thinking of swapping to Canon !

Blackwijet

Blackwijet

Suspended / Banned
Messages
540
Name
Sue
Edit My Images
Yes
I currently have a Nikon D3s and D700 as backup - these are used mainly for equestrian events both indoors and outdoors. Indoors is causing me a problem!

One venue i shoot at locally has awful lighting, even during broad daylight I have to use ISO5000 to get a shutter speed of 640'ish with f2.8 (with D3s). Last weekend I gave up at about 3.30 as light was fading fast and even with the arena lights on I was lucky if I could maintain a shutter speed of 340 with ISO pushed to the max (12800 +)which was obviously no good for show jumping. I prayed for grey horses but naturally most of them were dark bays or blacks. I'll post some images later to show the problem but obviously noise was bad, camera seemed unable to lock on focus most of the time and when it did the noise just made it look out of focus.
I tried everything, matrix metering, spot metering, changing WB (I was getting desperate) shooting in RAW etc

On looking on websites of some other togs that shoot there and who I believe use Canon & yes they get a lot of noise but they seem to still get the shot (i.e freezing the action rather than panning) and the shots are more or less correctly exposed and therefore sellable after a bit processing ..........soooo is it worth me trading in my Nikons and investing in Canon EOS 1dx etc? It tends to only be this one area that causes an issue but as it's my local one I tend to shoot there quite a bit!

Any views or has this been done to death on another thread? I have only ever used Nikon so no idea on Canon, I'm considering hiring a Canon and having a practice!

Or am I being a complete numpty and missing something vital on my D3S!!??

Any opinions welcomed.
Sue
 
Several days reading on this, so good luck, but when working at the extremes like that and in particular circumstances, the only way to find out for sure is to is to get hold of a D4, and I'm sure Nikon would help you with that, and shoot it side by side with a 1DX. I hear that Canon is now inviting users to try a 1DX, with a nice selection of lenses to go with it.
 
Blackwijet said:
I'm considering hiring a Canon and having a practice!
Click to expand...

I think this is your answer, though I'd be surprised if the Canon was significantly better.

It could be down to your technique, if the light is getting dim I'd stick to centre focus points, definitely shoot in RAW as it'll give you a bit more room in PP to bring it back.
 
Thanks for that suggestion - might have to try contacting nikon/canon then. I'd rather keep with the Nikon as I have the lenses although I wouldn't mind upgrading my 70-200mm f2.8 to the new version but won't be able to afford that if I upgrade to the D4. decisions, decisions!
 
treeman said:
I think this is your answer, though I'd be surprised if the Canon was significantly better.

It could be down to your technique, if the light is getting dim I'd stick to centre focus points, definitely shoot in RAW as it'll give you a bit more room in PP to bring it back.
Click to expand...

Hi Mark,

thanks for the advice - I was racking my brains for ways to overcome the issues but had tried matrix, spot and centre weighted metering already and RAW was fine if the camera could lock the focus on (usually only if it was a grey or dun horse). Actually getting a decent shutter speed whilst also having enough light was the main problem. Panning not really a possibility as a) I'm pants at it and b) this is low level showjumping (2ft 9 - 3ft max) so the wings get in the way if you take side on shots as the horse isn't usually jumping that high. Plus the course builder must have been on drugs as the jumps were all over the place!:D

Looks like I might have to go do some testing and then go shopping!
 
Blackwijet said:
Thanks for that suggestion - might have to try contacting nikon/canon then. I'd rather keep with the Nikon as I have the lenses although I wouldn't mind upgrading my 70-200mm f2.8 to the new version but won't be able to afford that if I upgrade to the D4. decisions, decisions!
Click to expand...

Seriously, you need to try them side by side. I'm sure a D4 will be better, and have hunch that a 1DX might be better still, but I'm not certain about that, it's gonna be close, and either way is either expensive or exceedingly expensive.

Have a look at this thread on maxxing out the 1DX http://www.talkphotography.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=449808 and numerous other threads around the web. But they'll only give you an idea, and a whole bunch of subjective opinions.
 
Thanks Richard - will do that, as you say either option is going to bash the bank balance......maybe I'll just stop shooting at that venue!
 
Blackwijet said:
Thanks Richard - will do that, as you say either option is going to bash the bank balance......maybe I'll just stop shooting at that venue!
Click to expand...

Cheaper to buy them some bigger bulbs! Actually, that's not such a bad idea :D
 
and a new arena surface as their one is so dark brown it absorbs any light that does filter down! :D
 
I'm surprised to read that you're sturggling so much with the D3S. From the reviews I've read comparing a D3S, D4, D800, 5DIII, 1DX the D3S regularly comes out on top and the top dog for high iso capabilities.

Does the D3S really max out at iso12,000? I thought it would go higher than that. I've recently got a Canon 5DIII and that gives very clean images at iso 12,000 and when shooting correctly you can get usable images at 25k and even 51k. From what I've read the D3S is better than the 5DIII so I thought you'd be able to do the same.

EDIT: Just checked the specs on DPreview and it says the highest native iso of the D3S is 12,800 but will expand to H1=25,600, H2=51,200 & H3=102,400.
Have you tested the capabilities at these higher ISOs?
 
Last edited:
Hi, this is the only place i struggle - maybe ive got a duff D3s ! Most modern venues are much better having more natural light or good powerful lighting, i do shoot at a couple of other dark venues but this one beats me in winter!

Im not sure what else i can do to improve it - basically its really poor lighting and for show jumping you ideally need shutter speeds 500 & above.

Im open to any suggestions for improving my technique settings etc - will post exif etc when i get home this eve
 
Do you know what lenses those canon shots were taken with? It could be all done on primes wide open which is 2 stops of light.

You say you are shooting in 2.8 which I guess its the Nikon 24-70 mostly? So if a Canon shooter is shooting 24/1.4, 35/1.4, 50/1.2, 85/1.2. He/she will have minimum of 2 stop of light advantage. Surely the DOF is thin and takes skill to nail focus but that's the trade off.

The result is the difference between 1/15 to 1/60th or 1/60th to 1/250th.
 
Last edited:
Raymond Lin said:
Do you know what lenses those canon shots were taken with? It could be all done on primes wide open which is 2 stops of light.

You say you are shooting in 2.8 which I guess its the Nikon 24-70 mostly? So if a Canon shooter is shooting 24/1.4, 35/1.4, 50/1.2, 85/1.2. He/she will have minimum of 2 stop of light advantage. Surely the DOF is thin and takes skill to nail focus but that's the trade off.

The result is the difference between 1/15 to 1/60th or 1/60th to 1/250th.
Click to expand...

It looks like a 70-200 2.8, I'd guess as it's equestrian it'll all be similar 2.8 zooms, Canon or Nikon.
 
This time of year I pretty much refuse to shoot indoor arenas, even with high iso capability it's pointless if your af can't achieve lock.

Not the answer you wanted though.. Lol
 
Stick your active d lighting on extra high and youll get at least to double your shutter speed for the same ISO, or you'll get at least a full stop ISO advantage for the same shutter speed.
 
Hi All,

I hope you don't mind me posting a picture taken with a 1DX in a fairly dark tunnel with minimal lighting - ISO51200. The lens was a 24-105mm L lens. This picture is straight out the camera no PP at all.

XXX8076.jpg


TTFN,
Neil
 
Last edited:
If getting AF lock is the issue and not exposure(Shutter Speed), then try manual AF
 
I guess you have tried different AF point combinations and tracking settings...

How about 85mm f/1.4 if that's long enough? Canon also has a great 135mm f/2 which may be preferable to 70-200 under those conditions.

Finally, how about using flash AF assist beam, or even the flash (low power bounce probably) if it is that totally hopeless?
 
Last edited:
Still looking for RAWs for them.. to be honest, I think we can see here already that the problem the OP is having is certainly NOT caused by the D3s, which is an amazingly good high ISO performer.
 
sorry not meant to ignore anyone - got home late last night so didn't even switch the computer on!

Pookeyhead those comparison are interesting although as mentioned doesn't include the Canon 1DX.

Gary - thanks for the hint about the active D lighting on extra high - that was the one thing I didn't think to alter :bonk:

Daugirdas - yes tried everything and 85mm not long enough when in the ring, especially with one class where they choose their own route round the jumps.........bit like playing dodgems with a horse as you don't know where they are going and they can jump the jumps either way - being a horserider myself I can usually work out what line they are going to take to a jump but there are the occasional suicidal riders that scare the poop out of me :eek:
flash isn't an option for horse events, okay for presentations but not whilst they are actually competing, horses tend to react and it can cause accidents. whilst I'm insured for being in the ring I would really not rather not have to use it :D

Hoppy UK - yes I agree D3S brilliant for high ISO that's why I bought it & normally it copes really well - it's just this one arena that I have a problem with and just wondered about the 1Dx.

I think this weekend will be spent experimenting some more!
 
Sometimes I find using only the 11 focus points helps with locking on, my hit ratio with fast moving dogs was much higher and even better when only using the centre one.
 
Blackwijet said:
sorry not meant to ignore anyone - got home late last night so didn't even switch the computer on!

Pookeyhead those comparison are interesting although as mentioned doesn't include the Canon 1DX.

Gary - thanks for the hint about the active D lighting on extra high - that was the one thing I didn't think to alter :bonk:

Daugirdas - yes tried everything and 85mm not long enough when in the ring, especially with one class where they choose their own route round the jumps.........bit like playing dodgems with a horse as you don't know where they are going and they can jump the jumps either way - being a horserider myself I can usually work out what line they are going to take to a jump but there are the occasional suicidal riders that scare the poop out of me :eek:
flash isn't an option for horse events, okay for presentations but not whilst they are actually competing, horses tend to react and it can cause accidents. whilst I'm insured for being in the ring I would really not rather not have to use it :D

Hoppy UK - yes I agree D3S brilliant for high ISO that's why I bought it & normally it copes really well - it's just this one arena that I have a problem with and just wondered about the 1Dx.

I think this weekend will be spent experimenting some more!
Click to expand...

It wasn't me said that, but our Pooks. He may have a point though and I can't imagine that even a 1Dx would give you more than a stop at the limit. I don't know if you've done the sums on swapping to Canon yet, but take a stiff drink before you do.

The D-Lighting comment is interesting. I just tried it on a D700 and it certainly lifts the shadows a lot. That suggest there is more on the files, so it would be worth looking at your post processing regime. Eg, shoot Raw, run them through Nikon's software or Lightroom and see what you can pull up with the shadows slider, then tweak with noise reduction. I do that a lot (in LR4) and the results can be nothing shot of transforming.

Though I rarely shoot at max ISO, I've seen enough evidence around the web to suggest that might be an avenue worth investigating. Don't know about your PP regime, but I would post a link to one of your Raw files and let one of the experts have a go. It's a bit of a skill when you're after the last drop of image quality (levels, selective noise reduction and sharpening etc) though you may get a very pleasant surprise.

The other thing is lenses. Maybe hire a 200mm f/2 to try? Not a cheap lens for sure, but cheaper than swapping to Canon and a guaranteed extra stop of light. Would a 135mm f/2 be enough reach? A top grade prime might focus a bit better too, coupled to a bit of AF settings tuning and technique. If you can pin that centre AF point on the rider's face for example, I'm pretty sure you'd get a reliable lock.
 
Last edited:
Doesn't the Active D-Lighting slow the camera's processing speed down and subsequently the buffer clear speed? Although I believe Active D-Lighting adjusts the actual RAW file before being saved so unlike processing a standard RAW afterwards using the ADL may actually give you even more scope for adjustments but then if ADL is already adjusting the RAW towards better settings then I'd suspect any further adjustments in post would only make things worse?


I got this from a D3 pro tech guide if it helps:

1. Active D-Lighting will not produce the desired eff ect when used with center-weighted or spot metering.
2. Active D-Lighting has no effect in exposure mode h.
3. Noise may be more noticeable in photographs taken at higher values.
4. Choose cards with faster write times for quicker processing when taking large numbers of photographs.

Would perhaps going down the B&W route work? You may get away with having extra grain doing this and go for a film like look?

I'm with getting faster lenses :)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top