These young girls travelling to Syria

dejongj said:
Funnily enough I've already mentioned that part Sam B.

You also forgot that for Catholic women it was and is in certain places also normal to cover up as a sign of respect when entering
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The Vatican for one, women need to have knees and arms covered, I've been to other churches where the hair is to be covered.
 
andy700 said:
Possibly these poor girls had a choice?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1874471.stm

So, 15 girls died, because the "religious police" refused to let them flee a burning building because they did not put their Hejab on.

Please note Sam - I have not linked to Wiki this time.
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So, it's just another example of religious interpretation to an extreme, we could find examples in any religion.
 
Byker28i said:
So, it's just another example of religious interpretation to an extreme, we could find examples in any religion.
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I have never denied that, because I am pretty anti religion for that very reason. I may have even quoted examples in an earlier post.
However, in this instance you have state backed extremism, in fact the very state where Wahhabism originated, and of course Wahhabism is the type of Islam which Choudary, Hamza and the other hate preachers spout.
Wahhabism has given us the Taliban, Al Qaeda and now of course ISIL.
 
Byker28i said:
The Vatican for one, women need to have knees and arms covered, I've been to other churches where the hair is to be covered.
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Indeed, and I find that pretty bizarre in this day and age.

It is however very different to Islamic dress code found in places like Afghanistan and Pakistan.
 
Phil V said:
Just for a lighthearted reprise:
Tim Minchin tells a story about being approached by a 'redneck' after a gig, who had been offended that Tim had alluded to Jesus' 'arabness' and it was silly that westerners had him as a blue eyed caucasian.

Tim's response that 'well he was born in Palestine, to middle eastern parents' was met with the completely straight faced assertion 'You're forgetting his father is God, and we all know he is a white man'.

:tumbleweed:
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Seen him talk about the quran and harry potter Phil?
Brilliant.
 
viv1969 said:
Seen him talk about the quran and harry potter Phil?
Brilliant.
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Yes, he has a very incisive view of the world, we saw him on the tour with the orchestra, it was amazing.
 
Where has Sam gone, I was beginning to enjoy the "banter".

I also wondered why he joined a photography forum a week ago, and has posted 68 of his 69 posts in OOF.
In the first post he introduces himself and states that he doesn't know a lot about photography.

He then resurrects a post from a couple of years back about Freemasonry.

Lets see some pictures Sam, or at least ask for some advice. Do you have a camera?
 
Phil V said:
Yes, he has a very incisive view of the world, we saw him on the tour with the orchestra, it was amazing.
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Same here.
RAH the day before that wedding :-)
 
andy700 said:
We will never agree on this Sam, despite the fact that I know from first hand experience how some (I never said all at any point) Muslim women feel about the Hejab (just a headscarf in their case, so they do wear makeup and have their hair done - because they want to), and it isn't with any pleasure.

Just as there are SOME Christians who are very devout and follow the letter of the bible's teachings, there are many others who simply pay lip service to religion.

I do however stick by my beliefs that in certain countries (and in certain communities within the UK) there is no dress freedom from women, they have to do as they are instructed, there is no free will.
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We will never agree on what? – That Jewish women wore veils 2000 years ago or that you can’t just go round deporting people to countries of their choosing?


As for your ‘first hand experience’…


andy700 said:
I don't need to click on Wikipedia Sam, because I have been studying the Middle East, Iran, Israel and Islamic extremism for the past twenty years. I have been to the Middle East several times and have friends and family there...
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Obviously we both know you used Wikipedia.


I’m not Muslim and I’ve never been to the Middle-East. However, I can provide reputable sources and give my reasoning for the comments and opinions I share, and I haven’t tried to elevate myself to some kind of ‘academic superiority’ so as to make what I say unchallengeable. However, for someone who claims to have studied extremism for over twenty years, there seems to have been a few things which have cropped up that you’ve been wrong on. Therefore, I’d prefer to see reputable sources rather than what I see as some rather dubious anecdotal and hearsay ‘evidence’, if that’s okay?



It appears you’re now trying to specify… interesting, particularly as we were talking about the wearing of hijabs and whatnot in the UK and ‘them’ not fitting into our Western traditions and dress. In fact:


andy700 said:
In certain communities, that may be true of the males, but for females in closed, conservative families (of which there are many up and down the UK, and particularly abroad from North Africa across the Middle East to Malaysia and Indonesia), the reverse is true. They are sadly controlled by a culture which forces them to adopt the Hejab.
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First of all, what is your evidence of this (or shall I just assume you know what you’re talking about because you’ve ‘studied’ it for twenty years?)?. Secondly, if this was the case, of what proportion of UK Muslims are of this denomination? – I suspect they’re proportionally very few (just like extremists) and, therefore, why do you feel this ‘fact’ is relevant?


andy700 said:
… I think that you will find that even in the UK, most girls and women from certain (Sunni Wahhabi) Moslem families have no choice over what they wear, as long as they stay within that family.
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‘I think that you will find’? Why? Because you said so?


andy700 said:
So, Sam, you really think that a woman would choose to wear a burkha/hejab in 40C heat?
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In an attempt to show your chivalrous nature, you’ve posed the above question - I answered you but you again decided to ignore it.


There are loads of documentaries you can watch on Youtube and many interviews of young Muslim women (even some which are converts or ‘reverts’ as they like to call them) who speak of how liberating they feel the veil (of whatever their preference is) is to them. Make up and hair was definitely mentioned. However, who are they to say what they do and don’t like? - You obviously know what’s best for them!


So what do you reckon we should do? ‘Ban the Burka’? because you feel it doesn’t ‘allow women to express themselves’?... How about those women who – despite your assumptions – actually want to wear one? Can they not wear one without Crown permission or a permit?


andy700 said:
I have to say Sam, the more you post, the more it seems that you are an "apologist" for Islamic dress code, and even for the extremists who go off to fight for ISIL, because they may not agree with the way we live in the UK.
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As a non-Muslim, I can’t see how the Islamic dress code can ever be an issue of contention for any other non-muslim. Therefore, how do you see me as an ‘apologist’ – Is it just because I don’t agree with what you’re claiming? I can see how Muslim men may be subject to the ‘beard-length police’ and maybe some women have debates over their head coverings… but why is that a concern to anyone else? Who cares? Personally, I think you argument is running out of steam and you’ve moved on to the finger-pointing. FYI, no I’m definitely not a leftie, I don’t own a tie-dye shirt and I don’t have lentil smoothies.


Secondly, why do you think I’m making excuses for the girls in question?.. Because I suggested that they may have been groomed?


andy700 said:
However, it doesn't alter the fact that they are murdering people who do not agree with them - they are trying to FORCE people to convert, and these people include totally innocent aid workers from Western countries, who have travelled to Syria to help the poor souls languishing in refugee camps.
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Yes, I know what ISIL are doing. How is this relevant to the (EDIT: 'our') debate? In fact, how is it relevant to any other regular Muslim in the UK?


andy700 said:
Finally, to get back to the point of the original post, I truly believe that anyone who goes to join them for whatever reason (becoming a "warrior bride" falls into this category) deserves everything that happens to them - either over there or when they attempt to return.
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Well that’s your opinion, but you still can’t go round deporting people if it renders them stateless.
 
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andy700 said:
Where has Sam gone, I was beginning to enjoy the "banter".

I also wondered why he joined a photography forum a week ago, and has posted 68 of his 69 posts in OOF.
In the first post he introduces himself and states that he doesn't know a lot about photography.

He then resurrects a post from a couple of years back about Freemasonry.

Lets see some pictures Sam, or at least ask for some advice. Do you have a camera?
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Some more banter coming your way, Andy - Sorry, I can't type that fast whilst eating my lentils and flicking through my Guardian.

As for my camera, I'm still in the process of looking (hence why I joined the forum)... pondering a Nikon D5300. However, as I have yet to take the plunge I have little else to post about... those questions will be coming thick and fast when I've hands-on.

As for the Freemasonry post, I'm a Freemason myself so, being a newbie, searched to see if there were any others. Turns out there are!

Sam
 
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andy700 said:
Possibly these poor girls had a choice?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1874471.stm

So, 15 girls died, because the "religious police" refused to let them flee a burning building because they did not put their Hejab on.

Please note Sam - I have not linked to Wiki this time.
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Yes. This story is awful and the reasoning is ridiculous... But how is it at all relevant to Muslim women in the UK? Do you think 'we' would have those kinds of scenarios here?

Thumbs up for the non-Wiki link (y)

Sam
 
I've just tried to find one of the documentaries I watched about the hijab on Youtube. I have yet to find the one I saw but I noticed this one...

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=puKosWNjY3A


Now, I can see it was uploaded by a radio (?) station so yes, they could have edited it to support their own stance, but it does seem to give a good all-round explanation of why some Muslim women choose to wear, or not to wear, the various types of headgear.

They all have their reasons - some more practical, some more religious. Either way, it's as important to me as what colour socks people wear.
 
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andy700 said:
Indeed, and I find that pretty bizarre in this day and age.

It is however very different to Islamic dress code found in places like Afghanistan and Pakistan.
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Nothing wrong with a bit of modesty. However that is it. It is not to avoid sexually enticing Muslim men. I must admit that I still find the whole concept weird that some men can't control themselves when they see a woman.

For me it actually has the reverse effect. I can't wait to find out what's underneath that cloth :devil: :p
 
This took a bit of finding: just trying to find actual figures (instead of per 100000) for murders worldwide.
The closest I could find was for 2010. Total murders worldwide 468000, compared with terrorist murders of 12533 for 2011.
(figures from UNODC)

Interesting?
 
kendo1 said:
This took a bit of finding: just trying to find actual figures (instead of per 100000) for murders worldwide.
The closest I could find was for 2010. Total murders worldwide 468000, compared with terrorist murders of 12533 for 2011.
(figures from UNODC)

Interesting?
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Interesting?
Not really.
Comparing individual unconnected murder (vast in number they may be) with terrorism is, I find, quite laughable.

However, watching the Wikipedia p***ing contest here is also amusing.
 
I don't find it laughable, and don't see why you should... if you really think of the implications.
'Normal' murders far outweigh terrorist murders by a factor of 30, but it seems people are more worried about terrorist offenses- which is what terrorists are trying to achieve.
 
kendo1 said:
I don't find it laughable, and don't see why you should... if you really think of the implications.
'Normal' murders far outweigh terrorist murders by a factor of 30, but it seems people are more worried about terrorist offenses- which is what terrorists are trying to achieve.
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Yes it is what they are trying to achieve. And guess what when they do achieve it it impacts us by far more than a factor 30. But then again many attempts do get thwarted so the general public is spared such an impact.

As I said before, in different words, you are looking for correlations where there aren't any. Or at least not in a linear approach as you are following.
 
I'm not looking for correlations where there aren't any.
I was pointing out that people seem to be more worried by 12000 odd deaths than by nearly half a million...
 
kendo1 said:
I'm not looking for correlations where there aren't any.
I was pointing out that people seem to be more worried by 12000 odd deaths than by nearly half a million...
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Surely that's the point of terrorism. Maximum impact for minimum outlay. That was the reason for public beheadings. A sickening savage barbaric act, made worse by the fact some of those people went out of their way to bring help to others they didn't even know.
 
h14nha said:
Surely that's the point of terrorism. Maximum impact for minimum outlay. That was the reason for public beheadings. A sickening savage barbaric act, made worse by the fact some of those people went out of their way to bring help to others they didn't even know.
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That's what I said in my previous post.
 
kendo1 said:
I'm not looking for correlations where there aren't any.
I was pointing out that people seem to be more worried by 12000 odd deaths than by nearly half a million...
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And I'm saying that I think you approach it from the wrong angle. The actual number of casualties is a meaningless figure in this context and pointless in a comparison.
 
viv1969 said:
Interesting?
Not really.
Comparing individual unconnected murder (vast in number they may be) with terrorism is, I find, quite laughable.

However, watching the Wikipedia p***ing contest here is also amusing.
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Care to explain that last comment Ruth?
 
crikey is this still ongoing ,them poor little darlings will have serviced half a i.s battalion by now and be well up the pudding club .while reloading bullets for re-use
 
kendo1 said:
I'm not looking for correlations where there aren't any.
I was pointing out that people seem to be more worried by 12000 odd deaths than by nearly half a million...
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There's more suicides than murders in the US...
 
Byker28i said:
There's more suicides than murders in the US...
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And what about natural deaths. That number is pretty high as well. We should be much more concerned about that.
 
I'll freely admit not to be the greatest fan of our wonderful police force, and I don't always have unbridled enthusiasm for social workers either BUT there has been a lot of criticism of the police, the school, M15, the Turkish Government, uncle Tom Cobleigh and everyone else for not stopping these girls and not letting their poor parents know that there was a risk.

Whether you trust the source or not, this article is interesting http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...just-feet-Lee-Rigby-s-killer-Muslim-demo.html
 
Garry Edwards said:
I'll freely admit not to be the greatest fan of our wonderful police force, and I don't always have unbridled enthusiasm for social workers either BUT there has been a lot of criticism of the police, the school, M15, the Turkish Government, uncle Tom Cobleigh and everyone else for not stopping these girls and not letting their poor parents know that there was a risk.

Whether you trust the source or not, this article is interesting http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...just-feet-Lee-Rigby-s-killer-Muslim-demo.html
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This does seem a new bad trend,everybody to blame parents don't seen to have to accept any responsibility for their children action anymore :(
 
viv1969 said:
And it seems the daddy of one of these young women is a bit of a radical himself...enjoying the odd jihad rally.
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Surely not :rolleyes:
 
If I could honestly be bothered I check, but I wonder whether he was one of the ones who didn't participate in the appeals of her coming home. And if not, then definitely check out that third guy as well I thought, as described originally in this thread, there was something dodgy about that.

What I especially dislike is the two faced nature of these people. I am saying these people as many people knew this for a fact. But no, none of this is their responsibility, Islam is a peaceful religion, these people do not represent Islam... Sure so why be a two faced liar about it... I hope they lift him for wasting police time etc. Throw him out of the mosque and publicly disown him from Islam.... Doubt it though as it is a peaceful religion :)
 
I'm amazed BBC and the likes haven't picked up on this yet. I would have thought these revelations were more newsworthy. Instead the focus is on the school now. Very odd, I can only imagine it is because it isn't the dad....
 
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