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dejongj

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The world is changing, the demands are changing. Yet they are seeking government protection to stick with their outdated ways.

First the black cab drivers. Instead of competing on what customers want and providing that by changing of supplementing their offering. No instead they rather waste money to remain in the past and provide a poor service. In that case it isn't even about the money.

And then there are the steel works. They are too expensive and not competitive. So instead of dealing with that they want the government to step in and apply local preference to maintain higher prices for us all. Pricing and wages need to be flexible. It's a global market, it has no place for protections as it will just impact the person paying for it all; us.
 
Yeh, along with the billions we send to African countries etc every year too. Can't help but feel that could be better invested at home.
 
Black cabs are regulated almost to extinction but with some very good reason.
They can hardly compete with a virtually unregulated service.

It looks like Tata is shutting down our steel industry, so that they supply directly from their cheaper product in India.
Steel is a strategic raw material, it would be unwise for the government to force the Uk to depend solely on imports.
It would be far to costly to start again from scratch.
Indian, australian and far eastern steel would have to pass through the middle east to get here.

The rotation of the recycling of old steel to new steel will be broken with nowhere to cost effectively reprocess.

Steel is not an old out of date industry, it is essential feed stock for most of our other manufacturers.
There might be a glut now but that will not always be the case. When our industry is gone it is gone.
we will be at the mercy of others, and they will make us pay.
 
It was like that with the shipyards, car plants and the mines...
 
Black cabs are regulated almost to extinction but with some very good reason.
They can hardly compete with a virtually unregulated service.

It looks like Tata is shutting down our steel industry, so that they supply directly from their cheaper product in India.
Steel is a strategic raw material, it would be unwise for the government to force the Uk to depend solely on imports.
It would be far to costly to start again from scratch.
Indian, australian and far eastern steel would have to pass through the middle east to get here.

The rotation of the recycling of old steel to new steel will be broken with nowhere to cost effectively reprocess.

Steel is not an old out of date industry, it is essential feed stock for most of our other manufacturers.
There might be a glut now but that will not always be the case. When our industry is gone it is gone.
we will be at the mercy of others, and they will make us pay.

The vast majority of old steel has been shipped to China for several years now.
 
Black cabs are regulated almost to extinction but with some very good reason.
They can hardly compete with a virtually unregulated service.

It looks like Tata is shutting down our steel industry, so that they supply directly from their cheaper product in India.
Steel is a strategic raw material, it would be unwise for the government to force the Uk to depend solely on imports.
It would be far to costly to start again from scratch.
Indian, australian and far eastern steel would have to pass through the middle east to get here.

The rotation of the recycling of old steel to new steel will be broken with nowhere to cost effectively reprocess.

Steel is not an old out of date industry, it is essential feed stock for most of our other manufacturers.
There might be a glut now but that will not always be the case. When our industry is gone it is gone.
we will be at the mercy of others, and they will make us pay.
Ofcourse they can compete, the regulation is not stopping that at all. Hence the likes of uber have popped up.
 
Hence the likes of uber have popped up.
I can't say that I am not sorry for the proper black cab drivers ( I assume they still do the knowledge? )
putting in all that time and effort to get qualified, but it was only a matter of time wasn't it?
And now a High court judge has ruled that they are "legal". I guess that could be the death knell for (another) one of our "great traditions"
 
I can't say that I am not sorry for the proper black cab drivers ( I assume they still do the knowledge? )
putting in all that time and effort to get qualified, but it was only a matter of time wasn't it?
And now a High court judge has ruled that they are "legal". I guess that could be the death knell for (another) one of our "great traditions"
They should use the knowledge to their advantage. Both uber journeys I had recently the drivers hadn't got a clue regarding the street. However I did and they got me close, and if I didn't know the final street the Satnav would have. So the knowledge has a usp.

However, hailing on the street is so rubbish. It is not fitting of 2015. Not having clean and comfortable vehicles is another negative. Then there is the lack of air conditioning. And last but not least, how refreshing it is to be met by a smiley happy driver who doesn't talk rubbish and bigoted (yes I do get the irony) nonsense.

It should be so easy to compete and be the best. Yet they choose to not compete and try and put the competition out of business at the cost of the punters by providing them a less desirable option.
 
. Both uber journeys I had recently the drivers hadn't got a clue regarding the street.
Actually that annoys when when I get in the cab, and have to tell the driver exactly where I am going.
By that I mean direct him there.
 
Actually that annoys when when I get in the cab, and have to tell the driver exactly where I am going.
By that I mean direct him there.
I feel the urge to tell bus drivers where to go on a regular basis. ;)
 
I feel the urge to tell bus drivers where to go on a regular basis. ;)
I find there where the sun doesn't shine is a very good place for them :)
 
Actually that annoys when when I get in the cab, and have to tell the driver exactly where I am going.
By that I mean direct him there.

Agreed - makes me want to ask why someone is driving a cab when they don't know how to go where you want to go.
 
The world is changing, the demands are changing. Yet they are seeking government protection to stick with their outdated ways.

First the black cab drivers. Instead of competing on what customers want and providing that by changing of supplementing their offering. No instead they rather waste money to remain in the past and provide a poor service. In that case it isn't even about the money.

And then there are the steel works. They are too expensive and not competitive. So instead of dealing with that they want the government to step in and apply local preference to maintain higher prices for us all. Pricing and wages need to be flexible. It's a global market, it has no place for protections as it will just impact the person paying for it all; us.

Oh dear oh dear...Terry said it for the black cabs and steel and I'm happy to defend steel further.

I live not far from the Radcar steel works and I disagree with you on a number of levels but I'll try and be brief and simple...

We can't compete with the Chinese on price but we're not exactly on a level playing field are we? And then there's the personal beneficial and environmental considerations.

On competitiveness. I do wonder why people persist in believing that the market is all and everything and that the most efficient producers will succeed and inefficient ones will perish and that's the right and natural order of things as that's simplistic, naive and often simply barkingly wrong. It's just not the way the world works outside of the mind of free market proponents. In the real world other states manipulate the markets and provide aid and support to their home producers and manage their economies in their own interests. We don't do that as apparently EC rules don't allow us to but that is rather odd as the French, German's and Italian's seem to have a slightly laxer copy of the EC rule book and all support, subsidise and indeed own what out government seems to be prevented from.

On well being. Working can be much more than just about the money. At it's best it gives a sense of achievement and wellbeing, it gives people a sense of purpose and allows the building of personal relationships and communities. Life on the dole isn't so conducive to wellbeing.

On the environment. Our steel works and wider industries have to comply with EC directives and UK statutory instruments. I do wonder if the Chinese conform to the similar standards, I'd be willing to bet that things aren't quite so strict and that the environment suffers as a result.

And there's also the issue of quality, you may or may not remember a little news story from a few years ago... the rail companies reported that tracks were bending and guess why... they'd stopped buying British made steel and had bought a load of cheap but crap steel from China.

One thing which has annoyed the hell out of me is the stance of the Labour Party. Labour politicians are shouting at the Tories demanding action and the events of a few years ago have been airbrushed from history. It's like something from 1984 with minions busy rewriting the history books. Back a few years to the last Labour government... the Redcar steel works was deep in trouble and they turned their backs and just didn't care. I remember one Labour woman (I forget her name) complaining with a pained look on her face that when she was out knocking on doors "all people wanted to talk about was the steel works." I have a hard time forgiving her arrogance and the indifference of the Labour party back then. Back then local big wigs campaigned to get the local Labour MP's out and called for them to be kept out for a generation and as a life long Labour supporter I had to agree and I haven't voted for them since.

When I see Labour bleating about the Redcar works now I just think "You F-ing hypocrite."

IMO the government should save the steel industry, once it goes it's gone forever. They don't have to do anything too odd, just do what most of our competitor nations would do. Impose import restrictions, provide aid and find ways to award contracts to home producers.
 
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Ofcourse they can compete, the regulation is not stopping that at all. Hence the likes of uber have popped up.

The regulations of licensed taxis throughout the UK are stopping that. They have to comply at a cost whereas uber do not, how is that "not stopping that at all"?

Would you prefer your son or daughter to get in a car the driver of which has been driving licensed, knowledge tested, medical tested and criminal record checked as well as verified as being a fit and proper person (eg solvent and of good character and standing) in a car that has been safety tested by your local authority to a standard higher than an mot and verified to be correctly insured.... or an uber vehicle that has been verified to look smart enough and a driver that probably holds a driving licence but could have any sort of dodgy history?

The reason the likes of uber have popped up as you put it is they can undercut those doing the job in a safe and regulated way, as is the case with unregulated minicabs generally, which uber are basically an app enabled version of, to not understand that the regulation creates an overhead that makes being competitive unrealistic is simply naive or based purely on price alone, by your logic uncle bob is the professional photographer and those charging more are simply choosing to be uncompetetive?
 
Actually that annoys when when I get in the cab, and have to tell the driver exactly where I am going.
By that I mean direct him there.
Indeed, but is that a regulated taxi or just an unlicensed minicab such as uber.....
 
They should use the knowledge to their advantage. Both uber journeys I had recently the drivers hadn't got a clue regarding the street. However I did and they got me close, and if I didn't know the final street the Satnav would have. So the knowledge has a usp.

However, hailing on the street is so rubbish. It is not fitting of 2015. Not having clean and comfortable vehicles is another negative. Then there is the lack of air conditioning. And last but not least, how refreshing it is to be met by a smiley happy driver who doesn't talk rubbish and bigoted (yes I do get the irony) nonsense.

It should be so easy to compete and be the best. Yet they choose to not compete and try and put the competition out of business at the cost of the punters by providing them a less desirable option.

You say they should use the knowledge to their advantage, I would say they do, you are aware of it, how do you suggest they can do so beyond public awareness that exists? Your first paragraph appears very contradictory to me....you complain of an uber lack of knowledge yet say its close enough then that the knowledge is a usp and seem to imagine there is some obvious magic way this can be used to promote themselves and they choose not to? Most people are aware of the london knowledge, not many that a lot of other cities have there own versions for their regulated licensed taxi trade, most just use a local unlicensed minicab and compare apples to oranges.

Part of a regulated fleet check is condition, cleanliness and even a smell test for vehicles, with many council otlr company checks occuring monthly to six monthly, you maycsay not often enough but these have to be paid for which add to the overhead and we are back to your competitive point, uber cars may appear better in this regard but they are newer, a fairer comparison would be long running minicabs to licensed vehicles if comparing int nal conditions, admittedly in the case of londons frequency of use I dare say some black cabs get abused but it is not the drivers making those messes it is us the passengers.

Most modern cars have aircon, blame lti and other black cab manufacturers not the drivers for lack of that, you seem to think the drivers can choose in london what vehicle they use, they dont get a say, they are not providing your "less desirable option" of the black cab and others may prefer one to a prius or skoda, according to tfl tourists certainly do. A lot of what you appear to think are driver choices are those forced upon them by tfl or local authority regulation.

I have met just as many bigotted and miserable minicab drivers as regulated ones. Given how many black cabbies are of ethnic origin these days I might be tempted to suggest you yourself are playing a bit on the stereotype ;)

Your last paragraph is the most telling, yes it should be easy but it is the gov and local authority regulations that make the prices uncompetitive not the drivers as you seem to think, rates are set by your local councils not the drivers, hence the requirement of a metered rate hence the requirement of a meter hence this current is the mobile a meter debacle, the current devision is bring misunderstood to a degree imho.....hence others posting that uber is now legal, the question was is the mobile a meter as in London if it is only regulated black cabs can use meters...so the decision was no they are not meters....ok so far...however in other cities local regulations state that licensed hacney carriages and private hire vehicles must use a recognised meter so now does that mean the same ruling makes uber illegal in those cities?

It is not as simple as some seem to think, it is an over regulated trade that has suffered nationwide from different councils rulings and agendas over the years and simply put should not be anywhere near as beurocratic and red tape filled as it is....but it is....if anything the likes of uber shows the system needs a sort out but simply blaming those at the user facing end of that system is extremely naive. If you study the protests more closely you will see that noone has asked to be protected from competition, just that the competition needs to be a fair one.
 
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The regulations of licensed taxis throughout the UK are stopping that. They have to comply at a cost whereas uber do not, how is that "not stopping that at all"?

Would you prefer your son or daughter to get in a car the driver of which has been driving licensed, knowledge tested, medical tested and criminal record checked as well as verified as being a fit and proper person (eg solvent and of good character and standing) in a car that has been safety tested by your local authority to a standard higher than an mot and verified to be correctly insured.... or an uber vehicle that has been verified to look smart enough and a driver that probably holds a driving licence but could have any sort of dodgy history?

The reason the likes of uber have popped up as you put it is they can undercut those doing the job in a safe and regulated way, as is the case with unregulated minicabs generally, which uber are basically an app enabled version of, to not understand that the regulation creates an overhead that makes being competitive unrealistic is simply naive or based purely on price alone, by your logic uncle bob is the professional photographer and those charging more are simply choosing to be uncompetetive?
I'd rather have my son or daughter use the app, know who is coming and what car and when, opposed to wondering the streets and be as the mercy of pick and choose of the London can driver.

There is nothing stopping the London cab drivers providing such services if that is where the public is at and what they want.

Don't you get it, the world has changed, the customers want a different product. Saying you can't have that but you can have this inferior product in every single way except perhaps for the knowledge doesn't work. The vehicles are uncomfortable, the ride is uncomfortable, there is no air condirioning, you have to pay using cash, it's a filthy run down environment, you are at the drivers mercy waiting in the rain for a pickup.

As I said money isn't even the issue, it's a convenience difference in every single way.
 
You say they should use the knowledge to their advantage, I would say they do, you are aware of it, how do you suggest they can do so beyond public awareness that exists? Your first paragraph appears very contradictory to me....you complain of an uber lack of knowledge yet say its close enough then that the knowledge is a usp and seem to imagine there is some obvious magic way this can be used to promote themselves and they choose not to? Most people are aware of the london knowledge, not many that a lot of other cities have there own versions for their regulated licensed taxi trade, most just use a local unlicensed minicab and compare apples to oranges.

Part of a regulated fleet check is condition, cleanliness and even a smell test for vehicles, with many council otlr company checks occuring monthly to six monthly, you maycsay not often enough but these have to be paid for which add to the overhead and we are back to your competitive point, uber cars may appear better in this regard but they are newer, a fairer comparison would be long running minicabs to licensed vehicles if comparing int nal conditions, admittedly in the case of londons frequency of use I dare say some black cabs get abused but it is not the drivers making those messes it is us the passengers.

Most modern cars have aircon, blame lti and other black cab manufacturers not the drivers for lack of that, you seem to think the drivers can choose in london what vehicle they use, they dont get a say, they are not providing your "less desirable option" of the black cab and others may prefer one to a prius or skoda, according to tfl tourists certainly do. A lot of what you appear to think are driver choices are those forced upon them by tfl or local authority regulation.

I have met just as many bigotted and miserable minicab drivers as regulated ones. Given how many black cabbies are of ethnic origin these days I might be tempted to suggest you yourself are playing a bit on the stereotype ;)

Your last paragraph is the most telling, yes it should be easy but it is the gov and local authority regulations that make the prices uncompetitive not the drivers as you seem to think, rates are set by your local councils not the drivers, hence the requirement of a metered rate hence the requirement of a meter hence this current is the mobile a meter debacle, the current devision is bring misunderstood to a degree imho.....hence others posting that uber is now legal, the question was is the mobile a meter as in London if it is only regulated black cabs can use meters...so the decision was no they are not meters....ok so far...however in other cities local regulations state that licensed hacney carriages and private hire vehicles must use a recognised meter so now does that mean the same ruling makes uber illegal in those cities?

It is not as simple as some seem to think, it is an over regulated trade that has suffered nationwide from different councils rulings and agendas over the years and simply put should not be anywhere near as beurocratic and red tape filled as it is....but it is....if anything the likes of uber shows the system needs a sort out but simply blaming those at the user facing end of that system is extremely naive. If you study the protests more closely you will see that noone has asked to be protected from competition, just that the competition needs to be a fair one.
If you let the red mist subside and perhaps read what I wrote you might get it ;)

The knowledge is a usp, yet they are feeling the competition from those who don't have that knowledge. They should look at their business operations and use that to their advantage.

Likewise with the regulations, sure I know who makes the vehicles etc still doesn't make it great and comfortable from a punters perspective. So it is a pointless argument. They don't have to take a vehicle like that; they could get a nice Mercedes E class and become an uber driver for example. Or set up a competitor to show how it is properly done if they don't agree. So many options at their disposal. Yet they choose the one road that if they get their way doesn't change anything and the punters loose out.

Never forget where your money comes from. It's us the punters. If you forget your core market you will fail.

Ps. Not sure why you make the distinction between taxi drivers of ethnic origin? Are you seriously saying they can't be bigoted? Are you serious?
 
Oh dear oh dear...Terry said it for the black cabs and steel and I'm happy to defend steel further.

I live not far from the Radcar steel works and I disagree with you on a number of levels but I'll try and be brief and simple...

We can't compete with the Chinese on price but we're not exactly on a level playing field are we? And then there's the personal beneficial and environmental considerations.

On competitiveness. I do wonder why people persist in believing that the market is all and everything and that the most efficient producers will succeed and inefficient ones will perish and that's the right and natural order of things as that's simplistic, naive and often simply barkingly wrong. It's just not the way the world works outside of the mind of free market proponents. In the real world other states manipulate the markets and provide aid and support to their home producers and manage their economies in their own interests. We don't do that as apparently EC rules don't allow us to but that is rather odd as the French, German's and Italian's seem to have a slightly laxer copy of the EC rule book and all support, subsidise and indeed own what out government seems to be prevented from.

On well being. Working can be much more than just about the money. At it's best it gives a sense of achievement and wellbeing, it gives people a sense of purpose and allows the building of personal relationships and communities. Life on the dole isn't so conducive to wellbeing.

On the environment. Our steel works and wider industries have to comply with EC directives and UK statutory instruments. I do wonder if the Chinese conform to the similar standards, I'd be willing to bet that things aren't quite so strict and that the environment suffers as a result.

And there's also the issue of quality, you may or may not remember a little news story from a few years ago... the rail companies reported that tracks were bending and guess why... they'd stopped buying British made steel and had bought a load of cheap but crap steel from China.

One thing which has annoyed the hell out of me is the stance of the Labour Party. Labour politicians are shouting at the Tories demanding action and the events of a few years ago have been airbrushed from history. It's like something from 1984 with minions busy rewriting the history books. Back a few years to the last Labour government... the Redcar steel works was deep in trouble and they turned their backs and just didn't care. I remember one Labour woman (I forget her name) complaining with a pained look on her face that when she was out knocking on doors "all people wanted to talk about was the steel works." I have a hard time forgiving her arrogance and the indifference of the Labour party back then. Back then local big wigs campaigned to get the local Labour MP's out and called for them to be kept out for a generation and as a life long Labour supporter I had to agree and I haven't voted for them since.

When I see Labour bleating about the Redcar works now I just think "You F-ing hypocrite."

IMO the government should save the steel industry, once it goes it's gone forever. They don't have to do anything too odd, just do what most of our competitor nations would do. Impose import restrictions, provide aid and find ways to award contracts to home producers.
Likewise as with the taxi, and that is why I mentioned them as just of many more examples.

You've highlighted excellent qualities of uk based steelworks. And you won't get any disagreement from me on that.

Yet somehow their customers aren't aware of those qualities and benefits, and are going elsewhere. So if their customers don't find those attributes worthy of interest then something needs to be changed. And as a private industry they should do that; sure part of that would be to fight for themselves to make their corporate life easier. But fighting through regulations to make the life of the competition harder and thus affecting their customers will not end well. And is not a positive fight.

Focus on their own strengths and make yourself more desirable for your customers. Blocking your competition doesn't do that at all.
 
(eg solvent and of good character and standing)

This makes me chuckle.
Character and good standing? Assuming there's no criminal record, how do you prove character and good standing (in the community, which is what it means)?
From character references? A person is hardly likely to seek one from a person likely to run them down are they? They're about as relevant as most job references.

And someone's solvency is of no concern to me.
People encounter financial difficulties. ..it happens.
I see their financial situation to be of no concern to me.
 
or just an unlicensed minicab such as uber.....
Lets just say that I've never had that problem with a black cab ;)
 
I'd rather have my son or daughter use the app, know who is coming and what car and when, opposed to wondering the streets and be as the mercy of pick and choose of the London can driver.

There is nothing stopping the London cab drivers providing such services if that is where the public is at and what they want.

Don't you get it, the world has changed, the customers want a different product. Saying you can't have that but you can have this inferior product in every single way except perhaps for the knowledge doesn't work. The vehicles are uncomfortable, the ride is uncomfortable, there is no air condirioning, you have to pay using cash, it's a filthy run down environment, you are at the drivers mercy waiting in the rain for a pickup.

As I said money isn't even the issue, it's a convenience difference in every single way.

I would say it is you that does not get it.

First paragraph:
They do not know the car coming is safe and roadworthy.
They dont know who is coming, could be ok could be a rapist.
They know the when in either case, in fact most black cabs in london can be summoned via apps as well as flagged so the when will be either immediate or app based similiar to uber.
They would not be "at the mercy" of the london cab driver if using a black cab that is the very essence of the regulations you support the flouting of, you somehow have it reversed that an uber driver is safer than a black cab.

Paragraph 2:
Yes sadly there is, as you seem to overlook they are regulated, this forces them to operate in a prescribed way using prescribed vehicles, I fail to see how you cannot understand this, not saying it is right but it is def wrong to blame the drivers as you are.
Besides the fact that many do use apps akin to uber which again you overlook.

Paragraph 3:
Sadly you do not get it, do you actually use london black cabs?
Have to pay cash? Cannot recall the last time no card facilities were available in my useage.
Filthy and run down? Simple. Take the badge number and report them to tfl.
Noone is forcing you or anyone to use black cabs, you have for many years been able to book a private hire vehicle instead if you so choose, you may have noticed no mass protests against addison lee for example who offer much of what uber does albeit not as cheap for the simple reason they comply with being regulated for our safety, unlike uber.

Paragraph 4:
But it is the issue from the protesting drivers point of view, who are the ones you are blaming, they are forced into higher overheads and using prescribed vehicles, they cannot simply choose not to, the system is antiquated and of course the world has changed but you are just blaming the wrong people in that system and choosing to not accept that does not change that fact.
 
I would say it is you that does not get it.

First paragraph:
They do not know the car coming is safe and roadworthy.
They dont know who is coming, could be ok could be a rapist.
They know the when in either case, in fact most black cabs in london can be summoned via apps as well as flagged so the when will be either immediate or app based similiar to uber.
They would not be "at the mercy" of the london cab driver if using a black cab that is the very essence of the regulations you support the flouting of, you somehow have it reversed that an uber driver is safer than a black cab.

Paragraph 2:
Yes sadly there is, as you seem to overlook they are regulated, this forces them to operate in a prescribed way using prescribed vehicles, I fail to see how you cannot understand this, not saying it is right but it is def wrong to blame the drivers as you are.
Besides the fact that many do use apps akin to uber which again you overlook.

Paragraph 3:
Sadly you do not get it, do you actually use london black cabs?
Have to pay cash? Cannot recall the last time no card facilities were available in my useage.
Filthy and run down? Simple. Take the badge number and report them to tfl.
Noone is forcing you or anyone to use black cabs, you have for many years been able to book a private hire vehicle instead if you so choose, you may have noticed no mass protests against addison lee for example who offer much of what uber does albeit not as cheap for the simple reason they comply with being regulated for our safety, unlike uber.

Paragraph 4:
But it is the issue from the protesting drivers point of view, who are the ones you are blaming, they are forced into higher overheads and using prescribed vehicles, they cannot simply choose not to, the system is antiquated and of course the world has changed but you are just blaming the wrong people in that system and choosing to not accept that does not change that fact.
I must admit that you sound just like the militant taxi drivers calling into LBC and doing the protest marches. So much misinformation that it is just laughable, and you can't see the wood for the trees. The most obvious way they can compete is right in front of you but as per my thread, they don't get it.

Ah well, I'm not loosing any sleep or income over it. The black cab trade in the mean time is.
 
I would say it is you that does not get it.

First paragraph:
They do not know the car coming is safe and roadworthy.
Oh don't be silly. They know it just as much or not as with a black cab. It is not for the customer to check those kind of things.

They dont know who is coming, could be ok could be a rapist.
They do know who is coming, they get their details upfront. They can confirm it is the same person as that has the account. In fact their journey is also logged and tracked so not just they know who they are with, as does everyone else with access to the app.

Black cab drivers can be rapist as well, heck you can be, so can I.

They know the when in either case, in fact most black cabs in london can be summoned via apps as well as flagged so the when will be either immediate or app based similiar to uber.
That is correct, some have joined up with such services. Which is exactly my point about competing. The fast majority doesn't how ever. Their app technology and experience is pretty basic and poor though.

They would not be "at the mercy" of the london cab driver if using a black cab that is the very essence of the regulations you support the flouting of, you somehow have it reversed that an uber driver is safer than a black cab.
That is plain mis-information. Besides also misses the point, I guess comprehension is lacking a little. Being at the mercy is in relation as to whether they stop for you when hailing or not. The amount of times I've had taxis just drive past with their light on, and not just for me. Female friends have had many a time had the taxi not stop for them either. In my experience they operate a logic of their own, regardless what the regulations say.

Paragraph 2:
Yes sadly there is, as you seem to overlook they are regulated, this forces them to operate in a prescribed way using prescribed vehicles, I fail to see how you cannot understand this, not saying it is right but it is def wrong to blame the drivers as you are.
Besides the fact that many do use apps akin to uber which again you overlook.

Paragraph 3:
Sadly you do not get it, do you actually use london black cabs?
About £5K worth per annum, yes I use them a lot.

Have to pay cash? Cannot recall the last time no card facilities were available in my useage.
Much more common to not have the card payment versus the ones that do. And then the ones that do seem to operate a minimum payment as well. Further more when you hail one you don't know whether you will get one that accepts cards or not. That is the point, again total bypass in comprehension skills on what customers want.

Filthy and run down? Simple. Take the badge number and report them to tfl.
Yes sure, we all love to have the time to make such reports. Nope an automated feedback popping up at the end of the journey with a couple of clicks is much more convenient. But even more so, why would I want to report drivers like that to TFL. I just don't want a driver like that. They shouldn't have to be told to clean up their act or get a nice new comfy vehicle.

Noone is forcing you or anyone to use black cabs, you have for many years been able to book a private hire vehicle instead if you so choose, you may have noticed no mass protests against addison lee for example who offer much of what uber does albeit not as cheap for the simple reason they comply with being regulated for our safety, unlike uber.
I've been using black cabs for a long time, it is just great that there are much better options now. No protests against Addison Lee, are you for real? They are constantly at odds with each other. Now I'm wondering whether you understand the London market. But again the Addison Lee model is not great for individuals. Their app is nowhere near as good, I also don't like their vehicles. Interestingly I noticed one of the Uber drivers I was with last week was also an Addison Lee drivers, perhaps that is something black cab drivers can do ;)

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But it is the issue from the protesting drivers point of view, who are the ones you are blaming, they are forced into higher overheads and using prescribed vehicles, they cannot simply choose not to, the system is antiquated and of course the world has changed but you are just blaming the wrong people in that system and choosing to not accept that does not change that fact.
Yes they can choose not too. They are the drivers, they make the money, they can make a demand for a change, heck they could even join uber as a driver. Setup their own service. So many possibilities, so little time.
 
If you let the red mist subside and perhaps read what I wrote you might get it ;)

The knowledge is a usp, yet they are feeling the competition from those who don't have that knowledge. They should look at their business operations and use that to their advantage.

Likewise with the regulations, sure I know who makes the vehicles etc still doesn't make it great and comfortable from a punters perspective. So it is a pointless argument. They don't have to take a vehicle like that; they could get a nice Mercedes E class and become an uber driver for example. Or set up a competitor to show how it is properly done if they don't agree. So many options at their disposal. Yet they choose the one road that if they get their way doesn't change anything and the punters loose out.

Never forget where your money comes from. It's us the punters. If you forget your core market you will fail.

Ps. Not sure why you make the distinction between taxi drivers of ethnic origin? Are you seriously saying they can't be bigoted? Are you serious?

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There is no red must my end, simply the knowledge from 25 years dealing with IT in and around the taxi trade so I understand the regulations better than most that just use cabs occasionally. I read what you wrote that is why i felt the need to reply as you appear to have little knowledge of the regulations yourself assuming you feel my assesment to be unfair then......

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How is that possible within the regulations prescribed ?
Exactly what control over their business operations do you know them to have that they are free as licensed drivers to change?

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It was your pointless argument.
You argued for change that the driver is not allowed to make.
So move to the unregulated unsafe potentially uninsured system is your solution for them? (You also seem to be unaware of taxi insurance in regard to prebooked or flagged work, if you were you would realise again how naive some of your points are, yet more regulation forced upon legitimate trading taxi drivers).
Set up a competitor to show how its done? The point is it cannot be done properly and within regulations as uber are doing it so why the expectation it can? You are just generalising and guessing, please be specific if you know how it can be done. Where are these many alternatives they can legally utilise within current legislation and regulation? Please elaborate....

What is this one road you talk of?
Tfl took uber to court over whether a smart phone is considered a fit metering device, it is not, had it been then tfl could stop uber on the basis of the legality of such ise, nothing to do with drivers, and as I said in this thread but you seem to ignore this shows one of many regulation issues since now many coties cannot legally use uber from the same judgement since having a fit metering device IS a requirement in those local authorities, so as you see it is nowhere near as black and white as you suggest.
The protesting drivers you keep suggesting are trying to keep the status quo are mostly (as already said but ignored as it doesnt fit your view) protesting the fact they cannot compete fairly with uber due to their hands being tied, not as you suggest just trying to keep things as they are, most taxi drivers I know would love a fair shake down of the rules and regs but as some are set by govt and some by each local authority this is not a quick thing albeit it is currently happening with cross border plying etc.

Para 4
You really do not understand this I feel, that is such a generalisation it is almost insulting, you overlook the point that most of what I am trying to convey is there is more to servicing the taxi market than you think including the safety of those passengers, ignore that and what happens to that core market when they no longer feel safe using a cab?
As already said, yes the current system is no longer fit for purpose however blaming the drivers as you are is ridiculous.

P.s. of course they are, just as uber drivers are?
 
I saw someone wearing a "trust me, I'm a Uber driver" tshirt a couple of weeks ago. Made me chuckle. :)
 
This makes me chuckle.
Character and good standing? Assuming there's no criminal record, how do you prove character and good standing (in the community, which is what it means)?
From character references? A person is hardly likely to seek one from a person likely to run them down are they? They're about as relevant as most job references.

And someone's solvency is of no concern to me.
People encounter financial difficulties. ..it happens.
I see their financial situation to be of no concern to me.

Yes actually many authorities do indeed use references but they determine who not the applying driver . However it is not just that there are "fit and proper" tests of varying degree to prove yourself as amongst other things solvent...

This is more to do with licensed private hire than hackney ones although the financial pressure points stands for both.....
You say you do not care? Fine, let me ask you this, you go out and order a licensed cab to go home, you get in the wrong one either knowingly or because the driver let you believe it was yours, you are therefore not insured. If anything should happen and you try to sue the driver to find out he is a man of straw? (Btw there is a reason there are hardly any "employed" taxi drivers....you won't be able to sue the company behind them that takes the bookings....another little understood nugget.)

Alternatively the tested solvent driver has proven assets so apart from being much less likely to risk taking the wrong person also has something to lose should he do anything that invalidates his insurance. For example did you know if you deviate from the pre booked route eg to pick up someone else or simply to change your plans mid trip this invalidates most licensed private hire insurance?

Additionally a solvent driver is assumed to be less likely to "try it on" in regard to taking longer routes etc as they obviously are not under as much financial pressure....hopefully you may see now why it should be a concern...not a major one admittedly (in so much of risk of accident vs useage level) but one of many that combine to provide the fit and proper standing most licensed cab drivers have to achieve to gain a local authority license. Uber by contrast are basically the old unregulated minicabs of yor but with easier availibility. So I can see why drivers are annoyed about it and to my mind they have been protesting in the only way they can get away with within the constraints put upon them by legislation and regulation hence me feeling I should respond to this thread (not your post particularly ) as I am :)
I had no idea how complicated political and red taped the taxi industry was until my involvement with it and really am just trying to disseminate info to those that can be or are bothered to read my essays (sadly being so complicated it is not easy to keep points short)...
 
Paragraph 1:
There is no red must my end, simply the knowledge from 25 years dealing with IT in and around the taxi trade so I understand the regulations better than most that just use cabs occasionally. I read what you wrote that is why i felt the need to reply as you appear to have little knowledge of the regulations yourself assuming you feel my assesment to be unfair then......
Blimey you really do miss the point don't you. That part highlighted in bold nicely demonstrates the whole discussion we are having, and most of the taxi drivers.

Perhaps you get it this way, and you can watch it via iPlayer; The Apprentice on Wednesday nice was a perfect example. One team was turning out fish cakes the size of St Paul's. They set out to make 300, but could only make 89. The PM tried to have a conversation with the head chef that it is wrong. The head chef kept on arguing that he is doing it according to the specifications. The PM said sod the specification, they are wrong, they are too big. The head chef still remained that he was doing it right as he was following the specifications. Then in the board room, after they lost and made about £10, Lord Sugar engaged on that conversation. The head chef still remained that he did it right as he followed the specifications.....

Are you starting to see the point ;) That is exactly what the vocal black cab drivers are doing.
 
Yes actually many authorities do indeed use references but they determine who not the applying driver . However it is not just that there are "fit and proper" tests of varying degree to prove yourself as amongst other things solvent...

This is more to do with licensed private hire than hackney ones although the financial pressure points stands for both.....
You say you do not care? Fine, let me ask you this, you go out and order a licensed cab to go home, you get in the wrong one either knowingly or because the driver let you believe it was yours, you are therefore not insured. If anything should happen and you try to sue the driver to find out he is a man of straw? (Btw there is a reason there are hardly any "employed" taxi drivers....you won't be able to sue the company behind them that takes the bookings....another little understood nugget.)

Alternatively the tested solvent driver has proven assets so apart from being much less likely to risk taking the wrong person also has something to lose should he do anything that invalidates his insurance. For example did you know if you deviate from the pre booked route eg to pick up someone else or simply to change your plans mid trip this invalidates most licensed private hire insurance?

Additionally a solvent driver is assumed to be less likely to "try it on" in regard to taking longer routes etc as they obviously are not under as much financial pressure....hopefully you may see now why it should be a concern...not a major one admittedly (in so much of risk of accident vs useage level) but one of many that combine to provide the fit and proper standing most licensed cab drivers have to achieve to gain a local authority license. Uber by contrast are basically the old unregulated minicabs of yor but with easier availibility. So I can see why drivers are annoyed about it and to my mind they have been protesting in the only way they can get away with within the constraints put upon them by legislation and regulation hence me feeling I should respond to this thread (not your post particularly ) as I am :)
I had no idea how complicated political and red taped the taxi industry was until my involvement with it and really am just trying to disseminate info to those that can be or are bothered to read my essays (sadly being so complicated it is not easy to keep points short)...

Well I should point out at this point that i I can't recall the last time I used a cab of any kind.
I'm in London quite often for work, it's either tube or walk for me.

You make a fair point regarding uninsured drivers, however someone could still be classed as insolvent whilst still being in possession of everything required legally, so their financial standing shouldn't be relevant-only that they adhere to the necessary legalities, which surely cab be regularly checked.

So if the authorities pick referees, who, for instance, might they pick.
Surely they need to have a pool of potential people known to the applicant to choose from?
 
bunch of moaning little girl bitches are the black cabs. They need to get with the times. There is no difference between uber and a private hire cab in reality, shame the t*** mayor is trying to make uber have a minimum fare. Wonder if that little nugget will fall foul of EU law
 
Blimey you really do miss the point don't you. That part highlighted in bold nicely demonstrates the whole discussion we are having, and most of the taxi drivers.

Perhaps you get it this way, and you can watch it via iPlayer; The Apprentice on Wednesday nice was a perfect example. One team was turning out fish cakes the size of St Paul's. They set out to make 300, but could only make 89. The PM tried to have a conversation with the head chef that it is wrong. The head chef kept on arguing that he is doing it according to the specifications. The PM said sod the specification, they are wrong, they are too big. The head chef still remained that he was doing it right as he was following the specifications. Then in the board room, after they lost and made about £10, Lord Sugar engaged on that conversation. The head chef still remained that he did it right as he followed the specifications.....

Are you starting to see the point ;) That is exactly what the vocal black cab drivers are doing.

Yeah you're obviulously right, should only be looked at from one perspective and sod the reasons for regulation in an industry obviously comparable to fishcakes....

It is not what they are doing...the correct analogy would be if the chef was wanting to change the specifications but was legally not allowed to.

If you researched the constraints and prescribed regulations rather than repeatedly asserting such a naive position you might get some understanding but I don't see that happening here tbh.

Additionally, apart from the rather odd comparison of the apprentice where rarely does anyone have any in depth knowledge of that which they project manage....fishcake manufacture hardly has the same risk and attribution profile as the taxi trade which is don't forget part of the public transport system so needs some form of rule and regulation whether you personally cannot understand that or not.
 
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Well I should point out at this point that i I can't recall the last time I used a cab of any kind.
I'm in London quite often for work, it's either tube or walk for me.

You make a fair point regarding uninsured drivers, however someone could still be classed as insolvent whilst still being in possession of everything required legally, so their financial standing shouldn't be relevant-only that they adhere to the necessary legalities, which surely cab be regularly checked.

So if the authorities pick referees, who, for instance, might they pick.
Surely they need to have a pool of potential people known to the applicant to choose from?

Bingo! Cabs should be regularly checked and licensed ones are as are the drivers.
Uber are not. Hence not a fair playing field for competition.

Who? Their doctor, old headmaster or teachers, local authority members, family associations in the district either of application or origin, local company directors, letters of reccomendation from trade bodies etc amongst others, basically not just who the applicant chooses as was your concern.
As I say these are all part of the overall "fit and proper" attribution (not all authorites still bother) none are a complete test on their own but they were a way overall to maintain some form of good character relevance to an applicant.
E.g. the solvency test used to include paying outright for your vehicle etc nowadays it is mostly for the licenses as since age limits were imposed in many places itcwas recognised that newer vehicles needex more upfront funding but there is also the knockon reasons e.g if you are solvent you are more likely to maintain properly rather than cut corners etc...as I say none are proof of much but combined were the best that arose from the comitte based authority systems which I have also said I agree need very much to be updated but blaming the drivers for features out of their control is just wrong (as the op was, not you) ;)
 
There is no difference between uber and a private hire cab in reality


Black cabs are not private hire.

Otherwise yes my point exactly uber and unlicensed private hire cabs are pretty much the same and therefore expecting the licensed regulated trade to directly compete is not realistic unless one side or the other is made or allowed to work under the same constraints in particular those regarding safety of the public they carry.
 
shame the t*** mayor is trying to make uber have a minimum fare. Wonder if that little nugget will fall foul of EU law
Also a shame he does not cap the maximum fare for journeys within the authority as per black cabs and licensed private hires in nearly every area of the country. That way uber cannot hold us to ransom at busier times......
 
On the new section of the M74 in Glasgow you can see the Tata steel building and it has a big sign which says "Tata Steel". I'm sure you can see the irony in that. Just add "UK" in the middle.

Is there any way to find out what contracts and trade we get in return from the countries who we provide aid to?
 
Who? Their doctor, old headmaster or teachers, local authority members, family associations in the district either of application or origin, local company directors, letters of reccomendation from trade bodies etc amongst others, basically not just who the applicant chooses as was your concern.
As I say these are all part of the overall "fit and proper" attribution (not all authorites still bother) none are a complete test on their own but they were a way overall to maintain some form of good character relevance to an applicant.
;)

Excellent post :-)
But I'm still struggling on the reference front.(as quoted)...forgive me.

Of all the above examples, not one could give a reference as to my character.
My doctor is obviously aware of me, but doesn't know me per se.
The same could be said for teachers etc. as I finished my degrees well over 20 years ago.
I am a member of one professional association, but all they can tell you is that I possess the necessary to qualify for membership, and have unundergone the necessary continuing development to maintain it.

My point is that character references are impossible to obtain from any referee who isn't very familuar with that person's character.

Even current employers cannot be sure of a person's character. ...only of the persona displayed in the work environment.
Eg...the friendliest, most productive member of a working team could be going home of an evening and abusung his family horribly, but his colleagues would never know.

I hope that makes some sense.
I'm not being argumentative, I just believe that reference gathering can very easily be both irrelevant and misleading.
 
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