Thinking of trying 35mm (again)

StephenM

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Any advice on whether to try 35mm again? I've been disappointed in the past with my inability to create large prints from 35mm, and am wondering whether to try again. OK, what do I mean by "large prints"? In my case, 10x8/A4 as a reasonable "contact print" to judge potential and then 12x16/A3 or bigger for the "real thing". I should also add that I hate visible grain, and look for bags of fine detail.

How do you find 35mm stacks up against the larger sizes? I currently use 6x6, 6x7 and 5x4.
 
I've never really used the larger sizes, but have been happy with A4 and even A3 prints from good 35mm source material (eg Kodachrome, Delta 100) with good (home) scans. I like 35mm because of the ease of use and portability. The limiting factor in my photography is not the camera, the lens or the emulsion, it's me! So I can work away at my composition and technique before growing up into MF (bags of time, hey ;) )... But I suspect your standards are significantly different!
 
I've retried 35mm many times: chronologically from my F50 - F80, FM2n, F80, F5, FM3a over a 10 year span. A host of lovely, lovely cameras.

Always sold them. Always disappointed. If I ever reacquire any of them (FM3a and F5 hopefully one day) they'll be for collection rather than use.

I have tried 645 as well and, while I've not shot a whole roll yet, I suspect I'm going to be much happier with this format than 35mm.
 
Yes 35mm can go to 12X16 but you just have to be more careful with the film, spots, exposure, scratches and have a good lens also very good scanner....in fact 5ft wide on my monitor looks good on subjects with lots of detail, but maybe the grain would be more obvious on the sky and say plain buildings

e.g. lab produced photo, the white smudge is caused by my flash gun in copying...superia 200 and canon 28mm lens
 
I think the choice of film and developer can make the biggest gains in reducing grain.
I don't do grain either so I've spent a bit of time trying to minimize it, albeit mostly 120.
I think you're looking at 100 speed film or slower no matter what, and a sympathetic developer.
Whilst I've been chasing smooth 120, I have done some 35mm and was really surprised by the lack of grain in some portraits I did on AGFA apx 100 developed in Xtol.
The prints are only 10x8 but their clarity suggests there's plenty more magnification in the neg.
I dunno if its the film, Xtol or a combination of both but I've a mind to try Delta 100 because it does a great job on 400, in fact Delta 400 in Xtol might be worth a go...I dunno.
If you're talking colour......no idea.....not much grain in slide but you can't print it.
 
Black and white only, and I always use the slowest film I can get. My choice in 120 is PanF (or FP4 if I must use a fast film) and FP4 in 5x4. When I was using 35mm, I used PanF unless I was taking in available light, when I used HP3 (not a typo!). You're right to bring up the choice of developer though - I would have to use something other than Rodinal. I used to use Unitol in the past for 35mm.

I've liked APX100 in 120, and Adox KB14 in 35mm (a long time ago...).

I don't think I've used 35mm black and white seriously since the 1960s (apart from some half frame fun photography, which by definition wasn't serious).
 
Well, I never took 35mm very seriously due to varying results in the past, but those portraits on APX sat me up.
I might print one up 12x16 when I get back off my holidays..

ere, what about a scan ?
 
Back in the 1960s when I was using black and white negative film, I couldn't afford anything larger than 35mm. Then I switched to slides, and only came back to black and white photography when I got a Mamiya RB67.

Yes, I can scan - and that's the way I go these days. I fractured my elbow about 10 years ago, and couldn't safely manipulate my negatives and enlarger (safely for the negatives - no personal risk involved) and emptied my 12x16 Nova tank and started scanning and printing digitally. I haven't yet been back to darkroom printing since.

The nature of the subject makes a difference to how big you can print - some subjects hide imperfections because you're misdirected (for want of a better term) by the subject into not looking at the print.
 
Oh I see, I thought you wanted to wet print 12x16, anyway it doesn't matter the question about scanning was about providing an example of APX 35mm in Xtol, you see I don't scan much these days I want to wet print so the only example I have is a 10x8 wet print, which isn't very useful to you.
I'm scanning a frame now so we can see one way or the other if APX in Xtol is any better than anything else..:)
 
While we are on the subject of 35mm and to knock on the head the argument about a low Asda scan being only for 6X4" well yes if crap in then crap out...well I took a shot with a faulty lens (only the centre being sharp) and did a home print @ A4 and then scanned the print.
Using Asda scanned jpg..... Then A4 print...then print.scanned..
 
@StephenM

I've sent you a link to a straight dirty no sharpening no compression straight out the scanner 3000dpi 31mb tif of this image.
This is the first time I've seen it as a scan.


21e0qiu.jpg




you can use your likely levels of sharpening/digital workflow on it and maybe evaluate how big it could be printed before grain/artifacts become a problem
 
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ive not printed anything from film that big, you might be able to find the lines per mm on different films if you dig about, but you probably should be using 35mm cameras more for the enjoyment of them, rather than the results
 
It's a tough call, Stephen, but I think that you may be disappointed. It would be best to try it out 'on the side', to find your own conclusions. On the face of it, it seems a bit retrograde.
 
After examining John's image, I have to reluctantly agree. I know that in theory (never mind the practice) a full frame digital camera of 24 megapixels will beat 35mm; I know exactly what can be achieved with a 36 megapixel Sony a7r (I use my wife's!) and I'll do better using that and old lenses than 35mm film. (I also know that for black and white, I prefer the results from 6x7 to the a7r, and 5x4 is a different league altogether).

I was sorely tempted by our local photo dealers having a 35mm camera I'd always fancied at a price I could easily afford; and really wanted to try and justify it. I know that if I started collecting, I'd probably end up with a Canon F1, Minolta XM, Nikon F and F2, and Pentax LX all sitting around looking pretty (cameras arranged alphabetically, all have a design feayure in common). I already have a massive book collection (another 200 feet or so of bookshelf space might clear the floor of piles) and I couldn't possibly put cameras on bookshelves!

Given that I basically use cameras as a means to an end, it seems I'm better off staying put. I also suffer from a lack of discipline when photographing, and need a tripod to make me stop and actually think about what I'm doing. I don't find using a camera at eye level the best way for me to work (spotted the common factor in the listed cameras?).

Thanks for all the advice and help. I think I'm more likely to move up in format than down.
 
you could consider the inbetween formats, sprocket rocket, yashica 44 converted to 35mm, if you like sprocket holes
 
***know exactly what can be achieved with a 36 megapixel Sony a7r (I use my wife's!) and I'll do better using that and old lenses than 35mm film***

...but what I've read the A7 has problems with old wide angle lenses....sorta put me off it if ever I left film. So film still has a use for those lovely old WA lenses you can play with that the digi guys have problems with.
 
...but what I've read the A7 has problems with old wide angle lenses....sorta put me off it if ever I left film. So film still has a use for those lovely old WA lenses you can play with that the digi guys have problems with.

That may depend on the lens and what you're expecting / your standards. This photo was taken with an OM 21mm lens. There is a small amount of darkening at the corners, but nothing that can't be fixed. Colour fringing isn't apparent even at 100%. I've happily used a 17mm lens on the same camera, but can't quickly find an example.

View attachment 44298
 
Back in the days when I did wet photography the biggest i enlarged from 35mm was 10 x 8 any bigger was from6 x 7 negs
 
Half plate was usually fine; whole plate usually OK. 10x8 was hit and miss - sometimes OK, sometimes not. I did go up to 12x16 and they were soft - as were the cropped images that would have been 20x16 if I'd printed the whole negative.

[For those too young to remember - half plate - 4.75" x 6.5"; whole plate - 6.5" x 8.5"; 10x8 - 20.32cm x 25.4cm :D]

Edit to add - I'm referrng to prints from 35mm and not larger negatives. 10x8 wasn't a problem with larger negatives.
 
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Back in my 35mm film camera days it was rather a struggle to get really good sharp A4 prints. I developed and printed them myself. I didn't have the kit to do A3 prints, but to see whether it was worth upgrading my darkroom to A3 I did some A4 enlargements of half images to assess the quality. I was disappointed. I thought I probably needed better lenses, the very expensive kind I couldn't afford.

When I acquired a 14MP crop sensor DSLR with only one general purpose zoom I also acquired an optical mount converter to see what I could get out of the best of my old lenses. Of course the optical converter would degrade image quality somewhat. I was startled to discover that some of the old lenses with the mount converter would easily get really good sharp A4 prints, and with a bit of care good A3 prints, better than I'd ever got from film. I gave all my old darkroom kit to a young student photographer who was infatuated by the romantic chemistry and analogue ineffability of film.

It might well be possible that certain rather specialised 35mm films with careful specialised processing could produce bigger better prints than I now can with my 24MP crop sensor images. The point is that I've never had that equipment or skills. In my hands digital long ago easily surpassed the best image quality and detail resolution I could coax with great care from my own 35mm films. My only regret in giving away all my old darkroom stuff is that the trays would have come in handy for propagating seedlings in the greenhouse.
 
the wide angle issue pretty much only effects short flange lenses, so leica ultrawides etc
 
Back in my 35mm film camera days it was rather a struggle to get really good sharp A4 prints. I developed and printed them myself. I didn't have the kit to do A3 prints, but to see whether it was worth upgrading my darkroom to A3 I did some A4 enlargements of half images to assess the quality. I was disappointed. I thought I probably needed better lenses, the very expensive kind I couldn't afford.

When I acquired a 14MP crop sensor DSLR with only one general purpose zoom I also acquired an optical mount converter to see what I could get out of the best of my old lenses. Of course the optical converter would degrade image quality somewhat. I was startled to discover that some of the old lenses with the mount converter would easily get really good sharp A4 prints, and with a bit of care good A3 prints, better than I'd ever got from film. I gave all my old darkroom kit to a young student photographer who was infatuated by the romantic chemistry and analogue ineffability of film.

It might well be possible that certain rather specialised 35mm films with careful specialised processing could produce bigger better prints than I now can with my 24MP crop sensor images. The point is that I've never had that equipment or skills. In my hands digital long ago easily surpassed the best image quality and detail resolution I could coax with great care from my own 35mm films. My only regret in giving away all my old darkroom stuff is that the trays would have come in handy for propagating seedlings in the greenhouse.


You're conflating scanning with optical printing though. A well exposed frame on something no too grainy can be scanned by a decent operator on a good scanner to get about 20-25mp, this is different to how much you can optically enlarge the same frame. A good quality 14mp crop sensor will be broken if you attempt to wet print from it.... ;)

Most folk don't have the requisite equipment to squeeze this much data from a 35mm frame so 35mm gets a reputation for low quality, grainy images; especially when the scans are from a high street mini-lab.
 
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That would seem to imply that the lens(es) in a good scanner are capable of greater resolution than a top quality enlarging lens. Am I correct in drawing this conclusion, and can you point me to evidence of this? Apologies if this comes over as anything other than genuine curiosity about something I find totally unexpected.
 
That would seem to imply that the lens(es) in a good scanner are capable of greater resolution than a top quality enlarging lens. Am I correct in drawing this conclusion, and can you point me to evidence of this? Apologies if this comes over as anything other than genuine curiosity about something I find totally unexpected.

Based on Chris' post above he wasn't using a top quality enlarging lens.

My data on resolution is coming from Tim Parkin's article comparing Velvia in 6x7 with 36mp digital where hypothetical lines per mm are discussed giving a hypothetical 20-25mp depending on the film which I have no cause to doubt even if the reality is a little less. But based on those 20mp you'd have no problem making a 8x10.

I suspect this would be difficult to test, one would have to own both a well speced scanner and a good enlarger and take lots of photos of walls.
 
That would seem to imply that the lens(es) in a good scanner are capable of greater resolution than a top quality enlarging lens. Am I correct in drawing this conclusion, and can you point me to evidence of this? Apologies if this comes over as anything other than genuine curiosity about something I find totally unexpected.

Well the answer is irrelevant as Nikon, Minolta, Epson and others have not produced a 35mm scanner, at a price that ordinary amateurs can afford, that can equal a digital camera made in the last few years (maybe over 5 years?) .Dunno what the £50,000 scanners were\are like ;)
 
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Based on Chris' post above he wasn't using a top quality enlarging lens.

My own enlarger certainly wasn't. It was a Gnome to which I'd fitted a better quality second hand lens than the original. Can't recall the details. To try and see how much my enlarger (and its condenser, not just the enlarging lens) was affecting my quality I did try a few A3 prints on the giant enlarger of the Edinburgh Photographic Society. I got better contrast and microcontrast, punchier images, but where detail was far enough above the noise floor I was getting some, but not much better resolution.

My data on resolution is coming from Tim Parkin's article comparing Velvia in 6x7 with 36mp digital where hypothetical lines per mm are discussed giving a hypothetical 20-25mp depending on the film which I have no cause to doubt even if the reality is a little less. But based on those 20mp you'd have no problem making a 8x10.

I suspect this would be difficult to test, one would have to own both a well speced scanner and a good enlarger and take lots of photos of walls.

With my own enlarger I could get good 8x10s, and better ones from the Society's giant enlarger. Possibly what I now get from a 24MP crop sensor is only a little better than I could have coaxed from film, but I can now do it so much more easily, and at usefully higher ISOs.
 
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Must admit to being a little out off my depth with wet printing but if you were struggling for a4 optically whilst I've seen good quality prints at 15" on the long side from scanned 35mm. Though this was from a high end 35mm film scanner not a flat bed nor a high Street machine.
 
With my own enlarger I could get good 8x10s, and better ones from the Society's giant enlarger. Possibly what I now get from a 24MP crop sensor is only a little better than I could have coaxed from film, but I can now do it so much more easily, and at usefully higher ISOs.

Indeed, horses for courses and all that.
 
With my own enlarger I could get good 8x10s, and better ones from the Society's giant enlarger. Possibly what I now get from a 24MP crop sensor is only a little better than I could have coaxed from film, but I can now do it so much more easily, and at usefully higher ISOs.

Well, that's one difference between us. As soon as I could see that a better print could be made, I'd downgrade the "good" status of the inferior one!

There's been a lot to think about in these latest posts, and I'll have to go away and come back after more thought. I will make a couple of personal observations though. When I was printing 35mm black and white, I was using a Photax Paragon enlarger and a Wray 2" lens. I haven't printed 35mm black and white since getting Durst and LPL enlargers (for 6x7 and 5x4 respectively) and swapping to Companon and Rodagon lenses. This might make a difference to my perceptions.

What I will do is make a scan from a 35mm negative using a Plustek 120 film scanner, as that would give my the results I'd get if I were to use 35mm and scan.

I'm intending to reply on some of the resolution issues later, as well.
 
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What I will do is make a scan from a 35mm negative using a Plustek 120 film scanner, as that would give my the results I'd get if I were to use 35mm and scan.

I've read some suggestions that that particular scanner is not as great as its price might suggest... but I'm guessing you actually have one (or have access to one), so might well know better...
 
The universal rule in photography is that the less you enlarge, the better the result (a rule which will hold until the laws of physics are significantly rewritten to change the nature of light and allow perfect lenses and until films are capable of infinite resolution). Provided you don't enlarge too much, the results are acceptable. This applies with scanners as well as enlargers. I've used Epson flatbeds for film scanning for many years. I can't recall the first model I used, but if there was a 3200 it was probably that. I've moved up as they released newer models, and now have a V850. For 5x4 this meets my needs, and A2/20x16" prints are fine. But this is only the same degree of enlargement as a 6"x4" print from 35mm. Puts things into perspective, saying that, doesn't it?

The smaller the film size, the more resolution you need to extract the best from the smaller negative. As I said above somewhere, A3 prints from 6x7 are fine using the Epson, but 35mm is borderline. We do have an old Nikon Coolscan 2 SCSI film scanner, but whether due to my own ineptitude or the difficulty of scanning Kodachrome (it was bought to scan slides many, many years ago) it failed to impress. The Epson delivered better results for me. Anyway, Plustek were at the Photography Show, and wewre offering to do sample scans to demonstrate how their equipment performed with potential customers' own negatives. I went along to the stand armed with a negative and the best I could manage from the Epson loaded on a tablet to make a side by side comparison. The Plustek 120 produced better resolution; not a lot, but enough to make a visible difference. So, I'm not saying that it's great, just that it makes a slightly better job of scanning 6x7 (and by extension, 35mm) than the Epson flatbeds. For the degree of enlargement needed with 5x4, the Epson is fine; but the Plustek does give a little extra headroom with smaller negatives. I did put up the scans from Epson and Plustek on OneDrive for AshleyC to examine, but I've since removed them, and the Epson scan was hard to find originally.

I wasn't overly bothered about being able to improve on my scans with 5x4, because the print size I can get is fine; and, let's face it, if I decide I want a larger print I can always pay for a scan on a drum scanner, or, if my tastes change and I want everything at A -1 (or whatever twice A0 is) I can buy a camera using larger film and still use the Epson.

Anyway, apologies for the ramble. I don't know if the Plustek is as great as the price suggests, not having anything else to compare it with as a film scanner. It's better than than the Coolscan 2 (in my hands) and an improvement on the V700 (which is what the comparison scan was made on). As such, it gives a better result with 6x7. Is it worth it? Depends on how you view "worth it". For me, I lack the space for some of the drum scanners I know others here use, and the slight improvement is still an improvement.
 
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OK, I found the V750 scan. You can see the same negative scanned using the V750 and the Plustek 120 here. They are both colour negative, and I wasn't in the least bothered about getting the colour right, so ignore the marked differences. You'll also have to scale the V750 scan down to compare like with like (and also flip one of them horizontally!). The features I paid most attention to were the large rocks by the side of the road, and the partially obscured sign across the road from the reception block. It's Glen Nevis camp site, if anyone's interested.

The third scan isn't relevant to this thread - it's a 5x4 from possibly an Epson 4490 scanner.

Edit - the V750 is a large scan, and it's still uploading...

You may care to read my comments in post 765 in this thread.
 
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I found an article about comparing the V850 with some high end scanners, from Keith Cooper's Northlight Images site here. What I found most interesting is the picture of part of an exhibion in 2005, which shows a 6 foot wide print from a 4000 ppi scan of a 35mm negative!

The various 100% crops do suggest that this is pretty much the last amount of quality in the negative, I will admit. And the scene is probably not one where fine detail is important.
 
Thanks for that. I haven't come across this site before. The results from the Epsons and and Canon were pretty much as I'd expect - the tighter grain on the Canon is what I've seen when comparing Epson and Plustek.

I suppose it must be a few years ago now that I read an article in Professional Imagemaker where editor Mike McNamee and LF photographer Paul Gallagher compared the Epson V750 to a couple of different Imacon scanners, operated by two different people. As PG was not only using 5x4 but also using black and white film, it made for a close match to what I do. The brief summary of the tests was that the Imacon produced a sharper scan (but the Epson could be sharperned to greatly reduce the difference). The downside of this was that the Imacon rendered the grain rather too well in the sky and other areas of smooth tone, making the V750 better overall for this type and size of film.

A lot of my photos do depend on fine detail. There are some examples here if you're curious about what (and how) I photograph.
 
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