuts van
Copper: can I have your details anyway
Me: Why do you need my details, I'm in a public place?
Copper: well, it's been reported that someone has been taking photos of the police and army
Me: Is that illegal in a public place?
Copper: no, but what with terrorism and all that (the usual crap) I'd just like to check your details
Me: Is terrorism not just an excuse to stop me? Seems a bit lame when we are in a Highland Show (picture this, men in kilts tossing cabers, men with bagpipes, people eating candy floss)...
Copper: No, but I'd just like to check your details anyway
Me: reluctantly passes over details

The girl taking my details was mighty fine about the whole thing, where the guy (should have got his badge number) was a total knobend.

Why the hell do we have to go through this crap just because I carry 2 camera's with big lenses?

Since it happened, around 9 hours ago, I have been thinking long and hard about what more I should have said and done. Next time I WILL BE MORE PREPARED :bang:
 
yep sounds like todays society gone mad, just goes to prove what a nanny state we are turning into, not to mention he was a jobs worth with nothing better to do!
 
You could always try the tack of asking them for their details first and a number you can call to verify they are actually a genuine police officer - and then insist the operations centre call the officer to verify it is actually them on duty. I personally never give out my details to anyone, including police, without verifying they are genuine first. If they object then just walk away (anyone remember the police advice to vulnerable motorists if they are too scared to stop for a police car - don't stop, drive to the nearest police station instead)...

Don't forget there's been many a case of bogus officials and it's not an unreasonable request given ID theft risks etc... And of course the reversed process may just be enough to tilt them towards thinking it's too much trouble to bother with, providing it's done with tact and politeness etc.
 
Did he tell you under what authority he was requesting your details (Police cannot request your details for no reason).

If it was under the Terrorism Act 2000, then it is classed as a "Stop" and you should have been told this, and been given a receipt.

I would complain if I were you. Yes, they were just doing their job, but they must do it properly.
 
Write to the Chief Constable and make a formal complaint. The mountain of paperwork will cause the CC to think about properly briefing his force on this matter. Don't worry about not having plod's number - just refer to him as PC knobend.

Taking this back to basics, how the hell does a photo of a police van in any way help a terrorist?

Maybe you stumbled on an MI5 surveillance operation, Operation "Donut Watch"?
 
boroboyben said:
Hope you don't mind but i so had to do it :D

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn24/BenJohnRobert/Photoshops/Policephoto.jpg
Click to expand...

you'll get the noose for that :nuts:

shows you how utterly ridiculous it is, like you'd need a picture to know what a police van looks like, makes me wonder if they're doing this off their own bat or if they've been given instructions to stop and question people taking photographs.

They don't seem to understand IF a terrorist wanted a photo of their police van it would be done in such a way they wouldn't have a clue it had been taken.

I was living in Warrington in 1993 when the IRA blew 2 kids to pieces so I have pretty close experience of terrorism, bans on photography and video surveillance wouldn't have stopped the bomb going off in warrington as all that would have been captured was a man putting a McDonalds bag in a bin
 
inaneredstripe said:
Mr. Copper: who are you
Me: Neil :lol::lol::lol:
real waste of time , some of em.
do you look like a terrorist? now , if it was america, you,d be arrested for shooting the donut van. police staple diet and all that.
i would have been peeved too.
Click to expand...

I think you'd be arrested anywhere if you shot a donut van :nuts: :gag:

But in all seriousness.
I've had my details taken twice, both were times that I was sat there, genuinely doing nothing.

The first time: My old school has a playground with several wooden huts, perfect for chilling out in at night with your mates when you don't want to hang around on street corners. We were sat there minding our own business, when next thing you know community support police officers came round the corner and asked us what we were doing. We replied, "Sitting here :S" and then they were like, "Okay, but we have to take your details."
I got a bit cocky and said, "Why do you have to take our details? Under what grounds?" and I think the police officer was a bit peeved that a youngster questioned his authority, and he got a bit arsey with me, replying, "When we stop anyone on the street we have to take details of it, due to the fact that we need proof that we question a variety of people, so there is your answer."
He then took our details, so now I'm on police record. Wonderful.

Second time: My secondary school has an absolutely quality roofing system. Its like a maze, its brilliant. So me and my mates decided to explore it. It was very easy to climb up, and so we did it often. I was caught once by the superintendent who told me to get down or I'd call the police. And then later on we climbed up there, and sat in this little alcove and listened to some music. Weren't harming anyone, although admittedly we were tresspassing. We got down, and went to get a drink from the local leisure centre, and then went and sat on a field. Twenty minutes later, police car turned up, and a policeman got out and came over to us, and said, "Have you lads been on the roof?" and we replied, "No"
The policeman said, "Are you sure?", we said, "Yes"
The policeman raised his eyebrows, walked off to 'look around the school'.
He walked back and says, "So it WAS you guys"
We all looked a bit scared, and admitted we were on the roof. He then gave us a lecture about lying, and then said, "Well, admittedly, you were just sitting there, but still. I have to take your details."
 
they will know who was working there at the time so if you give a discription they could tell you who it was. i hate things like this though becuase is it worth it when they are going to do nothing about it so it makes no diferance.
 
Ah...... but this is a Police van..... plain clothes division! You've just blown their cover :naughty:
 
Police right to stop in Scotland...

A police officer can stop and question you in the street or a park or other outside place if s/he suspects you of committing an offence or believes that you have witnessed a possible offence.


If you are stopped and questioned, you are expected to be co-operative. You must give your name and address to the officer if asked for it. If you don’t, this is an offence and you could be arrested.


If the police suspect you of committing an offence they may ask you for an explanation of your behaviour. You have the right to refuse to give an explanation.


Once you have given the police your name and address it is up to them to decide whether they want to ask more questions. If they don’t then you should be allowed to go. If they do want to ask you more questions and they suspect you of having committed a crime they can:-
ask you to attend voluntarily at the police station to help with enquiries; or
detain you for questioning for up to 6 hours; or
arrest you for allegedly committing an offence.
Click to expand...
 
Actually, thinking about this a little more dispassionately.

Did you pay an entrance fee? Was the entire location 'contained' or reasonably cordonned? If so then you were probably in less of a public place than you think you were! I bet the organisers had to pay sort of 'staging' insurance as if they were on private property.

It's a bit like being in a shopping arcade/mall. Not quite what it seems or as public as you think :thinking:
 
Thanks for all the support, tips, and tricks folks. I will be prepared more for when this happens again ;)

Chuckles, I did pay an entrance fee, but there were no signs saying "No papparazi lenses or photography". The park where the games were held is normally a public place, they just charged £3 due to the event being on.

Steep, I was really close to walking away, but thought twice (as I have nothing to hide really, and could not be bothered with extra hassle, annoying as it is)

Andy_Fozzy, I did show them the shots, made no difference.

Marcel & 2blue4u, I am tempted to complain...

boroboyben, very good, I like it :clap:

These were the two officers in question, should have got a shot from the front :thinking:

2539282199_9f9186de71.jpg


2539284583_6b492e551d.jpg
 
Personally when i go somewhere and about to take photos i ask them is it OK so if i did get stopped i can tell the cops where to go. I never feel right around the police they make me feel uncomfortable.

Your welcome i love photoshop :naughty:
 
how long till they are shooting an innocent photographer huh...
 
They were just annoyed you were photoingf their canteen
 
im sure its not illegal to take a photo of a police van anyway.

Defo worth writing in to the local cop shop and asking for a copy of the details as to why you were stopped.

//Bod
 
foodpoison said:
...next thing you know community support police officers came round the corner and asked us what we were doing...
Click to expand...

Community B****y Support Officers! Not even REAL policemen. The country is being policed by a bunch of jumped up 'Warden Hodges' wannabe's.

There's a bloke in our town who was a traffic warden for about twenty years, despised for his unnecessarily vigorous enforcement of the parking regulations. I saw him last week with a 'Community Support Officer' vest on, strutting around like John flaming Wayne... Heaven help us all! :bang:
 
Of course, were I a terrorist looking to do some sly recon work on a target, i'd spend £3000 on the most conspicuous looking camera gear I could lay my hands on too... :S
 
gf, the more people who know about these things, the better ;)

Terrorists: Carry a point and shoot and you'll never be a suspect!
 
Know about what things? A police officer asked you for your details, something he has every right to do and you have no right to refuse.

Did he stop you taking photographs?

wrestle you to the ground and slap the cuffs on?

call for armed response backup?

Walk away and let you get on with the rest of your day?
 
So you are happy for your right to take photos in public be questioned when it is perfectly legal to do so Steep? It's understandable if I was committing an offence of sorts, I would have to give my details over.

You seem to be in the minority mate.
 
A police officer has a perfect right to ask you for your details and you have an obligation to supply them. I see nothing wrong with that.

It would have been very different though if you had been told to delete your images/hand over your film/stop taking pictures, and unfortunately some police officers seem to be nearly as paranoid about 'national security' as their counterparts in America's Homeland Security.

I believe that police community support officers have far less rights, they need to call a real police officer if real policing needs to be done. I have a shooting friend who was stopped by 2 community support officers because he was carrying his shotgun at the edge of his own land, which of course he was perfectly entitled to do. He said that after the courteous 'Good morning Sir, wonder if we could have a word?' He was asked to hand over his gun. By this time he had left his land and was standing on a public bridleway. He asked them whether they were police officers, the reply was 'We work for North Yorkshire police'
Yes, but are you a police officer?
'We're police community support officers'
'Why do you want me to hand it over?'
'Normal procedure sir, if someone has a gun we ask them to hand it over while we talk to them'
'in that case you'll need to show me your section 2 firearms certificate first, I would be breaking the law if I allowed you to touch it otherwise' I'm willing to show you my certificate if that will help, and you can check the serial No. against the certificate but I can't hand it over'
'If you don't hand it over you'll be arrested sir'
'You'll have to call a police officer if you want to do that, and if a police officer attends I'm allowed to hand it to him'

It seems that there was then a radio conversation out of his earshot and they then left.

The point is that if he hadn't stood his ground he would have committed a serious criminal offence...
 
Foodpoison Scotland may be different to E & W regards giving your details when requested by the police, so Steep may be correct.
 
Just a word of caution here.

Steeps linked legislation specifically says the officer must believe you've committed an offence or he must suspect you of having committed an offence. That means a specific offence - not waving a camera around whatever suspicions it may give the officer. The law in Scotland is different in many respects to the rest of the UK, but you really have to beware of researching legislation on the internet - the only authority you can really go by is the actual legislation (The Act) itself, which is often misquoted or misinterpreted.

You would probably have been perfectly entitled to refuse to give the officer your details in this instance, which would have thrown him/her into a quandary as to what to do next. :D However, I don't see a big problem here - the officers aren't threatening to arrest the OP or confiscate the camera, or demand deletion of images - all situations I've encountered. They've simply asked the OP to provide details, but otherwise haven't stopped him taking shots or interfered with what he was doing. There's no bigger defender of personal liberties than me, but I'd be quite happy to provide personal details as long as the officers were reasonable in their manner, which they seem to have been.

They're obviously going to later run the details through the PNC and discover you have no known links to terrorist organisations. They've done their job and you got your pictures. :shrug:
 
4hero, being in a minority doesn't make me wrong, in this instance the police didn't stop you taking photographs did they? at least you don't say so in your initial post. It seems to me they were just checking you out. I don't doubt for a minute that it disturbed and upset you.

foodpoison, I quoted the 'law' in Scotland earlier in the thread, here's the important bit again - If you are stopped and questioned, you are expected to be co-operative. You must give your name and address to the officer if asked for it. If you don’t, this is an offence and you could be arrested.

/edit for spelling...
 
btw that 'law' quote comes from the Citizens Advice Bureau web site.
 
Streep mate, youi really have to read that bit of legislation and interpret it properly.

From your original post...

Police right to stop in Scotland...

A police officer can stop and question you in the street or a park or other outside place if s/he suspects you of committing an offence OR believes that you have witnessed a possible offence.

'An offence' means theft, assault or any number of specific offences. If that element is not present, then none of the rest of the quoted legislation applies, and you have no obligations to comply with.
 
I got stopped on my way home the other week on my bike. The lady cop was asking me questions like 'Where have you been, what is in the bag, etc. I told her my camera and stuff and she was asking questions like when did you buy it, where from, etc and then moved onto my bike, when did you buy it, where from etc. Ridiculous. She had me for about half an hour and was asking other questions like what road am I on now as I usually work out of Blackpool at which point I told her to do her job and asked if it was OK to leave as I had fulfilled my duty and now it was time for her to do hers.
 
My problem is, is that I don't mind co-operating with the police in anyway I can. I have the utmost respect for the law, and the officers that are tasked to uphold it.

What I don't agree with is the reasoning why he was stopped and asked for his details. I don't believe it was justified (going off the info above anyway).
If he was driving slowly around the back streets behind a government building at 4am, yes, stop him and ask him for his details.
At a public event with a camera, taking photos of a police van? No I dont think it is.
 
Steep said:
4hero, being in a minority doesn't make me wrong, in this instance the police didn't stop you taking photographs did they? at least you don't say so in your initial post. It seems to me they were just checking you out. I don't doubt for a minute that it disturbed and upset you.

foodpoison, I quoted the 'law' in Scotland earlier in the thread, here's the important bit again - If you are stopped and questioned, you are expected to be co-operative. You must give your name and address to the officer if asked for it. If you don’t, this is an offence and you could be arrested.

/edit for spelling...
Click to expand...

I know, I realised that when I was corrected. I thought the venue the OP was stopped at was in England, yet you were quoting Scottish law for an unknown reason. It wasn't I realised the venue the OP was at was in Scotland that it clicked. So, again, I apologise.
 
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