This CRB-check paranoia won’t stop another Soham

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KayJay

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Interesting read...

One of my hobbies is photography, so I took my camera to take a few “action shots” of my grandson. Ten minutes later I was approached by the manager, who said: “Can I ask you not to take photographs, it’s against the regulations. You have to get permission in writing from every parent of every child.”
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Shame the world is coming to this - poor fella was doing what we all do, taking photos of family members.
 
On a similar note, have you seen the trailers on Sky for the progrmame with that awful Lorraine Kelly? "A child goes missing in Britain every 5 minutes" Really? That's over 2000 a week.....
 
Flash In The Pan said:
On a similar note, have you seen the trailers on Sky for the progrmame with that awful Lorraine Kelly? "A child goes missing in Britain every 5 minutes" Really? That's over 2000 a week.....
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I could be wrong but I suspect that statistic probably includes children that get separated from their parents in Tesco for 5 minutes and have to go to Customer Services to have a shout out over the PA system. Surely there aren't 2,000 kids a week genuinely going missing. That's over 100,000 a year. That can't be true!!

I agree though, these CRB checks aren't going to stop children going missing at all. All it will do is stop genuinely nice people from volunteering to help with kids activities and the kids will lose out.
 
It's not new. I used to run a Boys Brigade company that had to close because of no staff, now my son's scout group faces the same problems.
 
Hang on - he was a policeman... Doesn't he know the law and feel confident enough to correct the manager?

I felt humbled. I am now a suspected paedophile — along, I fear, with millions of other parents and grandparents. I looked at the pictures I had taken. They were of my grandson making saves as his team came under pressure. I am sure he would have liked to look back on them in the future. Who knows, he may be England’s goalkeeper at a future World Cup, although it’s a remote chance. I deleted the photographs.
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I agree Byker, I think the story has been "sexed up" a little, in order to achieve the desired effect - outrage. Whilst there are horrific crimes taking place, these crimes have always happened, look at the Jersey care home, any number of schools and religious institutions, the Moors murderers.
We will soon have a situation where people just cannot be bothered to go through the CRB checks, or help out in many other ways. The government, helped by the media has created a aura of fear in society.
 
My friend just had a CRB check for work (3 weeks ago), and is now getting involved in a childrens activity scheme and has to have another CRB check done as the current one is out of date because it has been printed!

If this one comes into play they will have to have that done too!

I think its madness!
 
The CRB system that is currently in place shows good intention but is expensive and impractical. The fact you need one per organisation is a joke, but also ensures a check each time you sign up to something new, meaning that the checks are "up to the minute" in a sense.

The fact that they then last for 5 years is the real joke. It renders it not worth the paper its written on, as, in theory someone could end up convicted but still have a valid CRB check and number.

If they are to become compulsary, then it would make far more sense to have it run in a similar way to a drivers licence, which is a live piece of identification and information. But again that too is expensive.

I am an Explorer scout leader, and the scout association have been CRB'ing for years. As a scout group we ask our parents to get CRB'd when their kids join as a matter of course. It means far less hassle in the future should we need their help at all.
The press have blown the issue out of proportion as per usual, and the phrase damned if they do, damned if they don't spring to mind. No check, and the press would be going crazy, too strict a system of checks, and the press go crazy. its a no win situation.
I personally don't understand the people who get outraged at being checked, the invasion of privacy argument doesn't wash with me I'm afraid. If you have nothing to hide what's the problem?

Th bottom line as I see it is there needs to be CRB type check for youth movements and schools etc that is able to be up to date in an up to the minute style, and is not required for every organisation the individual joins, but is instead registered against the individual. Unfortunately it will probably have to come at a cost as it will cost to implement. Whilst being free would be nice, we'd still end up paying for it in our taxes.

Phew! rant/download over, sorry peeps!!
 
Steve Smith said:
I think in principle, it is a good idea but it should be a simple process and it should be free (for everyone).


Steve.
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Nothing like that comes free. Someone has to pay for it. In this case it'll be costing the tax payer millions.
 
-Rob- said:
Nothing like that comes free. Someone has to pay for it. In this case it'll be costing the tax payer millions.
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I think it should be a general cost to the taxpayer rather than an individual cost to the individual applicant. Otherwise, as was stated earlier: "all it will do is stop genuinely nice people from volunteering to help with kids activities and the kids will lose out".


Steve.
 
The new ISA vetting and barring scheme is one of the most screwed up pieces of legislation ever to come into being.

Found not guilty in court? The ISA can over-rule that and decide you probably did it anyway ... as well as checking out what you say on sites like this and anywhere else you happen to visit on the interweb.
 
gingerjon said:
as well as checking out what you say on sites like this and anywhere else you happen to visit on the interweb.
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Back to my earlier point of, if you have nothing to hide whats the problem?
 
Rob.Marsh said:
I am an Explorer scout leader, and the scout association have been CRB'ing for years...
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Before CRB checks, I thought the Scouting Association had their own database that police etc used to check? I believe it's still in existance
 
I have not heard that one, but then I have have only been an adult for the last 6 years, I took leadership at 18 in 2003.
I know that the old newspaper check was used before CRB checks.

Unless your refering to the old SID database, but that got taken offline a couple of years ago. It was a database of all members, with contact details etc but it didn't meet the latest Data Protection rules so it got ditched and a better system put in place.
 
Rob.Marsh said:
Back to my earlier point of, if you have nothing to hide whats the problem?
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Forgive me but I always find that comment a little naive. There's been plenty of examples of miscarriage of justice, from innocent photographers being challenged to innocent tube travellers being shot. Authority figures, being human, means mistakes are always possible. Add to that pressure for results, a culture of coverup and it escalates.

The current checks are a step in the right direction, but as with everything, where do you draw the line. 5 years between checks is possibly too long, but getting a new check for every organisation you're involved in is really rediculous. Either you pass the checks or you don't.
 
Rob.Marsh said:
if you have nothing to hide whats the problem?
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The problem is that here's a body that can over-rule the verdicts of courts, that can use hearsay and gossip as if it were actual evidence, that can make decisions based on perceptions of people's lifestyle ... all without any leave to appeal and with the power to wreck people's lives.

For starters.
 
Rob.Marsh said:
I have not heard that one, but then I have have only been an adult for the last 6 years, I took leadership at 18 in 2003.
I know that the old newspaper check was used before CRB checks.

Unless your refering to the old SID database, but that got taken offline a couple of years ago. It was a database of all members, with contact details etc but it didn't meet the latest Data Protection rules so it got ditched and a better system put in place.
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Nope, pretty sure they had one, but it was kept very quiet. Boys brigade knew about it and I was told cross checked their leaders against it. (I used to be a BB captain).
 
Flash In The Pan said:
On a similar note, have you seen the trailers on Sky for the progrmame with that awful Lorraine Kelly? "A child goes missing in Britain every 5 minutes" Really? That's over 2000 a week.....
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That includes the run-aways from childrens homes (and detention centers) and the children that are reported missing by family when they are late back from playing, they almost all turn up safely in a few hours, look at the fuss over Madeleine McCann, if 2000 were really falling off the edge of the world every week we'd never hear the end of it.
 
Rob.Marsh said:
I am an Explorer scout leader, and the scout association have been CRB'ing for years. As a scout group we ask our parents to get CRB'd when their kids join as a matter of course. It means far less hassle in the future should we need their help at all.
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What rubbish. There was a discussion on Radio 2 earlier and there were a number of people who had failed a CRB check and so could not get certain jobs yet were for very minor things they had done at 13 or 16 years old, some 20 or even 30 years ago.

Sure, you get done for murder, kiddie offences, drug dealing etc... you should be banged up for longer and lose rights but what about those who may have done something minor years ago?
 
Just to add, many people are annoyed about this as a matter of principle as much as the cost. Just because someone passes the CRB check could also mean little - many offenders simply havent got caught yet, so it would be easy to have a kiddie fiddler passing a crb check and being involved in scouts.
 
why :thinking: where is the problem with getting a CRB check

-Rob- said:
I agree though, these CRB checks aren't going to stop children going missing at all. All it will do is stop genuinely nice people from volunteering to help with kids activities and the kids will lose out.
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Byker28i said:
Forgive me but I always find that comment a little naive. There's been plenty of examples of miscarriage of justice, from innocent photographers being challenged to innocent tube travellers being shot. Authority figures, being human, means mistakes are always possible. Add to that pressure for results, a culture of coverup and it escalates.

The current checks are a step in the right direction, but as with everything, where do you draw the line. 5 years between checks is possibly too long, but getting a new check for every organisation you're involved in is really rediculous. Either you pass the checks or you don't.
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Your second point there I entirely agree with, your first I don see where your coming from. Your right mistakes happen, but I think your taking it a little to the extreme with your examples. We are talking about a criminal record check, not point a gun and deciding to fire at someone. If you get rejected for a criminal record you haven't got you can dispute it!

gingerjon said:
The problem is that here's a body that can over-rule the verdicts of courts, that can use hearsay and gossip as if it were actual evidence, that can make decisions based on perceptions of people's lifestyle ... all without any leave to appeal and with the power to wreck people's lives.

For starters.
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I should clarify here that my comments are based on the current system in place needing reform and not the new system the was presented for implementation here. I quite agree that if it discards the courts, whats the point of the court system.

Byker28i said:
Nope, pretty sure they had one, but it was kept very quiet. Boys brigade knew about it and I was told cross checked their leaders against it. (I used to be a BB captain).
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Then possibly you are going back before I became a scout leader but there is no such database now, and I have not heard of one being used in the past. I can't comment on Boys Brigade as they are a movement I have had no involvement in.


cambsno said:
What rubbish. There was a discussion on Radio 2 earlier and there were a number of people who had failed a CRB check and so could not get certain jobs yet were for very minor things they had done at 13 or 16 years old, some 20 or even 30 years ago.

Sure, you get done for murder, kiddie offences, drug dealing etc... you should be banged up for longer and lose rights but what about those who may have done something minor years ago?
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I notice you quoted me but I'm afraid I miss your point. Whats rubbish? We do ask parents to do a CRB check as it does make things easier. The Scout Associations policy requires all adults who help regularly to hold a valid CRB.

I see what you mean about those failing based on many years ago, or a regretful incident in their youth, but, all the same whatever they did (i missed the discussion) caused a flag to come up. What minor things were mention?

At the end of the day, whether you agree with the process, CRB's get done with children's interests in mind. What is better, doing something, or doing nothing?
 
POAH said:
why :thinking: where is the problem with getting a CRB check
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In reality, in a functioning society, there is no problem.

However, should you fail the Criminal Records Background check, for a minor offence that you comitted 30 years ago, the people who comissioned the check are not allowed to be told why. Same with security clearance.
Thus, you now have a stigma attached to you, you can no longer be allowed to be alone with these children/innocents.

Even if there is no reason why you might be at all a risk to them.
Even if there is a mistake made, and that criminal record isn't yours. Bad news spreads easily, you will quickly be tarred.
Even if you later clear the mistake, the bad news travels further than the good.

That said, I think the idea is a good one, it is kinda taken from the same ideas of security clearance, which I have been through several times.
The difference is that with the CRB you are talking Joe Public, with security, the people who get hold of the answers, are in general, more tight-lipped.
 
coldpenguin said:
In reality, in a functioning society, there is no problem.

However, should you fail the Criminal Records Background check, for a minor offence that you comitted 30 years ago, the people who comissioned the check are not allowed to be told why. Same with security clearance.
Thus, you now have a stigma attached to you, you can no longer be allowed to be alone with these children/innocents.

Even if there is no reason why you might be at all a risk to them.
Even if there is a mistake made, and that criminal record isn't yours. Bad news spreads easily, you will quickly be tarred.
Even if you later clear the mistake, the bad news travels further than the good.

That said, I think the idea is a good one, it is kinda taken from the same ideas of security clearance, which I have been through several times.
The difference is that with the CRB you are talking Joe Public, with security, the people who get hold of the answers, are in general, more tight-lipped.
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And lets not forget it was joe public who drove a pediatrician from his home because they mistakenly thought he was a pedophile (they couldn't tell the difference) think how the mob will react when you fail a CRB.
 
This twists convention to 'you are guilty until proven innocent'. The assumption is that if you don't or won't prove you are innocent, you must be hiding something.

Personally, I find this appalling and more about authorities covering themselves than any genuine effort to 'safeguard' children.

I already suffer from parents being horrified if I should talk to their child. It really has got to the point where any adult that converses with a child is virtually breaking the law.

It really is undermining our society and is changing things beyond recognition.

I do stress that I could pass the test before anyone thinks the worst, but I somehow thing I shouldn't have to.

Graham
 
I totally agree that it is all out of proportion. I was once at a boxing match and was confronted by the ref asking if i'd been CRB'd. I am 14. What do they think a 14 year old is going to be doing with photos of people boxing.I had been given permission by the person running the tournament to take and sell pictures. I was also told by the coach that by joining the club the parents had given permission to have pics taken.

What annoys me the most though is that there were hundreds of people in the crowd taking pics with point and shoots. Did they get asked for CRBs? No.

That was a lot of money that our business could have made that night that was prevented by stupid rules.
 
swanseamale47 said:
And lets not forget it was joe public who drove a pediatrician from his home because they mistakenly thought he was a pedophile (they couldn't tell the difference) think how the mob will react when you fail a CRB.
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Well, judging by your quote, the mob won't know what a CRB is anyway!
 
KayJay said:
Interesting read...
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I am a trainee teacher, I was recently working in a school which had a lot of issues. Whilst talking to the child protection officer for the school they enlightened me a little with regard to taking photo's of children.

The information I was given was basically that photos of children can result, although highly unlikely, with the the photos being used to identify the children. The reason that the parents/guardian has to give permission is to confirm that they are not on the child protection register. The logic goes something like this, some one takes a photo of the child it is then identified in some way from the photo, a previous abuser or someone who would put the children at risk is then able to identify the child and locate them based on information. This obviously isn't the only reason for not being allowed to take photos of children. But its a policy that many people aren't aware of thought it might be of interest.
 
peter_winkley said:
I am a trainee teacher, I was recently working in a school which had a lot of issues. Whilst talking to the child protection officer for the school they enlightened me a little with regard to taking photo's of children. . .
. . . This obviously isn't the only reason for not being allowed to take photos of children. But its a policy that many people aren't aware of thought it might be of interest.
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While I'm not sure how likely that is to actually be an issue, I can at least see some logic in it.

Some of the policies around the CRB checks are just ludicrous.
My friend is a 6th form teacher and in November he's taking a group of students on a skiing trip.

One of those students will turn 18 just before the trip starts and the school has been informed that this student will need to be CRB checked before being allowed on the trip.
Apparently he will be classified as an adult and as he will have access to minors . . . well he's obviously a potential risk :shake:

It's completely insane!
. . . I dread to think what will happen if he's caught snogging one of his classmates . . .
 
SarahLee said:
While I'm not sure how likely that is to actually be an issue, I can at least see some logic in it.

Some of the policies around the CRB checks are just ludicrous.
My friend is a 6th form teacher and in November he's taking a group of students on a skiing trip.

One of those students will turn 18 just before the trip starts and the school has been informed that this student will need to be CRB checked before being allowed on the trip.
Apparently he will be classified as an adult and as he will have access to minors . . . well he's obviously a potential risk :shake:

It's completely insane!
. . . I dread to think what will happen if he's caught snogging one of his classmates . . .
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interesting, as im 22, and im seeing a 16 year old girl, its not an issue, im glad i dont work with her!!!
 
blue max said:
This twists convention to 'you are guilty until proven innocent'. The assumption is that if you don't or won't prove you are innocent, you must be hiding something.

Personally, I find this appalling and more about authorities covering themselves than any genuine effort to 'safeguard' children.

I already suffer from parents being horrified if I should talk to their child. It really has got to the point where any adult that converses with a child is virtually breaking the law.

It really is undermining our society and is changing things beyond recognition.

I do stress that I could pass the test before anyone thinks the worst, but I somehow thing I shouldn't have to.

Graham
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however, regardless of my previous post, im a waiter, so i regularly come into contact with children, and as far as im aware, parents arent overly fussed about who talks with their child, to most people, its not that much of an issue.
 
I find the whole idea appalling. It's another manifestation of the government's Fear & Paranoia Department. Create, or exaggerate, a problem; wait for the tabloids and disinformation campaign to blow it even further out of proportion; and then, with great gravitas, introduce another unwanted and pointless law to satisfy the now thoroughly frightened public's appetite for more "safety and security".

The new law won't achieve anything of course, but it gets people used to the idea of applying for permission to do something perfectly legitimate, that has always been taken for granted, by submitting their particulars for "clearance" and having them captured in another database.

What is going to happen to all this information? How much of it will be lost, stolen or misused, together with the harvest of all the other data mining exercises going on? How will future governments use it? You may not have anything to hide right now, but do you really want every detail of your life recorded and filed away for some unknown purpose later on? It's time to put a stop to all this. Dismantle the spy cameras, repeal the legislation allowing virtually unrestricted surveillance and snooping activities, stop the police retaining fingerprints and genetic evidence taken from people who have never been convicted of any crime and stop encouraging people to view each other with fear and suspicion. Britain fought a major war against totalitarianism a couple of generations ago. It's still within living memory, and the freedoms so many died for are being slowly stripped away by our own government.
 
coldpenguin said:
Quite, but I suspect that they would know what to do if they heard a rumour that someone failed one though.
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Yep bad news travels faster than the speed of light. Somebody would tell somebody else you failed a child pervert safety check, and the mob with burning torches would be soon on the warpath. You have to remember these mindless idiots are looking for an excuse for trouble, thats all the excuse they need to make your life hell.
 
Why not just castrate all boys at birth and use genetics to populate - after all, we are all sex offenders who just havent been found guilty yet!!!
 
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